Indian Navy Playing Catch-up with China

[Patriot]

comments & unsubstantiated remarks, you are putting flame bait & troll.

 

[Patriot]

Please stop trolling.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Once again you are revealing your ignorance India has P8-I and orders have been
placed for upto 16 P8-I. China has nothing that comes close to this in anti submarine
warfare.Chinese subs are 30 years behind the rest of the world. China is still a brown
water navy and will always be limited to coastal defence which can do little more than bully
smaller neighbors,while India is a green water navy. India has much longer experiences with
carriers than China 40 + years.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

US vs China Undersea - Flashpoints

US vs China Undersea

China's submarine fleet is largely limited to a coastal defensive role, but still could not prevent infiltration by US undersea boats, according to a recent analysis by Owen Cote Jr. of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Security Studies Programme.

Only big shifts in doctrine and technology could alter the current equation, Cote explained.

Cote's assessment is a fresh reminder of the obstacles China faces in securing its own waters – to say nothing of extending its influence farther into the Pacific. The report is also a reminder that, despite the high visibility of aircraft carriers, jet fighters and ballistic missiles, submarines are still the most decisive weapon in the evolving rivalry between Washington and Beijing.

With their stealthiness and tremendous firepower, submarines pose a serious threat to surface vessels. For that reason, they are ideally suited to so-called sea denial – that is, keeping enemy fleets out of a given patch of ocean.


That's precisely what Beijing intends for its force of roughly 50 small diesel-electric submarines and 10 or so larger nuclear boats. 'China plans on using its diesel attack submarines...for coastal defence,' Cote wrote.

Likewise, the nuke boats could be used in an attempt 'to deny or limit the access of Western navies to the larger sea space between what (Chinese officials) call the 'first and second island chains' – or, roughly speaking, the Philippine Sea.'

But the US Navy's own submarines plus its patrol planes, helicopters, surface ships and underwater 'listening' arrays, concentrated in geographic choke points, could probably detect most Chinese subs attempting to reach the US fleet beyond the first island chain, Cote asserted.

At the same time, 'China has very limited (Anti-Submarine Warfare) capabilities and appears not to be making major investments to improve them.'

So while the submarines of the People's Liberation Army Navy might be able to deny US and allied surface vessels access to the South China Sea, they can't reliably extend that denial into the Philippine Sea. Nor could they even detect American undersea vessels anywhere. 'US submarines can currently operate freely in Chinese coastal waters.'

This imbalance is a result of the United States' huge investment in submarine technology during the decades of the Cold War. The US has demonstrated 'the ability to establish and consistently maintain significant acoustic advantages for its nuclear submarines in a competition with a peer competitor.'

The United States' 55 nuclear attack subs are so quiet 'that their passage at close range can actually cause a dip in noise levels because background noise is being blocked by the submarine's hull.'

The superiority of US subs could severely limit the potential of China's own undersea fleet in a prolonged conflict, even degrading its coastal defence capability. Cote described US boats taking up positions outside Chinese ports, tracking and destroying PLAN subs as they left or entered.

There's a catch. The US Navy maintains only 10 submarines on routine forward deployment all over the world during peacetime. Many more boats could 'surge' in the event of hostilities, but would require days or weeks to reach Chinese waters. For that reason, 'the US can do little to stop an initial sortie by a large portion of the Chinese submarine fleet.'

The American sub fleet's advantage would increase over time as more vessels arrived.

Whether Chinese subs could exploit their moment of relative freedom is debatable. Even US submarines with their highly sophisticated sensors and combat systems rely on 'cueing' by land-based over-the-horizon radars, satellites or high-altitude surveillance aircraft that can steer them towards their targets.

China possesses a rudimentary cueing capability in the form of several OTH radars and a small constellation of surveillance satellites. Beijing is also developing drone spy planes. The United States could find a new role for its submarines in destroying some of these cueing assets, further handicapping an already inferior Chinese undersea fleet.

US subs are already armed with land-attack cruise missiles. For their own cueing against OTH radars on land, US boats could deploy small aerial drones – a capability already in development.

Thus equipped, US submarines would also be capable of destroying a wider range of land targets, including China's hundreds of mobile missile launchers.

'Just as I argue that the US could seek new areas of military competition with China by giving its submarines new missions, the Chinese might seek to do the same,' Cote explained. 'But the situation for the Chinese is different because they would not be building on a situation of current or inherent advantage like the US would be.'

 

[GromHellscream]

Once again you are revealing your ignorance India has P8-I and orders have been
placed for upto 16 P8-I. China has nothing that comes close to this in anti submarine
warfare.Chinese subs are 30 years behind the rest of the world. China is still a brown
water navy and will always be limited to coastal defence which can do little more than bully
smaller neighbors,while India is a green water navy. India has much longer experiences with
carriers than China 40 + years.

Replacing "world" with "USA" will be more persuasive.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Why ? In many sectors US is not good as European and Japanese & Russian technologies, In this scene World is better word to put in..

Replacing "world" with "USA" will be more persuasive.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Replacing "world" with "USA" will be more persuasive.

China is behind Russia,UK,Israel,France,Japan and in many areas India so world is the right
word. Copying Russian platforms and stolen technology has not made China at par with
the WORLD in the naval side. China has recently fired an SLBM something USA and
Russia,France,UK did 60 years ago.China took 30 years to launch an SLBM succesfully
India with a late start and much less time followed.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/repor...ed-ballistic-missile-joins-elite-club_1722367

India develops submarine-launched ballistic missile joins elite club.

 

[Kranthi]

U can just keep on arguing.What do u expect ?

NO they are meant for a purpose which Trolls never understand.

 

[Known_Unknown]

You seriously need to read more and type less. Would do you a lot of good to go through this thread, it was very informative for me as well:

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/china/41529-type-052d-china-s-new-guided-missile-destroyer-4.html

And FYI:

Indian P-15A, 163m x 17.4m 7000t
Chinese 052C, 153m x 17m 7000t

 

[Known_Unknown]

I agree that you need to read more, type less and at least try to be a little less trollish.

You can learn from your other, more mature, Chinese compatriots on this forum such as those who posted on that thread.

 

[Known_Unknown]

As for your question, I point out how ridiculous it is.

 

[Known_Unknown]

Guess the PLAN can decommission their entire surface and sub-surface fleets save for a few 7000t destroyers since they will still be "blue water capable" by your definition.

 

[jackprince]

Blue-water navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The term blue-water navy is a colloquialism used to describe a maritime force capable of operating across the deep waters of open oceans.[1] While definitions of what actually constitutes such a force vary, there is a requirement for the ability to exercise sea control at wide ranges.
The Defense Security Service of the United States has defined the blue-water navy as, "a maritime force capable of sustained operation across the deep waters of open oceans. A blue-water navy allows a country to project power far from the home country and usually includes one or more aircraft carriers. Smaller blue-water navies are able to dispatch fewer vessels abroad for shorter periods of time."[2]

 

[jackprince]

The term blue-water navy is a colloquialism used to describe a maritime force capable of operating across the deep waters of open oceans.[1] While definitions of what actually constitutes such a force vary, there is a requirement for the ability to exercise sea control at wide ranges.
The Defense Security Service of the United States has defined the blue-water navy as, "a maritime force capable of sustained operation across the deep waters of open oceans. A blue-water navy allows a country to project power far from the home country and usually includes one or more aircraft carriers. Smaller blue-water navies are able to dispatch fewer vessels abroad for shorter periods of time."[2]

It has to control wide range of sea. One or two 7000T vessel will not be able to control a wide range of sea simply 'coz of its limitation of no. however much sophisticated a vessel may be, quantity is also is required for a blue water navy. Simply being able to cruise on open sea with one or two vessel is not the essence of the definition of Blue-water Navy.

"Controling" is the key word!

 

[tjpf]

mod ban that ******** and delete this post

 

[sob]

This language is not required. If you have counter arguments post them here, don't take it to a lower level.

My friendly suggestion please edit your post to reflect your maturity. Thanks.

 

[tjpf]

This language is not required. If you have counter arguments post them here, don't take it to a lower level.

My friendly suggestion please edit your post to reflect your maturity. Thanks.

well the arguments have been taken to lower level by that ************************.....let mod delete my post...consider that post as my protest to the free hand given to trolls in this forum..

 

[Bangalorean]

For some reason, that bugger really pisses me off too. I see red the moment I see that fellow posting. I hate false flaggers, who pretend to be "neutral", and make outrageous statements constantly. Put your own bloody flag and say whatever you want to.

 

[ani82v]

Why is an Aussie hell bent on proving that China is a blue water navy?

 

[mayfair]

Why is an Aussie hell bent on proving that China is a blue water navy?

Because he's as much an Aussie as you and I are Sontarans from Doctor Who.