Indian Navy Playing Catch-up with China

[Daredevil]

As Dragon multiplies its war toys, India plays catch-up

In 2009, the Indian Army carried out top-secret war games — codenamed Divine Matrix — aimed at analysing China's threat to the country. The conclusion: China could attack India by 2017, and there was a possibility of Pakistan stirring the pot by trying to trouble India at the same time.
Three years later, while there are no immediate signs of hostility on either border, a rare visit by China's defence minister to India last week has thrown into focus the latter's military capabilities to defend itself in a volatile neighbourhood, where India has fought five wars since Independence.

While Beijing hailed General Liang Guanglie's visit to India — the first by a Chinese defence minister in eight years — as "successful", our military experts have cautioned against taking the eyes off the ball on the security implications of China's rapidly modernising military.

Pakistan, they say, is not even seeded in the game. "We have adequate deterrence against Pakistan, but the policy of dissuasion against China needs to be upgraded to credible deterrence so that Beijing can't spring a surprise. We are not quite there yet," says strategic affairs expert Brig Gurmeet Kanwal (retd).

STOCKING UP

With its defence outlay for 2012 officially pegged at $106.41 billion ( Rs. 5.85 lakh crore), but actual military spending suspected to be twice as much, China is buffing up its war stores with strategic missiles, space-based assets, aircraft carriers, fighter jets and warships.

China's focus has shifted from land forces to air force and navy to expand its military reach.

India's defence outlay of $35.09 billion ( Rs. 1.93 lakh crore) pales before China's military spending. Islamabad, meanwhile, will spend $6 billion ( Rs. 33,000 crore) on defence this year, not factoring in American aid.

India hasn't ignored the possibility of a two-front war at a time when Beijing's strategic intentions remain unclear.

Defence minister AK Antony told Parliament in May that his ministry would seek an additional outlay of $8.18 billion ( Rs. 45,000 crore) from the Centre, factoring in "changed threat perception", a euphemism for the possibility of China and Pakistan coming together.

If such a scenario were to crop up, the Indian strategy would revolve around defeating Pakistan and holding China, experts said.

The proposed increase will take India's defence expenditure from 1.9% of the GDP to 2.35%. The country's defence spending averaged 1.59% of the GDP from 1947 to 1962, when our army suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of the Chinese.

Experts have argued India's defence spending ought to be around 3% of the GDP to keep up with China's military build-up.

NEED FOR SPEED

New Delhi is pumping billions into fighting machines such as stealth jets, modern fighter, aircraft carriers, nuclear-powered submarines, submarine hunter planes, special operations aircraft and attack helicopters. But the pace of induction needs to be sped up.

Former IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Major says, "One-party autocracy is the secret behind China's swift military upgrade. Democracies will have their delays."

STRENGTH IN NUMBERS

China is hard to beat in terms of sheer numbers. The People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) reportedly operates upwards of 3,500 aircraft, though much of the inventory consists of outdated designs. In comparison, the IAF has a fleet of 600-plus fighters.

But the PLAAF is fast ridding itself of obsolete platforms from the 1960s and inducting fighters such as Sukhoi-30s and JF-17 Thunder light combat aircraft.

"China may be upgrading rapidly but let's not place it on a huge pedestal. The IAF can hold its own in a head-to-head comparison," says Major.

The People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN), too, is numerically superior to the Indian Navy. Compared to our 135 warships, the Chinese fleet has close to 400 vessels, but the PLAN lacks robust blue-water capabilities to deploy forces far away from its shores.

EXPANDING FOOTPRINT

China is aggressively working on expanding its footprint in the Indian Ocean region, which the Indian Navy regards as its own backyard. The PLAN's first aircraft carrier Varyag — bought from Russia in 1998 — is currently undergoing sea trials.

China eventually wants to deploy four to five carriers, an ambition that symbolises its growing maritime appetite.

Former navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta says, "We currently have an edge but the equation may change in a decade when the PLAN stabilises its integral air elements. They have also made significant advances in building new destroyers. We can't afford to fall behind in fleet modernisation."

There are other flanks that need to be covered as well. The army has not bought a single new artillery gun since the Bofors scandal exploded in the late 1980s. The $4 billion ( Rs. 22,000 crore) artillery modernisation plan has failed to take off.

Kanwal warns: "Firepower is a serious handicap. Also, we don't have a mountain strike corps, limiting our capability to take the war deep into Chinese territory."

 

[W.G.Ewald]

There are other flanks that need to be covered as well. The army has not bought a single new artillery gun since the Bofors scandal exploded in the late 1980s. The $4 billion ( 22,000 crore) artillery modernisation plan has failed to take off.

Any progress at all? Anybody thinking about arty modernization? Anybody thinking of the consequences of no progress?

Kanwal warns: "Firepower is a serious handicap. Also, we don't have a mountain strike corps, limiting our capability to take the war deep into Chinese territory."

Mountain warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Indian Army is among the most experienced and best trained[citation needed] in mountain warfare having fought numerous conflicts in the Himalayas in Arunachal Pradesh and Jammu and Kashmir while maintaining one of the largest active contingents of mountain warfare forces in the world, giving the Indian Army some of the most extensive and well-developed Mountain Warfare capabilities. Major conflicts include the 1962 Sino-Indian War and the Kargil War in 1999. Siachen Glacier is the world's highest battlefield, with about 3000 Indian troops on year round deployment on the edge of a glacier. For over two decades, India & Pakistan have fought numerous skirmishes in this most inhospitable of mountain territories, at altitudes over 6000 meters (20,000 feet) and at temperatures as low as -50 Celsius.

Due to the instability in the region and the need for permanent deployments in the mountainous regions, India's mountain warfare units were vastly expanded after the 1962 war, with the creation of 6 Mountain Divisions.[3] The Indian Army presently has 10 Army Divisions dedicated to mountain warfare (8 Mountain Divisions and 2 Mountain Strike divisions) and another infantry division earmarked for high altitude operations. Each division has a personnel strength of 10,000-13,000 troops and consists of 3 brigades with 3,000 to 4,500 men each, including support elements such as signals, provost, and intelligence units.[4]

In 2008, the Indian Army has sanctioned plans to raise two additional mountain divisions, with goals to be operational in five years. The two divisions will also have extensive air assets, including Utility helicopters, Helicopter gunships and Attack helicopters.[4]

 

[Zebra]

It is a cycle of these kind of news.

The media one day will say we are still preparing, then after some time one day it will say we are prepared and all of a sudden the same media will say we are not yet prepared and still trying to catch up.

Try to connect this cycle with GoI's deals for weapons.

You will get much clear picture.

OR

Correct me if I am wrong. Please.

 

[DaTang]

Isn't Indian Navy far ahead of China? I am surprised.

INS Virrat was commissioned on April 24, 1986, on the other hand, the Chinese carrier has not been officially enlisted. India is at least 26 years ahead of China.

As Dragon multiplies its war toys, India plays catch-up

In 2009, the Indian Army carried out top-secret war games — codenamed Divine Matrix — aimed at analysing China's threat to the country. The conclusion: China could attack India by 2017, and there was a possibility of Pakistan stirring the pot by trying to trouble India at the same time.
Three years later, while there are no immediate signs of hostility on either border, a rare visit by China's defence minister to India last week has thrown into focus the latter's military capabilities to defend itself in a volatile neighbourhood, where India has fought five wars since Independence.

While Beijing hailed General Liang Guanglie's visit to India — the first by a Chinese defence minister in eight years — as "successful", our military experts have cautioned against taking the eyes off the ball on the security implications of China's rapidly modernising military.

Pakistan, they say, is not even seeded in the game. "We have adequate deterrence against Pakistan, but the policy of dissuasion against China needs to be upgraded to credible deterrence so that Beijing can't spring a surprise. We are not quite there yet," says strategic affairs expert Brig Gurmeet Kanwal (retd).

STOCKING UP

With its defence outlay for 2012 officially pegged at $106.41 billion ( Rs. 5.85 lakh crore), but actual military spending suspected to be twice as much, China is buffing up its war stores with strategic missiles, space-based assets, aircraft carriers, fighter jets and warships.

China's focus has shifted from land forces to air force and navy to expand its military reach.

India's defence outlay of $35.09 billion ( Rs. 1.93 lakh crore) pales before China's military spending. Islamabad, meanwhile, will spend $6 billion ( Rs. 33,000 crore) on defence this year, not factoring in American aid.

India hasn't ignored the possibility of a two-front war at a time when Beijing's strategic intentions remain unclear.

Defence minister AK Antony told Parliament in May that his ministry would seek an additional outlay of $8.18 billion ( Rs. 45,000 crore) from the Centre, factoring in "changed threat perception", a euphemism for the possibility of China and Pakistan coming together.

If such a scenario were to crop up, the Indian strategy would revolve around defeating Pakistan and holding China, experts said.

The proposed increase will take India's defence expenditure from 1.9% of the GDP to 2.35%. The country's defence spending averaged 1.59% of the GDP from 1947 to 1962, when our army suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of the Chinese.

Experts have argued India's defence spending ought to be around 3% of the GDP to keep up with China's military build-up.

NEED FOR SPEED

New Delhi is pumping billions into fighting machines such as stealth jets, modern fighter, aircraft carriers, nuclear-powered submarines, submarine hunter planes, special operations aircraft and attack helicopters. But the pace of induction needs to be sped up.

Former IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Major says, "One-party autocracy is the secret behind China's swift military upgrade. Democracies will have their delays."

STRENGTH IN NUMBERS

China is hard to beat in terms of sheer numbers. The People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) reportedly operates upwards of 3,500 aircraft, though much of the inventory consists of outdated designs. In comparison, the IAF has a fleet of 600-plus fighters.

But the PLAAF is fast ridding itself of obsolete platforms from the 1960s and inducting fighters such as Sukhoi-30s and JF-17 Thunder light combat aircraft.

"China may be upgrading rapidly but let's not place it on a huge pedestal. The IAF can hold its own in a head-to-head comparison," says Major.

The People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN), too, is numerically superior to the Indian Navy. Compared to our 135 warships, the Chinese fleet has close to 400 vessels, but the PLAN lacks robust blue-water capabilities to deploy forces far away from its shores.

EXPANDING FOOTPRINT

China is aggressively working on expanding its footprint in the Indian Ocean region, which the Indian Navy regards as its own backyard. The PLAN's first aircraft carrier Varyag — bought from Russia in 1998 — is currently undergoing sea trials.

China eventually wants to deploy four to five carriers, an ambition that symbolises its growing maritime appetite.

Former navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta says, "We currently have an edge but the equation may change in a decade when the PLAN stabilises its integral air elements. They have also made significant advances in building new destroyers. We can't afford to fall behind in fleet modernisation."

There are other flanks that need to be covered as well. The army has not bought a single new artillery gun since the Bofors scandal exploded in the late 1980s. The $4 billion ( Rs. 22,000 crore) artillery modernisation plan has failed to take off.

Kanwal warns: "Firepower is a serious handicap. Also, we don't have a mountain strike corps, limiting our capability to take the war deep into Chinese territory."

 

[drkrn]

better for us to concentrate more on army and air force rather than navy

our navy is already strong enough to take down Pakistani navy and also keep china at a distance

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Talking practically China has more numbers in ARMY also, as mentioned above by "drkrn" , we have to concentrate more on ARMY and AIRFORCE......

 

[Phenom]

There should be strong focus on navy.

AF and Army can only fight wars, but the navy can also intimidate. Its unlikely that India and China would fight wars but its more likely that both would sabre-rattle in SE Asia and even East China sea, that can only be done by the navy.

 

[Kranthi]

Navy is a Must and more important area to focus on.

With india growing as economical power,we are not anymore confined to regional conflicts.
With army and airforce we can only settle border conflicts.
We are already more than capable to defeat pak in any case and china is less likely to raise a conflict with india and even if it does,we can handle it as china is not pakistan to get into an all out war,anything that happens will b settled within a very short time.

So navy is the 1st preference to focus.

 

[no smoking]

There should be strong focus on navy.

AF and Army can only fight wars, but the navy can also intimidate. Its unlikely that India and China would fight wars but its more likely that both would sabre-rattle in SE Asia and even East China sea, that can only be done by the navy.

Chinese navy would welcome the idea of fighting indian ship in SE Asia and East China! Nothing can be better!

 

[Bheeshma]

Chinese navy needs to have the ability to fight. It simply does not. It can only sit in SCS and hope USN, JSMDF, or IN do not come close. It has nothing to counter the Akula/Soryu or LA/Virginia class boats forget the CVN's or Aegis (real) class equipped destroyers.

 

[natarajan]

Seeing the number of frigates and destroyer ,it is better order more frigates like talwar class

 

[Bheeshma]

Why? Thats what the P-17a and P-28's are for. The P-15a/b are in a different class.

 

[J20!]

Chinese navy needs to have the ability to fight. It simply does not. It can only sit in SCS and hope USN, JSMDF, or IN do not come close. It has nothing to counter the Akula/Soryu or LA/Virginia class boats forget the CVN's or Aegis (real) class equipped destroyers.

When discussing a topic as flammable as a China vs India thread, its wise to always be factual. There's nothing factual about your statement.

The IN as of today still has no true long range AAW ships, the South Sea fleet alone has 2. The PLAN has 7 AIP subs, the IN has none. If the PLAN, the bigger navy, with more than double surface vessels, more money, more than 4 times the subs, more surveillance satellites, more communication satellites, the largest Asian amphibious force, more replenishment ships etc etc doesn't have "the ability to fight" then what does that say about the Indian Navy?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

What again ?

When discussing a topic as flammable as a China vs India thread, its wise to always be factual. There's nothing factual about your statement.

The IN as of today still has no true long range AAW ships, the South Sea fleet alone has 2. The PLAN has 7 AIP subs, the IN has none. If the PLAN, the bigger navy, with more than double surface vessels, more money, more than 4 times the subs, more surveillance satellites, more communication satellites, the largest Asian amphibious force, more replenishment ships etc etc doesn't have "the ability to fight" then what does that say about the Indian Navy?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Regarding the article, Its title and content..

Its simple exaggerated points for rating..

 

[J20!]

There are no JF17 in the PLA's roster as the article says, n second, the Pentagon rates China's defence spending at between 120 and 180 billion dollars, no where near double the official $106 billion($212 billion) as given by the article...

I agree with Kunal, the article is scaremongering, as opposed to those here who try to downplay the PLAN's abilities and hype the IN's...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The Article is flawed coz its objective is not a honest comparison but a spicy content for rating..

IN and PLAN both have there advantages and disadvantages, In my View IN has upper hand in its own territory..

 

[Bheeshma]

The fact is China has a coastal navy. The largest most potent asian navy is JMSDF. Chinese subs are not wanted even by ally like pakistan that would rather go around looking for french, german or any half decent western sub. The chinese planes or ships are bought after they fail to get second hand western alternatives. Why is that? These facts must say something.

 

[J20!]

The fact is China has a coastal navy. The largest most potent asian navy is JMSDF. Chinese subs are not wanted even by ally like pakistan that would rather go around looking for french, german or any half decent western sub. The chinese planes or ships are bought after they fail to get second hand western alternatives. Why is that? These facts must say something.

You haven't backed up your coastal claim still or countered any of my arguments... Give me a source for what you're saying... The Pakistani's actually GAVE UP their deal for German SSK's for Chinese analogs. That should tell YOU something. The fact that the PLAN gave up buying SSK's and Destroyers from Russia like the Kilo's or the Sovremeney's should tell you something as well. That the PLAN is able to acquire AIP SSK's domestically, from Chinese shipyards in today's hostile and very competitive Pacific environment should also prove their quality. When the PLAN could not source quality ships from Chinese shipyards in the 90's they looked abroad with the Kilo's and the Sovremeneys. That is the stage the IN is at now with Indian shipyards unable to produce domestic designs, thus the Scorpene deal and the new 6 sub tender. If Chinese shipyards couldn't produce quality warships the PLAN would look to Russia again like it has done in the past. And looking at the sad shape of Russian shipyards, are they even comparable to the modern well-equipped Chinese shipyards like HD, HP, Dialan, JN etc etc which churn out more modern warship than Indian and Russian shipyards combined?

Chinese shipyards perfected they're shipbuilding techniques over several designs as is evident in the long chain of the Type 051/052 AAW destroyer family over the past decade and a half since the first indigenously designed Type 052 in '94 then the Type 051B in '98 the 052B in 2004, the S300FM carrying 051C in 2006, and the Chinese first generation AESA AAW destroyer for the PLAN the type 052C in 2005 and now the recently launched Chinese 2nd generation AESA AAW Type 052D.
That's 7 years of maturing in active service between the 052C and 052D. Of course the learning curve for India will be shorter due to the input of western tech, but Chinese shipyards are ahead of their Indian counterparts considering that they may have their 2nd generation AESA destroye(type 052D)r in service before their Indian counterparts launch their first gen AESA destroyer in the P15A.

You cant tell me that after that long 18 year development period over 6 evolutionary designs that those GIGANTIC shipyards with all they're shipbuilding technology still cant they produce class quality warships. Same goes for the Kilo, Song, Yuan, Qing class SSK's and the Jiangwei I, Jiangwei II, type 054 and Type 054A frigates. They have been honing their modern warship shipbuilding prowess over decades.

The PLAN has 16 modern frigates next to the IN's 7 and 3 modern long range AESA equipped AAW destroyers versus the IN's 0, 7 AIP subs versus IN's 0 and 4 modern electric drive SSN's versus the IN's 1, I wont even mention the LPD and Marines department. Only the JMSDF right now can challenge the PLAN in modern warships amongst Asian navies, and that wont last long given the PLAN's rapid acquisition of ships. If we are coastal, what are you?

Forgive me for the rant bra, but I cant help blurt everything out like that when people question PLAN warship's not based on facts and knowledge but on bias and in ignorance.

 

[mikhail]

You haven't backed up your coastal claim still or countered any of my arguments... Give me a source for what you're saying... The Pakistani's actually GAVE UP their deal for German SSK's for Chinese analogs. That should tell YOU something. The fact that the PLAN gave up buying SSK's and Destroyers from Russia like the Kilo's or the Sovremeney's should tell you something as well. That the PLAN is able to acquire AIP SSK's domestically, from Chinese shipyards in today's hostile and very competitive Pacific environment should also prove their quality. When the PLAN could not source quality ships from Chinese shipyards in the 90's they looked abroad with the Kilo's and the Sovremeneys. That is the stage the IN is at now with Indian shipyards unable to produce domestic designs, thus the Scorpene deal and the new 6 sub tender. If Chinese shipyards couldn't produce quality warships the PLAN would look to Russia again like it has done in the past. And looking at the sad shape of Russian shipyards, are they even comparable to the modern well-equipped Chinese shipyards like HD, HP, Dialan, JN etc etc which churn out more modern warship than Indian and Russian shipyards combined?

Chinese shipyards perfected they're shipbuilding techniques over several designs as is evident in the long chain of the Type 051/052 AAW destroyer family over the past decade and a half since the first indigenously designed Type 052 in '94 then the Type 051B in '98 the 052B in 2004, the S300FM carrying 051C in 2006, and the Chinese first generation AESA AAW destroyer for the PLAN the type 052C in 2005 and now the recently launched Chinese 2nd generation AESA AAW Type 052D.
That's 7 years of maturing in active service between the 052C and 052D. Of course the learning curve for India will be shorter due to the input of western tech, but Chinese shipyards are ahead of their Indian counterparts considering that they may have their 2nd generation AESA destroye(type 052D)r in service before their Indian counterparts launch their first gen AESA destroyer in the P15A.

You cant tell me that after that long 18 year development period over 6 evolutionary designs that those GIGANTIC shipyards with all they're shipbuilding technology still cant they produce class quality warships. Same goes for the Kilo, Song, Yuan, Qing class SSK's and the Jiangwei I, Jiangwei II, type 054 and Type 054A frigates. They have been honing their modern warship shipbuilding prowess over decades.

The PLAN has 16 modern frigates next to the IN's 7 and 3 modern long range AESA equipped AAW destroyers versus the IN's 0, 7 AIP subs versus IN's 0 and 4 modern electric drive SSN's versus the IN's 1, I wont even mention the LPD and Marines department. Only the JMSDF right now can challenge the PLAN in modern warships amongst Asian navies, and that wont last long given the PLAN's rapid acquisition of ships. If we are coastal, what are you?

Forgive me for the rant bra, but I cant help blurt everything out like that when people question PLAN warship's not based on facts and knowledge but on bias and in ignorance.

come on mate we all know about the chini quantity and quality theory.just by having a large navy doesn't give you any tactical edge over the IN and remember one thing if a fighting happens between IN and PLAN it will take place in the IOR.in this scenario IN will have an upper edge over PLAN as it has a vast amount of experience in the IOR region!and regarding technology most of IN's tech is either western or russian which is far superior than any the chinese currently have now in their disposal!:cool2:
Weapon systems of the Indian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of active Indian Navy ships - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia