Indian submarine force depleting?

[hit&run]

@....Azad. Sorry but 19 detection were done by US navy in Indian ocean not IN. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks

 

[nitesh]

India is just better off buying more Scorpenes for the second line. They already have the production technology/training and with a larger order can get components cheaper for all the subs. Scorpene can have AIP added in the second batch with a refit for the first later on. Best choice if you want more sooner and cheaper.

I am of the view to order six more Scorpenes because the infrastructure is already built for it and in parallel order one more line of sub which should have BrahMos in to it with AIP from day 1. With France clearly showing they are willing to help Brzil for nuclear submarines, Armand can you confirm that Scorpene can have a small nuclear reactor to make it a nuclear submarine (I am not sure weather this is true or not)

 

[neo29]

i dont think scorpene class supports a nuclear reactor since it is a strictly diesel electric class.

armand its true that we have the infrastructure and training to build scorpene but cost of production and raw materials have increased by 40%. its highly likely that if a second line of submarines were to be scorpene, the costs may increase more. Russian s-1000 , amur and lada may be cost effective.

nevertheless what submarines are chosen, if mazgaon docks start making it, we are surely going to see delays. either we can ask country of origin to make or allow private firms like LT to make. LT made the hull of arihant and tata power made control systems.

i think the best 2nd line submarines should be the s-1000. going for scorpenes again will cost us heavily.

 

[bengalraider]

i dont think scorpene class supports a nuclear reactor since it is a strictly diesel electric class.

.

Actually the Scorpene design can be used as the base for a nuclear platform in fact the brazilians are in the process of building a nuclear boat based on the scorpene hull(albeit a suitably modified and enlarged scorpene hull).

The design of the nuclear submarine will be based on the French Scorpene model, adapted to Brazilian needs. DCNS will provide design assistance for the non-nuclear portion of this submarine.

Brazil to Construct Five French Designed Submarines

 

[..Azad]

@....Azad. Sorry but 19 detection were done by US navy in Indian ocean not IN. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks

Yes mate, on first, 19 detections seems to be a implausible but its an Indian Navy report send to MoD, I have no reason to believe that they will quote American detections. Indian have always discouraged American presence in Indian Ocean, as its 'Indian Ocean' - its India's Ocean. Even assuming that its an shared data between Indian and American navy – they must be in and around Malacca straits. Chinese patrol detections in Pacific Ocean are well published and goes by – 2006/2; 2007/6; 2008/12 (via FAS) – clearly says about Chinese reluctance for venturing into Japanese/American web of sonar’s , as compared to its patrol into Chinese sea. May be it have to do with its maritime territorial dispute with Asian nations and power projection vis-à-vis India. Sending ships into disputed territories, for a claim, is an standard operation - nations across the boards carries.

Moreover I have been told that Chinese submarines have not pioneered snorkelling technology for larger displacements under deep sea water – hence more noise while plunging. This is also a issue with India when it comes to increasing the mass of Arihant. American with its Ohio can help – a matter to there volition.

Russians are the best in non-nuclear submarines, as the detection range of there Lada class – which is the most silent in the world – is between 60 to 70 dbs. Can be a strong contender for second line production but the CII-KPGM paper posted in one of other thread reads - ‘potential deals in the pipeline’ for Navy are 7 Scorpene submarines. No doubt that any future deal will be stringently on offset terms, lets see who comes up with best portfolio.

Seawolf is the most silent when it comes to nuclear submarines, having a detection range inbetween 80-90 dbs. Akula’s are not to far behind and they are coming. With Akula at disposal and Russian help in metallurgy, anything between 90-100 dbs for Arihant will make it a killer sub in Asian waters. Chinese nuclear submarines are all above 120 dbs.

As far as midget's are concerned, a joint venture for Losos will do the job.

Putting a nuclear reactor in Scorpene will diminish its stealth, as i said India being a littoral power, needs stealth and agility than endurance - in Indian Ocean. Moreover its a matter of consideration at the time of upgradation. Right now its an era of AIP, technology which India must acquire.

 

[Armand2REP]

I am of the view to order six more Scorpenes because the infrastructure is already built for it and in parallel order one more line of sub which should have BrahMos in to it with AIP from day 1. With France clearly showing they are willing to help Brzil for nuclear submarines, Armand can you confirm that Scorpene can have a small nuclear reactor to make it a nuclear submarine (I am not sure weather this is true or not)

A nucleare Scorpène... not tall enough for any known reactors. Even K48 would pop the top on such a small submarine. It is the most compact reactor in the world but as you can see here, it takes up alot of space.

The Brasilians are going to have to take a reduced power reactor and extended hull if they want to use the Scorpene design. If they are content on an SSN with power generation of 30MW and top speed of 20 knots, it can be done. Otherwise the whole thing will have to be redesigned. This type of compromise is not acceptable to nuclear navies, but a nucelar Scorpene with the same speed as the conventional isn't a bad submarine anyway you cut it.

 

[bengalraider]

A nucleare Scorpène... not tall enough for any known reactors. Even K48 would pop the top on such a small submarine. It is the most compact reactor in the world but as you can see here, it takes up alot of space.

The Brasilians are going to have to take a reduced power reactor and extended hull if they want to use the Scorpene design. If they are content on an SSN with power generation of 30MW and top speed of 20 knots, it can be done. Otherwise the whole thing will have to be redesigned. This type of compromise is not acceptable to nuclear navies, but a nucelar Scorpene with the same speed as the conventional isn't a bad submarine anyway you cut it.

Apparently Brazil is going in for a reactor with a power generation of 48 MW

According to Brazilian reports in late May 2004, a special budget of approximately $7.8 million was to be released immediately for the completion of the land-based nuclear reactor prototype RENAP-11 (Reator Naval de Potência de 11 Megawatts), which was expected to become operational in 2005.[2]— The RENAP-11 will then be modified for use in the SNAC-2 nuclear-powered submarine program (which will reportedly require a 48 megawatt PWR reactor).

NTI: Submarine: Brazil Capabilities

 

[neo29]

with various articles on the web including wiki, it seems india already sent RFI for 2nd line of submarines to Rosoboronexport, French (Armaris), HDW and other firms. they were to issue tender or RFP in 2008-09.
there is no reaction from the government after the media attack on it, regarding this issue.

so is the deal under wraps?

Indian Navy Project-75A: RFIs Issued for Six Advanced Submarines; Rosoboronexport, Armaris, HDW in the Fray | India Defence

 

[StealthSniper]

Although I'm all for news that will maybe wake up our government and get things moving I don't think we are doing that bad on the submarine front. First of all we have done extensive refits on the 10 Russian subs (should be good till 2020) and on the 4 german subs. The other 2 submarines we have the INS VELGA and INS VAGLI are old and even then after the refit they still should be good for a bit if needed. Also we should be getting all of our Scorpenes done by 2018 and have gotten started on Project 75B for 6 more conventional subs. On the Nuke front we will have hypothetically 1 or 2 ATV's by 2015 and have 1 or 2 leased Nuke subs from Russia (NERPA class).


We are looking at maybe 18 conventional submarines by 2015 and maybe 3 or 4 operational nuclear submarines by 2015. Yes this number looks small compared to China but I have always stressed that we are going for Quality over Quantity and the Indian Navy is following this to a tee. Also once our indigenous production speeds up (it will once we mastered Scorpene and Arihant) we will be able to close the gap with China number wise but still have a technology edge with help from Russia and France.


Remember guys we have saved almost a decade already with Russia helping us alot on the Arihant or we would be very behind China right now on Nuclear tech and submarine design.

 

[kuku]

The huge beuracratic monster called Ministry of Defence will always be there to ensure that it delays the very purpose of its creation, quite ironical.

 

[Armand2REP]

Although I'm all for news that will maybe wake up our government and get things moving I don't think we are doing that bad on the submarine front. First of all we have done extensive refits on the 10 Russian subs (should be good till 2020) and on the 4 german subs. The other 2 submarines we have the INS VELGA and INS VAGLI are old and even then after the refit they still should be good for a bit if needed. Also we should be getting all of our Scorpenes done by 2018 and have gotten started on Project 75B for 6 more conventional subs. On the Nuke front we will have hypothetically 1 or 2 ATV's by 2015 and have 1 or 2 leased Nuke subs from Russia (NERPA class).

You can write off the Foxtrots right now. Their service life is only 20 years and have surpassed that long ago. As an Indian admiral said, "they are muesem relics." Out of 16 subs, IN can only field 9. By 2012 63% will be past service life. You will only have a fleet of worn-out Kilos until the Scorpene arrives.

We are looking at maybe 18 conventional submarines by 2015 and maybe 3 or 4 operational nuclear submarines by 2015. Yes this number looks small compared to China but I have always stressed that we are going for Quality over Quantity and the Indian Navy is following this to a tee. Also once our indigenous production speeds up (it will once we mastered Scorpene and Arihant) we will be able to close the gap with China number wise but still have a technology edge with help from Russia and France.

By 2015, you are looking at 8 SSKs if the Scorpene arrives within a reasonable time. You talk about nuke subs, but Arihant doesn't even have a reactor, you will be lucky to have that by 2015 much less 3-4. IN's submarine force will be reduced to that of Pakistan, much less talking about competing with China. Delays over acquisitions cannot go on, the situation is critical. The second batch of subs must be signed soon as well.

Remember guys we have saved almost a decade already with Russia helping us alot on the Arihant or we would be very behind China right now on Nuclear tech and submarine design.

They haven't gotten you a working reactor that fits Arihant.

 

[badguy2000]

Although I'm all for news that will maybe wake up our government and get things moving I don't think we are doing that bad on the submarine front. First of all we have done extensive refits on the 10 Russian subs (should be good till 2020) and on the 4 german subs. The other 2 submarines we have the INS VELGA and INS VAGLI are old and even then after the refit they still should be good for a bit if needed. Also we should be getting all of our Scorpenes done by 2018 and have gotten started on Project 75B for 6 more conventional subs. On the Nuke front we will have hypothetically 1 or 2 ATV's by 2015 and have 1 or 2 leased Nuke subs from Russia (NERPA class).


We are looking at maybe 18 conventional submarines by 2015 and maybe 3 or 4 operational nuclear submarines by 2015. Yes this number looks small compared to China but I have always stressed that we are going for Quality over Quantity and the Indian Navy is following this to a tee. Also once our indigenous production speeds up (it will once we mastered Scorpene and Arihant) we will be able to close the gap with China number wise but still have a technology edge with help from Russia and France.


Remember guys we have saved almost a decade already with Russia helping us alot on the Arihant or we would be very behind China right now on Nuclear tech and submarine design.

Pls don't count on Russia's help too much.
Russia is like a clay Buddha fording the river---it is hardly able to upgrade its own defendce industry, let alone help India's.

 

[anoop_mig25]

india navy in mess

i thought at least IN house was in order but it seems i was wrong.what wrong is with our babu`s working in defense ministry.whats hell with our defence minister .Since the time he had became minister every single tender whether related to army or navy or air force has been delayed.what is happening in defence minstry.if scorpion submarine are delayed then their contractors must be fined .
this babus had got impression that in future india is not going to be at war with any country.Specially with at china or pakistan.on the other hand both china and pakistan are fast upgrading their militrary.:thumbs_thmbdn::thumbs_thmbdn:

 

[Dark Sorrow]

An intresting picture regarging PLAN fleet deployment.
I have a question, have the brazilans themself miniturized the nuclear reactor?

 

[kuku]

i thought at least IN house was in order but it seems i was wrong.what wrong is with our babu`s working in defense ministry.whats hell with our defence minister.
Since the time he had became minister every single tender whether related to army or navy or air force has been delayed.what is happening in defence minstry.

if scorpion submarine are delayed then their contractors must be fined .
this babus had got impression that in future india is not going to be at war with any country.Specially with at china or pakistan.on the other hand both china and pakistan are fast upgrading their militrary.:thumbs_thmbdn::thumbs_thmbdn:

Shipbuilding and increasing a nations naval strength are things that happen over a long period of time, several decades infact, the whole system is to blame, not this defence minister or the one before him, they are all part of a system that eats up the the very purpose of its creation.

Submarines are imporatant assets which require time and money to buildup, the associated technology is not easy, keeping all the records to make sure that we know the several sounds in the ocean and what they mean is no easy task.

It is here that Russian Navy is far ahead of us and the PLA-N, and it is here that we must learn (not that they will support us with a structure they took years building up).

Scorpion submarines are just a small part of the equation, in order to be ready for the future ocean and the players in it we have to develop a domestic capacity to build and operate advanced platforms.

The advantage we have is that the worlds consulting is open for us and our cheque books, which can help us narrow down the gap faster, the recent talk of Russian nuclear submarine lease is one such example, with one sign on a cheque we ride far ahead of PLA-Ns technical capability, even though it might take too much money and effort to get ahead in operational capability.

First we have to resolve this bureaucracy and government mess, which will only happen together with reforms, the armed forces and the ministry of defence sit behind this comfortable blanket of national security, which gives them immunity from any accountability, which can only breed corruption and decadence.

 

[StealthSniper]

You can write off the Foxtrots right now. Their service life is only 20 years and have surpassed that long ago. As an Indian admiral said, "they are muesem relics." Out of 16 subs, IN can only field 9. By 2012 63% will be past service life. You will only have a fleet of worn-out Kilos until the Scorpene arrives.

I agree that the Foxtrots are old and should be out of service but you are dead wrong on the fact that by 2012 we will have only 63% service life and worn out kilo's for the remaining 14 submarines. First off the oldest type 209 HDW german submarine is from 1986 and the same for the Russian Kilo class subs. You have AT LEAST 20 years service life for the German and Russian submarines even before it's first refit, and the Indian Navy knew this. So what they did was they did an extensive refit for both the Type 209 and the Kilo class which included the most vital components such as (hull structure, electronic systems, and battery change) I can go in much more detail if needed. This refit alone will make the Kilo and Type 209 last unit 2016 to 2024 and I will get the link confirming this as soon as I find it.


The person who made the original article is not looking at the facts and is giving the Indian people wrong information. Even if we have no Scorpenes and other subs built we have a GUARANTEE OF 14 conventional submarines operational at all times from 2010 to 2024 and they are in good condition and will be more lethal than when we first got them (upgraded missiles, powerful electronics etc.)

By 2015, you are looking at 8 SSKs if the Scorpene arrives within a reasonable time. You talk about nuke subs, but Arihant doesn't even have a reactor, you will be lucky to have that by 2015 much less 3-4. IN's submarine force will be reduced to that of Pakistan, much less talking about competing with China. Delays over acquisitions cannot go on, the situation is critical. The second batch of subs must be signed soon as well.

I shouldn't even reply back to you because you are so wrong it makes me angry. I don't know where the hell you got the number of 8 from but it proves to me you like to post crap and ignore the facts that hurt your pride.

They haven't gotten you a working reactor that fits Arihant.

Again you are wrong and I'll prove it later but name a country that will provide the Indian navy a NERPA class submarine (which makes US crap it's pants) and also technology and consultation on a nuclear submarine that's quieter and better than the Chinese submarines. Only one and that's Russia, I know it hurts you inside but deal with it.

 

[StealthSniper]

Pls don't count on Russia's help too much.
Russia is like a clay Buddha fording the river---it is hardly able to upgrade its own defendce industry, let alone help India's.

Russia is close to number 1 in the world in submarine building and technology so stop posting stuff that makes you happy inside. Our Arihant (the first nuclear submarine we ever made) is quieter then your submarine and I also have a link I posted a long time ago to show you:


China’s Noisy Nuclear Submarines FAS Strategic Security Blog


Oh and just so you know this is from the Federation of American scientist, so it's probably the most unbiased report ever.:goodstuff:

 

[neo29]

i have a feeling that the order for 2nd line of submarines are already given. its probably kept a secret. in 2006 itself IN was given presentation for lada class submarines. in 2007-08 rfi was sent to Rosoboronexport, Armaris, HDW. An rfp was also sent in 2008-09. ( source wiki )

 

[Armand2REP]

I agree that the Foxtrots are old and should be out of service but you are dead wrong on the fact that by 2012 we will have only 63% service life and worn out kilo's for the remaining 14 submarines. First off the oldest type 209 HDW german submarine is from 1986 and the same for the Russian Kilo class subs. You have AT LEAST 20 years service life for the German and Russian submarines even before it's first refit, and the Indian Navy knew this. So what they did was they did an extensive refit for both the Type 209 and the Kilo class which included the most vital components such as (hull structure, electronic systems, and battery change) I can go in much more detail if needed. This refit alone will make the Kilo and Type 209 last unit 2016 to 2024 and I will get the link confirming this as soon as I find it.

Sure, you find that link. My information came off the CAG report.

NEW DELHI: The Indian Navy has received flak from the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) which says in its report released on Friday that the submarine fleet is ageing and by 2012, 63 percent of the vessels would have completed their operational life.

Due to ageing fleet and prolonged refit schedules, the average operational availability of the submarines is as low as 48 percent.

'Indian Navy's submarine fleet in shambles' - dnaindia.com

So revise my prior number of 9 to less than 8.

The person who made the original article is not looking at the facts and is giving the Indian people wrong information. Even if we have no Scorpenes and other subs built we have a GUARANTEE OF 14 conventional submarines operational at all times from 2010 to 2024 and they are in good condition and will be more lethal than when we first got them (upgraded missiles, powerful electronics etc.)

The person who made the article was looking at the CAG report, and it is correct. India's submarine fleet is in shambles.

I shouldn't even reply back to you because you are so wrong it makes me angry. I don't know where the hell you got the number of 8 from but it proves to me you like to post crap and ignore the facts that hurt your pride.

Don't bother arguing with me, argue with CAG. They're the ones who made the report.

Again you are wrong and I'll prove it later but name a country that will provide the Indian navy a NERPA class submarine (which makes US crap it's pants) and also technology and consultation on a nuclear submarine that's quieter and better than the Chinese submarines. Only one and that's Russia, I know it hurts you inside but deal with it.

France doesn't have any problem helping Brazil make an SSN. I really don't see your point when Russia is only leasing it for the price it costs to build one. RusNav can't afford to operate or maintain it. It really is a stroke of genius by Rosboronexport, they get $1 billion in cash, they get to sell IN millions in parts and they get it back in good working condition, just brilliant!

 

[kuku]

You talk about nuke subs, but Arihant doesn't even have a reactor, you will be lucky to have that by 2015 much less 3-4.

They haven't gotten you a working reactor that fits Arihant.

you actually think that the technology demonstrator is doing its sea trials without a reactor?

Sure, you find that link. My information came off the CAG report.

The person who made the article was looking at the CAG report, and it is correct. India's submarine fleet is in shambles.

Don't bother arguing with me, argue with CAG. They're the ones who made the report.

France doesn't have any problem helping Brazil make an SSN. I really don't see your point when Russia is only leasing it for the price it costs to build one. RusNav can't afford to operate or maintain it. It really is a stroke of genius by Rosboronexport, they get $1 billion in cash, they get to sell IN millions in parts and they get it back in good working condition, just brilliant!

Its very obvious that India with a build rate less than 1 every year will have a huge trouble keeping the required force of submarines.

The delays in the current submarine line have compounded the problems, this will also delay the next submarine line if things are dragged on for too long, right now the only option is to agree to the French demands for more money, stuck between a rock and a hard place, as money is not alloted that easily within the current multiple ministry system.

Let the French help built Brazilian submarine touch water first or at least some program details of the deal come out into the media.

The need for the Russian submarine is for keeping a force of trained submariners (trained on board a nuclear submarine) which is a very complex task, as without it the indigenous SSBN and SSN projects will have to spend a huge time making the submarines operational, keeping a well trained crew is as vital as technology.

The package of Russian sub contains the submarine, its support and maintenance, shore and sea based training, and continuous technical help in the submarines operation, which is quite a comprehensive program a similar deal from any other nation would cost much more.