Indian Special Forces (archived)

[Suryavanshi]

@Violent peaceful @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @abingdonboy
Question:

What exactly are the things (equipment not clothing), that these guys got that ours lack ?

Low profile belt.

Multiband Radio.

Camouflaged helmet

Tactical Vest

Communication set are almost never present.

NVG

Laser range finder.

Proper scope and guns

Pump action rifle.

Military vehicle.

Drones

Flash bang

Tactical knife.

GPS

Any many other things.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Tonbo already produces quad NVG.

All that's left is for Govements to grant them some monetary help to localize all its component expand their manufacturing lines and increase R&D budget.

Right now some of its parts may be imported but if asked to localize their products in exchange for monetary help than I don't think they'll have any problem.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Dual tube NVGs, secure Comms & good plate carriers for starters.

for main course direct com with AF pilots on secure com..superior training..k9 squads, superior clothing and protection,

and for dessert good shoes!

 

[mupper]

Wouldn't be carrying NVG in day mission...?

That's mission dependent.....just because it's daytime doesn't mean you won't run into something requiring NODs on. Buildings, caves, sewers, basements etc etc have all been hit at various times.....or just being a protracted OP, it might be 6am when you start the day, but it won't be 4pm the same day you finish it.

 

[itsme]

Also, silencers, dedicated air wing, tactical gloves, MRAPs.

 

[Gessler]

@Violent peaceful @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @abingdonboy
Question:

What exactly are the things (equipment not clothing), that these guys got that ours lack ?

Basic things for our SFs to standardize on would be:

Proper plate carriers that don't sag down like most current FLCs do, leaving vital organs like heart & lungs exposed. Also, making sure these plate carriers are not like those designed by DRDO or BARC (which just carry a plate and nothing else, no MOLLE), which requires wearing an FLC on top of the plate carrier (like the Paras in the pics have)...whereas a modern carrier is supposed to effectively do the job of both. And is infinitely adaptable to the user & his role on the battlefield.

As someone else mentioned, a battle belt - helps add a lot of flexibility to how the shooter might want to configure his loadout, and allows for easy access to such things as a hip holster and dump pouch.

High-cut helmets with a comms headset (and individual radio). Uses need no explaining.

And none of these are particularly high-tech stuff either...domestic companies like MKU can easily come up with solutions if proper requirements are formulated & expressed (with exception of headset).

Another area our SFs are lacking is that they are having to do with the same bi-ocular NVGs that the infantry regulars use (which btw are dated & cumbersome). And the only alternative is to use a monocular.

A modern binocular NVG (let alone a quad-NOD) is very much needed. Again this requirement can be met domestically by Tonbo Imaging (for both binocular and quad-NOD needs).

 

[Gessler]

@Violent peaceful @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @abingdonboy
Question:
What exactly are the things (equipment not clothing), that these guys got that ours lack ?

Coming to the weapons, the Tavor may have been cutting edge back in early 2000s when we bought them but is no longer today (at least not the version our military SFs are using which is the basic TAR-21).

Given we are one of the first (if not the first) real-world users which put the Tavor through the paces in many obverse environments (desert, tropical jungles, extremely high-altitude tundra etc.), our inputs are likely to have been invaluable to IWI in designing and developing further iterations of the Tavor like the X-95, SAR-21 etc.

Unfortunately, forces under MoD haven't standardized on any of these improved variants. So we paid the price for going with a new, untested platform but got none of the reward.

The Tavor as it exists with Paras isn't the best gun around. Majority of SOF units the world over (including Israeli ones like Sayeret Matkal, Shayatet 13 or Police units like Yamam) would much prefer an AR-15 platform. The fact that many Paras still prefer to carry M4s (which are even older than TAR-21s) speaks volumes.

The TAR-21 lacks primarily in three areas:

• Bullpup design & position of ejection port makes transition shooting uncomfortable, difficult. It does have design features meant to deflect the casings, but the gases still make it not an ideal platform for those who are big on transitions especially in CQC.

• Not ideal to suppress. Also, exacerbates the already-present problem of gases from ejection port. New Tavor 7 incorporates a 4-position gas regulator to deal with the issue but this isn't on 5.56 TAR-21.

• Not very customizable. Yes, it can still take a day-night sight combo but due to lack of full-length rail they have to go with a "one size fits all" approach. Also, the options are extremely limited. No quad-rail on the handguard so use of stability-enhancing grips isn't possible either (something which even non-SF units like RR are routinely using nowadays).

Some of these issues were addressed in subsequent iterations of the Tavor but like I said, our SFs haven't adopted any of them. Probably thanks to procurement lethargy. Buying weapons for an entire regiment involves hundreds of crores so not something that could be done at unit-level either.

I would much prefer the SFs to adopt a modern AR-15 platform like Daniel Defense MK18 which has excellent reliability (equal if not better than Tavor), and also acquits itself exceptionally well in all the areas where TAR-21 comes up short, as well.

But it appears we are intent on the FN SCAR...fine. I just hope the decision was made after studying inputs from units who have been using that platform (like SG, SFF, SPG etc.) and not just because its considered a bling rifle (like the Tavor was back in the day, and still is, in a way).

Personally, I don't think SCAR can match up to the raw functionality (and reputation) of a platform like the MK18.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

NSG Commandos in Delhi for Republic Day security

 

[porky_kicker]

Basic things for our SFs to standardize on would be:

Proper plate carriers that don't sag down like most current FLCs do, leaving vital organs like heart & lungs exposed. Also, making sure these plate carriers are not like those designed by DRDO or BARC (which just carry a plate and nothing else, no MOLLE), which requires wearing an FLC on top of the plate carrier (like the Paras in the pics have)...whereas a modern carrier is supposed to effectively do the job of both. And is infinitely adaptable to the user & his role on the battlefield.

As someone else mentioned, a battle belt - helps add a lot of flexibility to how the shooter might want to configure his loadout, and allows for easy access to such things as a hip holster and dump pouch.

High-cut helmets with a comms headset (and individual radio). Uses need no explaining.

And none of these are particularly high-tech stuff either...domestic companies like MKU can easily come up with solutions if proper requirements are formulated & expressed (with exception of headset).

Another area our SFs are lacking is that they are having to do with the same bi-ocular NVGs that the infantry regulars use (which btw are dated & cumbersome). And the only alternative is to use a monocular.

A modern binocular NVG (let alone a quad-NOD) is very much needed. Again this requirement can be met domestically by Tonbo Imaging (for both binocular and quad-NOD needs).

Armasen Tactical

Indian company which specialises in all kinds of gear , go through their timeline and website for more info

 

[Waanar]

Kashmir is a pussy version of Afghanistan...Afghanistan is another ball game all together.

400 taliban attacking 50 us troops...this doesn't happen in kashmir.

True, but then again, those 400 are foreign combatant, also known as "A10's BRRRRRRT ammunition's favorite BRRRTING spot".
CRPF has had instances of Naxals attacking in hundreds with similar Blufor ratio. Results were disastrous. Hopefully, it's different for the Triservice, should such a thing ever occur...

 

[Deathstar]

Armasen Tactical

Indian company which specialises in all kinds of gear , go through their timeline and website for more info

Yet we either ignore it or simply choose to import.

 

[kurup]

nagaland special police force.
View attachment 41939 View attachment 41940 View attachment 41941 View attachment 41942

Much better uniformity than een our military ........ I would love to see this kind of standardization in our military ..... Good work Nagaland Police

 

[Gessler]

Armasen Tactical

Indian company which specialises in all kinds of gear , go through their timeline and website for more info

I know about them. CEO of Armasen and me follow each other on Twitter.

 

[abingdonboy]

don't forget they fucked enemies inside their own territory 2 times. there are very less battle hardened units in the world and para sf is one of them.

It's not really that remarkable when you break it down.

Sometimes I wonder if we are the only folks noticing these things. Do these thoughts ever come to high rankers mind or are they simply ignorant. Surely they have trained with the best troops in the world so they must have a idea what a proper SOF is supposed to look like.

Ignorance, indifference and arrogance.

SOD and the SOCOM that should follow it are literally the only hope for Indian SOFs, get these units out of the grip of moronic leadership with a Soviet/Colonial mindset.

Kashmir is a pussy version of Afghanistan...Afghanistan is another ball game all together.

400 taliban attacking 50 us troops...this doesn't happen in kashmir.

This is why I always said an Indian contingent being sent to Afghanistan operating with the same equipment (no plate carriers, sh!tty small arms, soft skin vehicles, no NODs etc etc) and tactics as they do in Kashmir would be ripped apart in weeks, it would be an utter bloodbath.

All gear reserved for Army Day demonstration before audience (also *sunglasses*).

Aside from the very modest upgrade of a rail for the ACH this isn't even that impressive if you look closely, is it? A FLC- not even a basic plate carrier, call centre hands-free device plugged into a radio handset etc etc but at least he has a "cool" moustache- says it all doesn't it? These guys are all for show, no concept of being the silent professionals SOFs in other countries pride themselves in being.

How far behind are we?

Easily 35+ years.

And Do our teams which go on special missions ,NOT counter terror ops , but special missions are equipped like this or better?

No indication of this, in fact every time I see Indian SOFs in "real world" ops I get more and more depressed and then how they present themselves now with model 1974 helmets, mismatched uniforms and boots and FLCs at International exercises with other SOFs it gives me little hope that things are going to get better.


There just isn't any seriousness to Indian SOFs and that really puzzles me, after 50+ years fighting this fight these guys should be the best of the best and utterly specialised but instead they are basically just infantry, there are units that have fought similar fights for a fraction of the time who have utterly transformed themselves in the process.

What exactly are the things (equipment not clothing), that these guys got that ours lack ?

In a word? Everything.


Compare for yourself, there is not ONE item that Indian SOFs possess that is world class or would find itself with an operator of a foreign SOF unit.

View attachment 41973
NSG Commandos in Delhi for Republic Day security

The only specialist unit in India that actually inspires any confidence but really there's no need for that camo scarf, it doesn't fit with their uniform standards and makes them look unprofessional also it's time for these guys to update their primary weapon (MP-5), plate carriers (these ones don't look great) and helmets- high cut with integrated coins will solve many of the messy load outs I've seen them running lately.

I know about them. CEO of Armasen and me follow each other on Twitter.

He's a great guy and really knows what he's talking about, can only wish his wisdom and sense makes some sort of impact on Indian customers.

 

[ezsasa]

It's not really that remarkable when you break it down.



Ignorance, indifference and arrogance.

SOD and the SOCOM that should follow it are literally the only hope for Indian SOFs, get these units out of the grip of moronic leadership with a Soviet/Colonial mindset.




This is why I always said an Indian contingent being sent to Afghanistan operating with the same equipment (no plate carriers, sh!tty small arms, soft skin vehicles, no NODs etc etc) and tactics as they do in Kashmir would be ripped apart in weeks, it would be an utter bloodbath.



Aside from the very modest upgrade of a rail for the ACH this isn't even that impressive if you look closely, is it? A FLC- not even a basic plate carrier, call centre hands-free device plugged into a radio handset etc etc but at least he has a "cool" moustache- says it all doesn't it? These guys are all for show, no concept of being the silent professionals SOFs in other countries pride themselves in being.



Easily 35+ years.

No indication of this, in fact every time I see Indian SOFs in "real world" ops I get more and more depressed and then how they present themselves now with model 1974 helmets, mismatched uniforms and boots and FLCs at International exercises with other SOFs it gives me little hope that things are going to get better.


There just isn't any seriousness to Indian SOFs and that really puzzles me, after 50+ years fighting this fight these guys should be the best of the best and utterly specialised but instead they are basically just infantry, there are units that have fought similar fights for a fraction of the time who have utterly transformed themselves in the process.



In a word? Everything.


Compare for yourself, there is not ONE item that Indian SOFs possess that is world class or would find itself with an operator of a foreign SOF unit.



The only specialist unit in India that actually inspires any confidence but really there's no need for that camo scarf, it doesn't fit with their uniform standards and makes them look unprofessional also it's time for these guys to update their primary weapon (MP-5), plate carriers (these ones don't look great) and helmets- high cut with integrated coins will solve many of the messy load outs I've seen them running lately.


He's a great guy and really knows what he's talking about, can only wish his wisdom and sense makes some sort of impact on Indian customers.

Maybe you should make a video explaining your points, after all in a democracy public opinion matters.

In 2020 I am coming to your point of view, I had hoped from 2016 onwards this would be resolved in 2-3 years. Apparently not. Kit does not seem to be in priority list.

You still have your YouTube channel?

 

[abingdonboy]

Maybe you should make a video explaining your points, after all in a democracy public opinion matters.

In 2020 I am coming to your point of view, I had hoped from 2016 onwards this would be resolved in 2-3 years. Apparently not. Kit does not seem to be in priority list.

You still have your YouTube channel?

Still have it although I don't have the same time to put into anything other than work haha

But I see your point and it's totally valid, the only reason this situation exists is because the leadership and public are ignorant so exposure would be beneficial .

 

[Suryavanshi]

Terrorist ranking in my opinion.

1 US aided Taliban against Russian campaign
The spirit of Taliban was on another level when they were backed by the US, Osama being one of the fighters at that time.


2 Chechen Separatist.

The Chechens were on another level before and after the collapse of Soviet.
Even with Brutal style of the Russian amry they gave a tough fight so much so that a truce was the only option.

3 Modern Taliban

The one during early 2000s.

4 ISIS Syris and Iraq

During its peak ISIS was a almsot an unparalleled terror force that were giving tough fight to the state.

5 Kashmir terrorist force during the 90s

6 Boko Haram


Honorable mentions: bonian forces

 

[ezsasa]

Still have it although I don't have the same time to put into anything other than work haha

But I see your point and it's totally valid, the only reason this situation exists is because the leadership and public are ignorant so exposure would be beneficial .

Saurav Jha’s Delhi defence review was mentioning they plan to do a series of explainer videos on Indian Military subjects.

If you or @Yusuf know the chap, maybe you can get him interested in making one on this topic. You guys are old timers, maybe Saurav will consider this topic.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

Better quality images of NSG Commandos

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

True, but then again, those 400 are foreign combatant, also known as "A10's BRRRRRRT ammunition's favorite BRRRTING spot".
CRPF has had instances of Naxals attacking in hundreds with similar Blufor ratio. Results were disastrous. Hopefully, it's different for the Triservice, should such a thing ever occur...

Tell me one thing..can 50 troops face 400..is it even fair?

The point to note is what firepower can you bring to the table once u r fcked... and US brings the most.