Indian nuclear submarines

[Chinmoy]

So hunting tech is same for both........ So, we could build SSN indigenously I guess, no ??

Hunting tech is different. One is hunter-killer or in layman term seek and hunt you down. While other is ambush hunter or in short wait for you to come to it.

Arihant is a hybrid, but main challenge of building a SSN is to make in silent enough.

 

[Kranthi]

So hunting tech is same for both........ So, we could build SSN indigenously I guess, no ??

As Chinmoy rightly said, while both SSK and SSN can be broadly classified into hunter subs, SSKs are more like defensive weapons unless you are at war with your neighbours.

Where as SSNs can seek and hunt. You can either position them at a key point far away from the shore to wait for the enemy and strike, or you can send them to trail an enemy ship and sink. An SSK while being much silent when submerged, doesn't have the speed and range while operating on batteries. An SSN can go a long way chasing enemy ships but is not as silent as an SSK, which is where the complexity lies, in noise suppression, making the reactor silent and reduce vibration

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[Kshithij]

Operationally what's the difference between conventional SSK and SSN? Except fuel supply and stealth??

The difference is in propulsion. The AIP and nuclear propulsion is different. Nuclear heat gives out lot of noise and temperature variations. The technology differences between SSK and SSN is fundamental. One can't simply take technology of SSBN and diesel SSK to give the endurance of SSBN while stealth if SSK. The technology of propulsion and stealth is linked. The question is to how do you get stealth in nuclear propulsion.

If your question is why then isn't SSBN made stealth? The answer is that it is complicated and unnecessarily expensive to do so. Also the mammoth size of SSBN gives it away.

SSN is still less stealth than SSK but due to extra long endurance, it works as ambush hunter whereby it is placed in a location and asked to hunt down anything that crosses its location. It can act as defence shield by creating a form of laxman rekha. SSK, on the other hand, is to 'SEARCH & DESTROY'. It is an offensive hunter submarine that searches abd destroys enemies

 

[Steven Rogers]

If killer part of both conventional and SSN are same, we could make one indeginously as we already have expertise of nuclear powered core,no?

What is nuclear powered core

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[indus]

What is nuclear powered core

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Means instead of diesel engine a mini nuke reactor is the power source of sub.

 

[VIP]

What is nuclear powered core

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What I meant that propulsion system basically powered by nuclear energy. While in conventional SS, it's battery charged by diesel engine.

 

[Rahul Singh]

The arihant was not a true SSBN but a hybrid ..

Arihant is basically a TD platform testing different SSBN requirements like acoustics, submerged endurance and SLBM. And its size, especially the shape is comparable to SSN(see pics of proposed SSNs). So if Reactor is operated at 100% and you remove heavy stuff like SLBMs and CMs, you can simulate the basic yet most critical requirement of any SSN which is speed, along with usual requirements like various sensors like Sonars and Torpedos.

Arihant is basically a platform on which DRDO is developing two different class of submarines for two different roles namely SSBN and SSN.

 

[tsunami]

I am no expert but the operational tactics also should be completely different. SSK is stealth and with it's limited range it will mostly never cross IOR region. So it will be more of a defensive weapon to eliminate threats to IN. SSN on the other hand can go anywhere as well as wait for very long time for it's target, so it is threat in itself to other powerful navies of the world.

Also by that mission profile we can assume that SSK will mostly have more intelligence about it's target then SSK. Because in IOR we always have more information about enemy movement then compared to beyond. This will make SSN more of stand alone weapon compared to SSK. This I guess should change the complete sensor package of the Submarine too.

 

[Rahul Singh]

I am no expert but the operational tactics also should be completely different. SSK is stealth and with it's limited range it will mostly never cross IOR region. So it will be more of a defensive weapon to eliminate threats to IN. SSN on the other hand can go anywhere as well as wait for very long time for it's target, so it is threat in itself to other powerful navies of the world.

Also by that mission profile we can assume that SSK will mostly have more intelligence about it's target then SSK. Because in IOR we always have more information about enemy movement then compared to beyond. This will make SSN more of stand alone weapon compared to SSK. This I guess should change the complete sensor package of the Submarine too.

Our proposed family of SSNs is basically to counter China in its own backyard by either escorting CBGs or on stand-alone hunter killer roles from SCS to far reaches of IOR.

SSKs on other hand are to deny sea lanes by chocking traffic at Strait of Malacca to Strait of Hormuz and even Bab Al Mandab Strait if required (f@ck Chinese Djibouti).

Defence is definitely not much of our concern as little is close to our shore. Still, whosoever shall dare will have to beat MPAs and an anti-submarine net made of underwater sensors. In my opinion, we definitely don't need many subs for defence.

 

[Kshithij]

Arihant is basically a TD platform testing different SSBN requirements like acoustics, submerged endurance and SLBM. And its size, especially the shape is comparable to SSN(see pics of proposed SSNs). So if Reactor is operated at 100% and you remove heavy stuff like SLBMs and CMs, you can simulate the basic yet most critical requirement of any SSN which is speed, along with usual requirements like various sensors like Sonars and Torpedos.

Arihant is basically a platform on which DRDO is developing two different class of submarines for two different roles namely SSBN and SSN.

Indian SSN is not yet out. You shouldn't portray it as smaller than Akula. Such wrong pictures misguide.

I am no expert but the operational tactics also should be completely different. SSK is stealth and with it's limited range it will mostly never cross IOR region. So it will be more of a defensive weapon to eliminate threats to IN. SSN on the other hand can go anywhere as well as wait for very long time for it's target, so it is threat in itself to other powerful navies of the world.

Also by that mission profile we can assume that SSK will mostly have more intelligence about it's target then SSK. Because in IOR we always have more information about enemy movement then compared to beyond. This will make SSN more of stand alone weapon compared to SSK. This I guess should change the complete sensor package of the Submarine too.

SSK is attack submarine, not defensive. SSN is defensive-attack submarine as it is an ambush hunter and generally defends an area by waiting still for long time. SSK atacks both ships and submarines alike. SSK leaves the port after getting specific information on enemy deployment to attack them. In IOR, the defensive actions are done by an array of sensors and ASW patrol. Around 70-80 patrol ships with sonar range of 40km radius (80km diameter) is enough to patrol our 700km sea border in addition to underground sensors.

 

[lcafanboy]

Russian team in Vizag to inspect damaged Nuclear Submarine INS Chakra
Friday, October 27, 2017 By: The Hindu Source Link: CLICK HERE


A Russian technical team is in Vizag for a joint investigation into the mysterious damage suffered by INS Chakra, the nuclear submarine leased to India in 2011, a diplomatic source has confirmed.

Details available from an official Indian inquiry show that the damage to the submarine is far bigger than what has been known in public. The sonar dome in the forward portion has suffered an almost five-feet by five-feet hole, according to reliable information from the Ministry of Defence sources. Two separate sources, from the Russian and Indian side, separately confirmed to The Hindu that the damage to the submarine was not very serious, and did not impact the nuclear reactor, because it was all contained to the outer hull.

The Russian team arrived in India after they refused to be satisfied with the findings of a three-member Indian team’s official inquiry. Sources said the team had placed the damage primarily on technical issues. There has been speculation that the damage was caused by a minor accident while INS Chakra was on the move.

Russia, which leased the submarine to India for a 10-year period in 2011 for over $600 million, sent a formal message a few days ago to New Delhi that it was not fully convinced with the Indian findings.

Russia then suggested that technical experts from their side be allowed access to examine the submarine which had been docked for the past several weeks in the submarine base INS Virbahu in Visakhapatnam.

Sources said the investigations by the joint team would be filed to both New Delhi and Moscow. For now, Russian sources indicate that the damage is not serious. “But we will have to wait for the final report before moving forward,” one Russian official said.

India is already engaged in negotiations for the second nuclear submarine from Russia, which could join service when INS Chakra returns after its 10-year lease.


Speculation on accident

There have been much speculation surrounding the accident suffered by the submarine, with some reports saying it may have met with an accident while negotiating the narrow channel to enter the harbour. The submarine had suffered a major accident in 2008, while undergoing sea trials.

The Akula class submarine is an SSN, and is to provide escort to INS Arihant, the indigenously constructed ballistic missile submarine that would carry nuclear missiles.
http://www.defencenews.in/article/R...t-damaged-Nuclear-Submarine-INS-Chakra-444146

 

[Steven Rogers]

Means instead of diesel engine a mini nuke reactor is the power source of sub.

India has your power core, we call it pressurized water reactor. The reactor in Arihant is 83MW, but in real it is more powerful than stated as, Arihant itself look more heavy than the stated displacement.

 

[Kshithij]

India has your power core, we call it pressurized water reactor. The reactor in Arihant is 83MW, but in real it is more powerful than stated as, Arihant itself look more heavy than the stated displacement.

83MW in thermal energy or 83MWe electric energy? Efficiency of Thermal to electric conversion is about 35-40%

 

[Chinmoy]

83MW in thermal energy or 83MWe electric energy? Efficiency of Thermal to electric conversion is about 35-40%

83MWe...

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[Armand2REP]

83MW in thermal energy or 83MWe electric energy? Efficiency of Thermal to electric conversion is about 35-40%

It depends on how good the steam turbines are as to the conversion ratio. A turbo-electric transmission will have more power availability as the turbines go straight into electrical generation rather than propulsion.

 

[kurup]

83MW in thermal energy or 83MWe electric energy? Efficiency of Thermal to electric conversion is about 35-40%

83MWe...

Please enter a message with at least 30 characters.

Its 83MWt ....... The general rule is that MWt is 3 times MWe for most reactors .

Even the latest Russian sub feature only a 200MWt reactor.

 

[Steven Rogers]

83MW in thermal energy or 83MWe electric energy? Efficiency of Thermal to electric conversion is about 35-40%

Electrical...

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[Kshithij]

83MWe...

Please enter a message with at least 30 characters.

It depends on how good the steam turbines are as to the conversion ratio. A turbo-electric transmission will have more power availability as the turbines go straight into electrical generation rather than propulsion.

Its 83MWt ....... The general rule is that MWt is 3 times MWe for most reactors .

Even the latest Russian sub feature only a 200MWt reactor.

Electrical...

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Thanks for the replies. I have found out that Arihant reactors is 83MWt to 90MWt. INS Aridhaman is said to have bigger size and bigger reactor. 83-90MWt makes it seriously underpowered.

The conversion factor of Nimitz Carrier reactor of 275MW (100MW electricity and 100MW propulsion). The conversion comes out to be a total of 70-75% with roughly equal distribution of electricity and propulsion. This is why I said 35-40% propulsion

 

[ramdas hegde]

this is from L&T shipyard. looks like submarine module. any idea??

 

[Doc Mozart]

http://idrw.org/russia-alleges-indi...uthorized-access-to-attack-nuclear-submarine/

What's up with this? Did we really allow Americans on board our ssn? The Russians seem to believe so and they sure don't look happy. Might also explain why the ssn was reported as being damaged.