Indian needs to wake up!

Crusader53

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Respectfully, India needs to wake up and put some serious pressure on Russia!


Russia’s SU-35 Super-Flanker: Mystery Fighter No More





March 7/13: China confirmed. China and Russia have apparently signed an intergovernmental agreement, as the 1st step toward a contract for 24 SU-35s. Reports credibly place the agreement date as January 2013, but contract negotiations could take a while.

A trickle of reports from November 2012 to February claimed that Russia and China had a preliminary agreement in place, which would let them negotiate a deal for varying numbers of SU-35s. Russia's Interfax confirmed the existence and date of that agreement in February 2013, but didn't specify numbers. Now, a March 8/13 article in The Hindu confirms that talks involve 24 planes, a climbdown from Russia's initial insistence on 48. The Russians are said to have more confidence that China can't copy their engines, and are also said to need SU-35 orders, since Russia's VVF is ordering follow-on buys of SU-30SMs instead. On the other side, there's speculation that SU-35"²s improved AL-117S engine could be "of interest" for China's J-20 stealth plane. If so, it would be a setback to India on 2 fronts: breaking an old pattern by selling China a more modern fighter than India's SU-30MKIs, and strengthening a competitor to the Indo-Russian PAK-FA stealth fighter project. South China Morning Post external link | Defense News external link | Voice of Russia external link | The Hindu external link.
 

Sam2012

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Respectfully, India needs to wake up and put some serious pressure on Russia!


Russia's SU-35 Super-Flanker: Mystery Fighter No More





March 7/13: China confirmed. China and Russia have apparently signed an intergovernmental agreement, as the 1st step toward a contract for 24 SU-35s. Reports credibly place the agreement date as January 2013, but contract negotiations could take a while.

A trickle of reports from November 2012 to February claimed that Russia and China had a preliminary agreement in place, which would let them negotiate a deal for varying numbers of SU-35s. Russia's Interfax confirmed the existence and date of that agreement in February 2013, but didn't specify numbers. Now, a March 8/13 article in The Hindu confirms that talks involve 24 planes, a climbdown from Russia's initial insistence on 48. The Russians are said to have more confidence that China can't copy their engines, and are also said to need SU-35 orders, since Russia's VVF is ordering follow-on buys of SU-30SMs instead. On the other side, there's speculation that SU-35"²s improved AL-117S engine could be "of interest" for China's J-20 stealth plane. If so, it would be a setback to India on 2 fronts: breaking an old pattern by selling China a more modern fighter than India's SU-30MKIs, and strengthening a competitor to the Indo-Russian PAK-FA stealth fighter project. South China Morning Post external link | Defense News external link | Voice of Russia external link | The Hindu external link.
China is buying Su-35 to counter USA, Southkorea, Taiwan & Japan all have F-15's , F-16's & F-18's , for them India is secondary target
Why India should put pressure on Russia , will that really work Russia will say get lost because they will sell arms to any one @ prize they have not sold to offensive equipment to Pakis giving respect to India which more than enough

But USA sells Arms to Pakis in the name of WOT through soft loan , may be u should stop that first

U people are Superpower try & block the sale if u can , why ur bringing Indian equation in between Russia-China -NATO ?. Infact you block Russia from supplying Cryogenic rocket engine using MTCR , but same MTCR was violated by u nincompoops many times:mad:

If u have guts face Russia & block the sale:taunt: , we are ok China getting Su-35BM :thumb:
 

Yusuf

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India cannot put pressure on Russia on this. Russia should understand that one day the Chinese will come back to bite it and thy it's helping china do that. Short sighted move by Russia to sell anything to the Chinese.
 

Sam2012

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India cannot put pressure on Russia on this. Russia should understand that one day the Chinese will come back to bite it and thy it's helping china do that. Short sighted move by Russia to sell anything to the Chinese.
Yusuf bhai

Russia will sell its Arms to any country , they offered S-400 to Turkey & PAK-FA to South korea both the countries are very dear pal of USA. Russia does care only for business & $$$

All China can do is reverse engineer Su-35 and produce in large numbers , is there a guarantee the copy cat Su-35 will match the mighty Su-35BM original one ? Do you think Russia will sell all top end sub systems to China given the notorious Copy cat strategy :taunt:

If Chinese reverse Engineering products are so good , why they went to Su-35 in the first place?

Yes we have to review the suituation , we have to speed up Super Sukhoi-30MKI induction & Scrap MMRCA since its immaterial now against Su-35 thats what i feel

India should invest more on FGFA , AMCA & Fighter Drones using private expertise , Its my assumption feel free to rebut:thumb:
 

Yusuf

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We cannot afford to scrap MRCA. We don't have enough warplanes right now.
 

Sam2012

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We cannot afford to scrap MRCA. We don't have enough warplanes right now.
Yusuf bhai , why can't we give a chance to LCA MK1, MK2 & Bigger MK3 version ? I don't see Rafale deal getting inked before 2014 polls
If NDA wins then they push this deal further down if they don't get kickbacks , if UPA wins again back to square one start the process again find out how much more commision can be drawn . Choppergate scam has really put brakes on everything . Don't forget bofors because of that we are not able to Induct single Howitzer in 25+ years

Now Su-35 purchase by China has sent tremors across Indian leadership , thanks to the media & western propaganda tellin Rafale is no match to Su-35:thumb:

Ru Confident MMRCA will be signed this year?:rolleyes:
 

arya

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We cannot afford to scrap MRCA. We don't have enough warplanes right now.
no one is saying to cancel mmrca but pls first give the order don't waste time..

We can either gor 20-30 su35 or any equivalent fighter plane to counter China , we need on fast level till pakfa,super su30 will not come

we have to fill the gap ....
 

arya

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Yusuf bhai , why can't we give a chance to LCA MK1, MK2 & Bigger MK3 version ? I don't see Rafale deal getting inked before 2014 polls
If NDA wins then they push this deal further down if they don't get kickbacks , if UPA wins again back to square one start the process again find out how much more commision can be drawn . Choppergate scam has really put brakes on everything . Don't forget bofors because of that we are not able to Induct single Howitzer in 25+ years

Now Su-35 purchase by China has sent tremors across Indian leadership , thanks to the media & western propaganda tellin Rafale is no match to Su-35:thumb:

Ru Confident MMRCA will be signed this year?:rolleyes:
let kill the enemy with the same weapon .

Cant we go few su35...
 

Sam2012

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let kill the enemy with the same weapon .

Cant we go few su35...
India will not buy Su-35 , infact it was offered to India in 2008 itself as alternative to MMRCA

Livefist: Su-35 Super Flanker offered to India

India thinks best suited for Air dominance is Su-30MKI , Super-30MKI & Mig-29SMT

What we have to do is concentrate more on FGFA ,AMCA & nulify the threat posed by Su-35 , we have to look ahead instead going back again

And have to work towards LCA platform maturity , Im not telling we should pit LCA against Su-35 in Dog fight which will be foolish , like pitting a Pegion Vs Terror Bird :taunt:

We should not have a attiltute of matching fighter to fighter with china , then the maintainance will become a mess & we will end up in ARMS race which is not good at all:thumb:
 

shom

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Respectfully, India needs to wake up and put some serious pressure on Russia!


Russia's SU-35 Super-Flanker: Mystery Fighter No More
Some Advertisements in Sukhoi's website:-

Su-35 multi-role fighter

On the world fighter market Russia's Sukhoi is pinning its hopes, in the near future, on a substantially modernized Su-35 multi-role fighter. The model must be an interim type between today's Su-30MK in various configurations and a prospective fifth-generation fighter, whose deliveries may start in the second half of the next decade. The Su-35 is a 4++ generation aircraft employing technologies of the fifth generation. They make it superior to all other 4th generation fighters now under development worldwide. In 2009-2015, thanks to these technologies, the Su-35 will dominate the world market, outperforming other proposed multi-role fighters.

The first experimental Su-35, completed in summer 2007 at Komsomolsk-na-Amure Aviation Production Association (KnAAPO) first appeared at Russia's MAKS-2007 air show.

A new aircraft with an old name

The Su-35 has long been a brand name in the aviation world. Since 1992, an export version of the Su-27 fighter (created under the order of the Russian Air Force) has been demonstrated at international air shows. At the turn of the millennium, Su-35 fighters participated in the tenders of Korean and Brazilian air forces. By the mid-decade of the new century, a general concept emerged of a considerably modified Su-27 fighter, which retained the name of Su-35.

What is new in the Su-35? First off, the fighter will get an improved airframe, which will dramatically increase its service life to 6,000 hours, 30 years of operation (the time before the first test and recondition and the between-repairs period has been increased to 1,500 hours, or 10 years of operation). Aerodynamically it is similar to the Su-27. But unlike the Su-30MKI it will feature no canard fins. All the three channels will have electrically signaled control without mechanical cabling. The use of a new integrated control system (developed by MNPK Avionika Moscow-based Research and Production Association) simultaneously performing functions of several systems – remote control, automatic control, limiting signals system, air signals system, chassis wheels braking system – will enhance the fighter's handling capability and maneuverability.

Among the Su-35 design features, worth of note is the absence of an overhead brake flap, a standard characteristic of the Su-27. Its functions are performed by an active rudder. The Su-35 chassis has been reinforced because of the increased takeoff and landing weight of the aircraft. For the same reason, the front bearing has two wheels. The improved radar stealth reduces the reflectance of the Su-35 in the X radio waveband and in the angle range of ±60°.

The "heart" of the aircraft

Another important difference of the Su-35 from predecessors from the Su-27 family is the use, in its power plant, of new engines with an increased thrust. Those engines, known as 117S, have been developed by NPO Saturn Research and Production Association.

In terms of engineering, the engines are substantially modified AL-31F production engines employing fifth-generation technologies. They use a new fan, new high and low pressure turbines, and a new digital control system. A provision is made for using a vectored thrust nozzle. The modernization has increased the engine special mode thrust by 16%, up to 14,500 kgf. In the maximum burner-free mode it reaches 8,800 kgf. Compared to today's AL-31F engines, their capabilities will grow substantially, by 2 to 2.7 times. For instance, the between-repair period will grow from 500 to 1,000 hours (the operating period before the first overhaul is 1,500 hours). The designed period will vary between 1,500 and 4,000 hours.

The 117S engines will be co-produced by Ufa-based Motor Building Association and Rybinsk-based NPO Saturn Research and Production Association. The first production 117S engines were delivered to KnAAPO in early 2007 for testing on the first experimental Su-35 aircraft.

New onboard systems

The distinctive feature of Su-35 is the employment of a new suite of onboard instruments. Its core is the information management system (IMS), which integrates functional, logical, informational and software subsystems into a single complex that ensures the interaction between the crew and equipment. The IMS includes two central digital computers, commutation and information devices and an indication system built on the "all-glass cockpit" concept.

The core of the Su-35 cockpit instrumentation suite are two full-color multi-function liquid crystal displays of MFI type, a multi-function panel with a built-in display processor, a wide angle collimatory display on the windshield and a control and indication panel.

MFI multi-function displays with a built-in processor measure 9 x 12 inches (diagonal 15 inches) and have a resolution of 1400x1050 pixels. They are intended for reception, processing and production, in a multiple window mode, of graphic, numeric, alphabetic and symbolic information. They also present televised information received from onboard TV sensors and impose on it synthesized numeric, alphabetic and symbolic information. Besides, they produce and send video signals in a digital format to the video record unit. The multi-function panel with a built-in display processor presents the required information and issues commands by pushing the buttons on the button array at any time in flight. The airborne collimatory display with a built-in processor monitors the space beyond the cockpit. The information is processed by control signals. The collimator angle of view is 20x30о.

The onboard systems and armament in the new cockpit of Su-35 are controlled by buttons and switches on the aircraft control joystick and engine control levers as well as by a button array on multi-function displays. Thus the HOTAS concept is realized on this type of aircraft. The displays and some other avionics systems of Su-35 are developed by Instrument Design Bureau of Ramenskoye and affiliated companies of Tekhnokompleks Research and Production Association.

"Eyes and ears"

The core of the Su-35 armament is a new radar control system with a phased antenna array (Irbis-E). It features unique capabilities in terms of the target detection range. This is a development V V Tikhomirov Research Institute of Instrument Production. In design, this is an X-waveband multi-role radar with a passive phased antenna array (PAA) mounted on a two-step hydraulic drive unit (in azimuth and roll). The antenna device scans by an electronically controlled beam in azimuth and angle of elevation in sectors not smaller than 60°. The two-step electro-hydraulic drive unit additionally turns the antenna by mechanic means to 60° in azimuth and 120° in roll. Thus, in using the electronic control and mechanical additional turn of the antenna, the maximum deflection angle of the beam grows to 120°.

Irbis-E radar control system detects and tracks up to 30 air targets, retaining continuity of space observation and engaging up to eight targets. The system detects, chooses and tracks up to four ground targets in several map-making modes with various resolution at a range of up to 400 km, without stopping to monitor the airspace.

Irbis-E radar detects air targets with an absolute cross section of 3 m2 on a head-on course at a range of up to 400 km.

Being an improvement on radars with a PAA, Irbis has much better capabilities: expanded (by more than twice) operating frequency band, increased from 70о to 120о target detection and tracking zone in azimuth, substantially (by 2-2.5 times) increased effective range, improved anti-jamming capability, etc. In this aspect, Irbis is comparable to the best foreign counterparts, outperforming most of the US- and Wes-European-made radars with passive and active PAA.

The Research Institute has been developing Irbis since 2004. By now, the engineering prototypes of the system have passed the required bench trials. The first of them has been installed on the Su-30MK2 flying laboratory and is undergoing flight tests. The first flight of the flying laboratory with Irbis onboard occurred in early 2007 at Gromov Flight Test Institute. During the flight, the laboratory proved the superior performance of the new radar in the air-to-surface operating mode.

Among other new onboard systems of the Su-35 is modern navigation and radio communication equipment, systems maintaining fighters operation in a formation and a highly efficient electronic countermeasures suite. The component package of the latter and its complementation with specific jamming devices can be determined by the customer.

Armament

In addition to the armaments onboard the modern Su-30MK, it is planned to additionally arm the Su-35 with new types of air-to-air and air-to-surface guided missiles, including long-range types. The maximum ordnance load of the Su-35 is 8,000 kg. This is placed in 12 weapon stations.




March 7/13: China confirmed. China and Russia have apparently signed an intergovernmental agreement, as the 1st step toward a contract for 24 SU-35s. Reports credibly place the agreement date as January 2013, but contract negotiations could take a while.

A trickle of reports from November 2012 to February claimed that Russia and China had a preliminary agreement in place, which would let them negotiate a deal for varying numbers of SU-35s. Russia's Interfax confirmed the existence and date of that agreement in February 2013, but didn't specify numbers. Now, a March 8/13 article in The Hindu confirms that talks involve 24 planes, a climbdown from Russia's initial insistence on 48. The Russians are said to have more confidence that China can't copy their engines, and are also said to need SU-35 orders, since Russia's VVF is ordering follow-on buys of SU-30SMs instead. On the other side, there's speculation that SU-35"²s improved AL-117S engine could be "of interest" for China's J-20 stealth plane. If so, it would be a setback to India on 2 fronts: breaking an old pattern by selling China a more modern fighter than India's SU-30MKIs, and strengthening a competitor to the Indo-Russian PAK-FA stealth fighter project. South China Morning Post external link | Defense News external link | Voice of Russia external link | The Hindu external link.
Now for Sukhoi 30mki:-

The Su-30MK aeroplane has been designed on the platform of the Su-27UB; it is in series production in Komsomolsk-on-Amur and in Irkutsk.

The Su-30MK is a two-seat highly-manoeuvrable fighter designed for air-superiority and strikes at ground and naval surface targets using a variety of guided and unguided ADO, with an option of supporting group actions.
Now see the amount of advertisement given for sukhoi 35 and the amount given in Sukhoi 30MKI,, from this u can assume what kind of aircraft is sukhoi 35 and how much in dire need sukhoi has to sell su-35. GOT IT mate,,,,,,,
courtesy:- Sukhoi Company (JSC) - Airplanes - Military Aircraft - Su-35
Sukhoi Company (JSC) - Airplanes - Military Aircraft - Su-30МК
 

p2prada

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Yusuf bhai , why can't we give a chance to LCA MK1, MK2 & Bigger MK3 version ?
These are not war winning aircraft. Only inventory fillers.

Now Su-35 purchase by China has sent tremors across Indian leadership ,
I don't know if South Block is worried. Especially when the Chinese are buying an aircraft that is a little more ahead compared to the MKI.

thanks to the media & western propaganda tellin Rafale is no match to Su-35:thumb:
We may not have to be worried as long as the MKI upgrades match up or exceed the Su-35 and the Rafale can deny the use of S-300 and S-400 derived SAMs.

Ru Confident MMRCA will be signed this year?:rolleyes:
Yes. Reports continuously indicate it is nearly a done deal. Only a corruption allegation would stomp it. As of today, all the competitors seem to be happy with it since nobody has complained.
 

p2prada

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Respectfully, India needs to wake up and put some serious pressure on Russia!
Yes. I do hope this deal is stopped for some reason or the other. Preferably the Chinese themselves cancel it.

While I prefer this deal is canceled, I would still say we need not be overly worried about it.

India cannot put pressure on Russia on this. Russia should understand that one day the Chinese will come back to bite it and thy it's helping china do that. Short sighted move by Russia to sell anything to the Chinese.
If you did not notice, the Russians have contracted for 60 MKIs (called Su-30SM) for themselves while they are purchasing only 48 Su-35s. Sure, more Su-35s are to follow, but this could be true for the Su-30SMs too. What gives more confidence is the fact that the follow on orders for 30 Su-30SMs was signed in the same year as the first 30 was contracted for. Shows the level of confidence the VVS has in the MKI even though they have parallel inductions of the Su-35s at the same time.

Secondly, even though the Su-35 is advanced in its own right, according to Sukhoi test pilots, the PAKFA is simply far more advanced and capable than the Su-35. So it makes sense for the Russians to clinch this deal with the Chinese as they have a superior aircraft in development. The more money the Russians get from the Su-35s, the more money they can put in the PAKFA program. So this is a win-win situation for three countries, including India.

As long as the numbers remain at 24, the Su-35s won't be a visible threat to India. Japan should be a bit more worried about it. Taiwan could be in shock right now and may already be knocking on the doors of the White House. In case the numbers balloon to around 200, India will have to be worried too. However by the time the Russians manage to have 200 Su-35s transferred to PLAAF, IAF will have as many Super MKIs apart from Rafales while starting inductions of PMF/FGFA.

Also, I don't believe the Su-35s are being bought for its engines or avionics for the J-20. Rather the Su-35s may be for a genuine need by the PLAAF to induct advanced fighters this decade instead of the far more simpler J-11A and B. This is because they are already working on AESA for their aircraft which would mean they won't need Irbis-E. As for 117S, the Russians had offered it to the Chinese many years ago. So, the engine itself is on offer outside the Su-35 deal.
 

Yusuf

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@p2prada,

Chinese wanted just one before. 24 seems to be a compromise. They will have 200 of these for sure but as something like J-35 copy pasta.
 
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p2prada

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p2prada

Chinese wanted just one before. 24 seems to be a compromise.
I don't remember reading about China wanting just one. Initial negotiations was for 48 and came down to 24. Would be glad if corrected.

They will have 200 of these for sure but as something like J-35 copy pasta.
They are not getting an assembly plant. All these will be direct from KNAAPO in fly away conditions.

If they end up ripping off the Su-35 in 2020 and produce it after that, I'll be more than happy if they did. It will keep them a generation behind compared to India and will give us a clearer picture on the position of the J-20.
 

Yusuf

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I don't remember reading about China wanting just one. Initial negotiations was for 48 and came down to 24. Would be glad if corrected.



They are not getting an assembly plant. All these will be direct from KNAAPO in fly away conditions.

If they end up ripping off the Su-35 in 2020 and produce it after that, I'll be more than happy if they did. It will keep them a generation behind compared to India and will give us a clearer picture on the position of the J-20.
I remember reading some report may be on DFI itself. It sounded ridiculous. But Russia refused. China said it wants to evaluate one plane before placing a bigger order.

China wants the engine on it. Well not buy it but study the technology on it and clone it.
 

p2prada

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I remember reading some report may be on DFI itself. It sounded ridiculous. But Russia refused. China said it wants to evaluate one plane before placing a bigger order.
True, if you read a report about Su-33s. The Chinese wanted 2. Russia refused. J-15 flew and Russia canceled negotiations.

China wants the engine on it. Well not buy it but study the technology on it and clone it.
This could be true. I will list out two possibilities I can think of.

1. Considering they only need the engines, they could simply buy the engine directly at around $10 Million each instead of paying $5 Million for each aircraft.

2. Buy the Su-35s and then clone the engine using the spares.

In case 1, the deal is definitely cheaper. $10 Million for a few engines may cost as much as one or two planes. But in this case, Russia may not want to sign a contract for only a few engines. They might ask for a 100 engine contract instead. Apart from that there may be clauses on the use of the engines too. Like which aircraft will be powered by it and so on. Here, China may not be able to prove the aircraft type which will use the engines. It doesn't look like they have any which will accept the bigger 117S.

In case 2, the deal is more expensive (even if a 100 engine contract is signed), but the deal is much more simpler while the numbers are too small to be a threat to anybody. The Chinese can always use the spare engines for this.

@J20! @ice berg @shiphone

Any opinions?
 
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Yusuf

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True, if you read a report about Su-33s. The Chinese wanted 2. Russia refused. J-15 flew and Russia canceled negotiations.



This could be true. I will list out two possibilities I can think of.

1. Considering they only need the engines, they could simply buy the engine directly at around $10 Million each instead of paying $5 Million for each aircraft.

2. Buy the Su-35s and then clone the engine using the spares.

In case 1, the deal is definitely cheaper. $10 Million for a few engines may cost as much as one or two planes. But in this case, Russia may not want to sign a contract for only a few engines. They might ask for a 100 engine contract instead. Apart from that there may be clauses on the use of the engines too. Like which aircraft will be powered by it and so on. Here, China may not be able to prove the aircraft type which will use the engines. It doesn't look like they have any which will accept the bigger 117S.

In case 2, the deal is more expensive (even if a 100 engine contract is signed), but the deal is much more simpler while the numbers are too small to be a threat to anybody. The Chinese can always use the spare engines for this.

@J20! @ice berg @shiphone

Any opinions?
Ok may be it was the 33 not 35. My bad.

Still this deal is all about China wanting to clone for future mass production. 24 or 48 do not make sense in the larger scheme of things. Either engines or the plane or part thereof will be cloned.
 
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I was under impression that China went about the deal to ultimately reverse engineer 117s engine.
But as suggested by other forumers here the engine was available to them outside the deal so that may not be the reason.

The negotiation news appeared quite long ago but then China went cold about it.But the deal now signals that their indigenous j-xx series may have ran into rough weather and appear late into the scene.
Thus 1. China wants to remain in contention till their 5th gen j-xx arrives and also the lower number signifies that they dont want indigenous development to take a hit due to diversion of funds.
2. Russia is pushing the sale of Su-35 export version against some kind of consultancy for engine development.

Whatever may be the cause this may not be aimed at us as it was a well known fact MKI version was better than MKK version and it had been so for quite some years and it did not draw any knee jerk reaction from China.

From our side also this news also donot deserve any knee jerk reaction we are on our path of upgrading our Su-30 MKI into Super Sukhhoi.(for specification pls. search forum.)and joint development of PAK-FA/FGFA.

On the question on how long it will take China to reverse engineer the engine it remains to be seen.

Their efforts towards tweaking RD-33 for single engine airframe was far from satisfactory.Although early delivery was cited as the reason then but I doubt any airframe with their indigenous engines have been delivered to Pakistan (its end user) till now.
 

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1. Considering they only need the engines, they could simply buy the engine directly at around $10 Million each instead of paying $5 Million for each aircraft.

2. Buy the Su-35s and then clone the engine using the spares.

@shiphone

Any opinions?
1. I don't think we would clone the 117S ...china didn't clone the AL31F although PLAAF had the full ability to overhaul AL31 serial and Rebuild most of the parts on two Overhaul lines (and such facilities were not from Russia) by itself,and PLAAF will keep buying the original AL31 engines for those Su27SK,J11A,Su30MKK.
BTW, some Indian member said that MKI projects would eat up most of the production of AL31 ,it's very far from the fact.. Russian never had any limits on AL31 sales...actually more than 1000 engines have been delivered ...two Russian company are manufacturing the AL31 serial...All or most of AL31F/Fn in China were from the Salyut which has a long term relationship with PLAAF and Aviation Industry and gained some funds for further AL31 development ...and the other one : NPO Saturn (the developper of AL31FP )will earn its share with the new 14500 Kgs level thrust 117S, but now Salyut is delivering the new AL31FM1(13500Kg ) and marketing the improved AL31Fn with thrust vectoring nozzle.

2.So far ,as we knew ,117S's offer is a conditioned one which is PLAAF must buy the end product like Su35, and PLAAF would be the first foreign user of Su35 after years promotion and It may help the Russia to for further sales (like the Su27 case in 1992 and Su30MKK in 2001) . it's also the tradition of Russia-China Weapon Trading. many important individual item importing and Tech TOT were covered or attached to some big end product contracts...

3.the WS15 project officially started in 2006, just one year early than J20 project...the plan was the final product should be delivered in around 2017. as we know, it is going well ... if any delay happened, it will be very obvious .let's wait to see.. and J20 would use Russian Engine to enter the service in round 2015 or 2017(there were two kinds of message from different reliable sources, I'm not sure which one is the node time). and this status of J20 would has limited High speed and acceleration ability but full Stealth feature and Next Gen Avionics which would be acceptable. PLAAF would get real stuff to simulate and evaluate the F22 threat to Air Defence System.

4. J20 with Russian Engine was always in the Plan even at the bidding period of the Project : now ,PTs are flying with AL31, and first batchs was planned using Salyut AL31 FM2 (14500 kgs, same class as 117s). but it seems there was little info about the FM2 for years...so Saturn 117S may come as the replacement. btw, AL31FM1,2,3 were also known as 99M1,M2,M3.
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p2prada

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2.So far ,as we knew ,117S's offer is a conditioned one which is PLAAF must buy the end product like Su35
This makes sense.

J20 with Russian Engine was always in the Plan even at the bidding period of the Project : now ,PTs are flying with AL31, and first batchs was planned using Salyut AL31 FM2 (14500 kgs, same class as 117s). but it seems there was little info about the FM2 for years...so Saturn 117S may come as the replacement. btw, AL31FM1,2,3 were also known as 99M1,M2,M3.
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If 117S replaces the F and/or FM2, then this won't really match with your earlier comment about 117S being exported only with the Su-35. Or is there a particular minimum number of engines that must be bought?

Can you clarify this?
 

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