Indian Sniper Equipment & Tactics

[rkhanna]

The Number 1 COUNTER Sniper system is a Time on Target Artillery Barrage.

The Number 1 ANTI Sniper System is another sniper.

unfortunately when it comes to developing and employing snipers we are a bit behind the Curve with respect to the Pakis.

 

[sum1]

How do we know about effectiveness of our snipers when Pakis wont acknowledge being sniped and we dont talk about it?

 

[rkhanna]

How do we know about effectiveness of our snipers when Pakis wont acknowledge being sniped and we dont talk about it?

You are seeming to confuse a Designated Marskmen with a sniper. A Sniper as a weapon system is a whole different beast

Our Sniper School's have only been started to be developed in the last 5-10 years and are still being evolved slowly. Internally we have low value for Snipers. Our Orbat thrust has always been on Designated Marksmen. (we learned this from the Soviets). The concept of a spotter itself (outside of the NSG) is relatively new. the Quality of a Spotter makes or breaks a Sniper. We have no unified Sniper SOP/instruction.

Pak Sniper Schools and tactics on their employment are sadly slightly ahead of ours. (again i am not saying we are bad and again i am in no way talking about equipment). A knife in the hand of a good sniper can be just as deadly.

Lastly effectiveness of our snipers are a moot point when are ROE's are crap. Example - When SF soldiers after deep LRRP and Recce set up an ambush they have to announce their presence before opening fire.

The day we have multiple sniper teams sent out into the wilderness in J&K (by the border, across it, within the Valley) to develop intel and engage targets of opportunity at will our "Sniper's" will always be less effective.

A sniper is an offensive weapon system.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

How do we know about effectiveness of our snipers when Pakis wont acknowledge being sniped and we dont talk about it?

Talking purely on the scores our snipers have a very good kill score on the LOC.

The last year alone 28 sniper kills by us.But that was mostly of SF snipers.

SF regularly deploys sniper teams on the LOC.

Infantry sniping is not even sniping.Its a designated marksman who mostly has little help to achieve their objectives.

 

[rkhanna]

Talking purely on the scores our snipers have a very good kill score on the LOC.

The last year alone 28 sniper kills by us.But that was mostly of SF snipers.

SF regularly deploys sniper teams on the LOC.

Infantry sniping is not even sniping.Its a designated marksman who mostly has little help to achieve their objectives.

The problem is that from the ground up infrastructure and mindset for developing "sniper" capability in the broader powers to be is still highly limited.

Can you believe the fact that The new OFB sniper rifle was asked to be made of wood architecture by the Army?

Lastly - number of kills is irrelevant because of the target rich environment.

I rather have multiple Sniper teams in 7-10 days deployment along the LOC / regular known infil routes / , etc living off the land and hunting anything that moves. And every 7-10 days these teams are switched out and we do it constantly through the year. The same teams do shallow infils across the LOC and keep overwatch of launch pads / attack C&C and forward artillery positions. They can do silent recce with SIGINT/ELINT equipment and give early warning to SF patrols waiting in Ambush. Maximum damage with minimum footprint.

Today well within a couple of Km within OUR side of the LOC the Pak Army and Jihadis have free hand. Our regular patrols are predictable and stretched and under tons of pressure because they usually either stumble upon somthing or are reacting to stale intel. Imagine how much of a Value add these Sniper Patrols will be.

All I am saying is that if used effectively the Sniper Teams can be more potent than Artillery

 

[Johny_Baba]

We need to replace designated marksmen cartridge 7.62x51 or 54 with 30.06 Springfield,it had better range and muzzle energy.
For precision sniping 338,408 cheytac ,416 barrett and .50 bmg.

lol Naah bro.

7.62 x 51mm is actually improvised (and shortened) .30-06 springfield with better primer and propellents which give it similar ballistic properties in overall comparatively shorter and lighter package.

Though i agree with second line.

 

[Bornubus]

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[Raj Malhotra]

As a anti material rifle tiring at 2,000 yards, you do not have to conceal much, yet it is get for soldiers to stay hidden and quietly escape.

As sniper rifle, two man team will carry it to its firing location. Magazine weight and the barrel weight in the smaller round comes down quickly to manageable.

What is a manageable weight?

If you ask the opponent who is hell bent on rejecting local Vidhawansak, the manageable weight is low although on a long march a soldier does carry close 40 pound plus his rifle and ammunition.

A proponent will argue to distribute the weight between two man team.

Indian army prefers to buy everything abroad and stick the bill to the tax payer.

Army always wins the argument, that is why the Army is looking for a sniper rifle with plastic stock and Titanium made $30,000 sniper rifle. Add to that $800 telescope for proper sighting. It is the tax payer who are going to pay the bills, the Army does not care.

If the politicians in MOD insist on local Vidhwansak, they will test the hell out of it until it fails. Then they will reject it.

Army is still testing the shit out of Dhanush but did not even bat a eyelid when M777 barrel imploded.
As ATAGS cleared all tests, so they have asked for improvements .
No actual orders except 18 (not 114) Dhanush.

 

[rkhanna]

Army is still testing the shit out of Dhanush but did not even bat a eyelid when M777 barrel imploded.
As ATAGS cleared all tests, so they have asked for improvements .
No actual orders except 18 (not 114) Dhanush.

As per army AAR report the M777 barrel explosion was due to faulty ammo .

Faulty ammo issues have been reported even in testing of indegineous systems

 

[cobra commando]

Watch: How soldiers are being trained by CSWT Indore

 

[ezsasa]

Night sight for Dragnov(small numbers) ...................................

 

[ezsasa]

Am I the only one who didn’t know about this?

1A1 mod to DMR....

One more change in butt stock with cheek rest, it could as well become interim DMR, it does have 800 MT range...

I don’t want to get into free floating barrel discussion now...

 

[binayak95]

Am I the only one who didn’t know about this?

1A1 mod to DMR....

One more change in butt stock with cheek rest, it could as well become interim DMR, it does have 800 MT range...

I don’t want to get into free floating barrel discussion now...

yeah I saw this for the first time too. Bloody OFB makes things so haphazardly. To make a SLR into a DMR is very sensible but goddamnit, this is such a klutz.

Several improvements are needed:

a. get rid of the fixed iron sights and add foldable ones, that will allow you to reduce the height of the optics. Now its bloody 6-7 inches above the top cover of the receiver.

b. extend the P rail all the way over the top cover - increases the flexibility of optic choice. and allows for the user to rest his cheek on the butt itself without the jugaadu cheek rest.

c. Get modern butts. PLEASE. Ones with changeable length of pull and adjustable cheek rest.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

The problem with Indian Army doctrine is that it is very outdated
We continue to concentrate on high profile gold plated costly imports while neglecting the basics
We have to evolve four parts of our doctrine
The first part relates to providing good halographic sights and low power optics across the board to all soldiers
The second aspect is to provide at least two DMR Rifles to each Platoon
DMR Rifles can be provided easily quickly and cheaply by mounting a side scope on our SLRs which are in storage along with a bipod
It is more than adequate that marksman can hit targets up to 300-50p M and modified SLR would be adequate for the job
Sniper is IIIrd category, which has to be developed as an effective force multiplier
Ofb already has Bolt action Rifles in the category of 7.62 x 51 and 7.62 x 63 which can act as effective sniper rifles
These Rifles will be adequate for a range of 600 to 900 m and outside of Hollywood it is very difficult to shoot beyond this range in actual field
Only the soldiers which have shown ability and capability to shoot accurately beyond 900m require to be equipped with better imported sniper Rifles
To enhance the effectiveness of our snipers we would require good spotters and Laser range finders
Laser rangefinders are already being manufactured by BEL and these can be quickly inducted to increase the effectiveness of our snipers even though they may be using indigenous sniper rifles
In fact developing A Bolt action 7.62x67 Rifle with Supersonic silencer should be a minor task for the OFB
Such a rifle would be effective upto 1200 m and they may not be any need for imports
Unfortunately the Dalal lobby is pushing for import of a calibre in which we neither make the rifle and nor the ammunition delaying the whole process
Dalal have been blocking induction of Vidhawansk rifle for a long time
Till it was produced by South Africa it was a good rifle but since it has been reverse engineered by OFB it is too heavy
We should immediately order at least one thousand vidhwansak rifle for use on LOC and the border

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The problem with Indian Army doctrine is that it is very outdated
We continue to concentrate on high profile gold plated costly imports

for years i have been waiting for one ruling government to lay down a basic military industrial
infrastructure. I have not seen any try not even the present one. I doubt India will ever develop
indigenous weapons not because of any lack of capability but other ( political) obstacles . Becoming
the second largest importer is not something which we will be free from for decades. Only missile
program is indigenous everything else we will always overpay and import.

 

[Kshithij]

for years i have been waiting for one ruling government to lay down a basic military industrial
infrastructure. I have not seen any try not even the present one. I doubt India will ever develop
indigenous weapons not because of any lack of capability but other ( political) obstacles . Becoming
the second largest importer is not something which we will be free from for decades. Only missile
program is indigenous everything else we will always overpay and import.

You are discounting PSUs. It is unfair to simply assume that private sector is the only MIC possible. In fact, countries like China, Russia have shown that PSU can work well. It is only the western capitalist countries that use private industry for everything.

In USA, Govt funds all research and development but via private companies like LM, Boeing etc. F35 is fully funded by pemtagpe and the LM is simply delaying it. The accountability shown by private companies of USA is not higher than the public companies of Russia. In fact, all the risk is borne by govt while all the profit is borne by private companies. Such a situation is counterproductive.

India does have military manufacturing base and makes many things on its own - Radars, missiles, ammunition, torpedoes, ships, aircraft like Su30 and Tejas, tanks like T90 etc almost completely in India.

India needs imports only in a few segment like aircraft engine, helicopter engine, diesel and gas turbine engine of ships which are all under development. The lack of technology is what causes India to import rather than lack of manufacturing.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

You are discounting PSUs. It is unfair to simply assume that private sector is the only MIC possible. In fact, countries like China, Russia have shown that PSU can work well. It is only the western capitalist countries that use private industry for everything.

In USA, Govt funds all research and development but via private companies like LM, Boeing etc. F35 is fully funded by pemtagpe and the LM is simply delaying it. The accountability shown by private companies of USA is not higher than the public companies of Russia. In fact, all the risk is borne by govt while all the profit is borne by private companies. Such a situation is counterproductive.

India does have military manufacturing base and makes many things on its own - Radars, missiles, ammunition, torpedoes, ships, aircraft like Su30 and Tejas, tanks like T90 etc almost completely in India.

India needs imports only in a few segment like aircraft engine, helicopter engine, diesel and gas turbine engine of ships which are all under development. The lack of technology is what causes India to import rather than lack of manufacturing.

Anything India makes of Russian origin usually comes in kits to assemble. Russia has not given tot as promised. This lack of technology has always been an excuse and will always remain one. Even after twenty years no MRCA. There is no planning at all by
Government in manufacturing weaponry. And I don't this will change anytime soon. Light and heavy guns along with bullets are imported ( during kargil there was a serious shortage)

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[Raj Malhotra]

The problem with Indian system is that it is geared for creating a case for costly imports.
No one is interested in providing equipment and weapons from indigenous sources which are modified or specialised for low intensity warfare.
Providing DMR rifles to our forces by modifying stored SLRs is a no-brainer but who cares?
The reality of Indian system is that bribes cannot be wished away. But the main problem in the system which is already corrupt is that we don't procue essential equipment even if it is slightly over Invoiced to make Bribes but we go in for useless shit
For instance recently US $1 billion order has been given for Apache Helos, but it would have been preferable in my view if US $1 billion worth of night vision devices were imported from USA for Army.
But the procurement system does not work on the basis of the need of the army but it works on the basis of the contacts of the Dalals. If the Dalal of Apache Helos is more powerful than It will be bought irrespective of what is required for the forces

 

[Raj Malhotra]

Galil sniper rifle is just over hyped, costly, imported 7.62x51 rifle with side mounted scope. We can induct 1 lakh DMR by mounting a side mounted mid power scope alongwith bipod on our SLRs which in storage, for only Rs. 200 crore. These Rifles can use standard ammo till sniper ammo is produced in India.

But Dalal s will prevent any reasonable solution unless we import 0.338 rifles with ammo. Which will cost around RS. 2000 crore for only 5000 rifles + ammo.

Just like Vidhwansak is blocked. We can easily use (heavy) AMR till better one is produced but Army had procured Zero even though there is desperate need of AMR on the border.

 

[ezsasa]

The problem with Indian system is that it is geared for creating a case for costly imports.
No one is interested in providing equipment and weapons from indigenous sources which are modified or specialised for low intensity warfare.
Providing DMR rifles to our forces by modifying stored SLRs is a no-brainer but who cares?
The reality of Indian system is that bribes cannot be wished away. But the main problem in the system which is already corrupt is that we don't procue essential equipment even if it is slightly over Invoiced to make Bribes but we go in for useless shit
For instance recently US $1 billion order has been given for Apache Helos, but it would have been preferable in my view if US $1 billion worth of night vision devices were imported from USA for Army.
But the procurement system does not work on the basis of the need of the army but it works on the basis of the contacts of the Dalals. If the Dalal of Apache Helos is more powerful than It will be bought irrespective of what is required for the forces

You will have to consider the issue of “economies of scale”, the order quantity of specific items like sniper rifles is so less that it doesn’t justify the r&d cost within the country . Where as EU and American manufacturers have huge markets within Americas and NATO countries to justify the cost.

One solution can be that instead of designing systems or rifles only for India. if we consider the target market to be all countries on and below Tropic of Cancer, then probably your wish will be granted. In this case potential market justifies long term investment.

On a lighter note:

I try my level best to avoid starting a statement in verbal or written form with “the problem in India is”, maybe you can try that too.... these days we need more solutions and ideas than to reiterate known problem statements.