Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by .v0id, Feb 12, 2009.
I guess i jumped the gun, and so did several journals on the third batch ordered in 2009.
Well there are hundreds of other high visibility designs they could have used. But yet chose to retain this colonial legacy shit !
Why would Indian Navy be apologetic of it's colonial past?
Well it should be, given that the British Empire enslaved and destroyed our nation so badly (Bengal famine is but one example). In no other country do you find such worshipping of a brutal invader and enemy. Any other country would have moved to quickly cut ties with such a brutal past , like how Germany did after WW 2
Aircraft Carrier #INSVikramaditya was formally affiliated to The Bihar Regiment
& No 6 Squadron
. A look at the glittering ceremony held onboard #INSVikramaditya on 18 Jan 18 (1/2).
00:42 is that tune is kadam kadam badhye jaa???
I've discussed about it to two ex-guys from Navy (one is still active on the forum,one was from a discord server) and i am gonna put whatever i discussed and my opinions on the matter.
> First,some background
Naval Ensign of former British Indian Navy,as one may have guessed,was this
^This is also called "White Ensign" or "Saint George's Ensign" in UK because it has Saint George's Cross on it (which is also Flag of England) with Union Jack on its Top Left side
Saint George's Cross,also Flag of England
Importantly,the same 'White Ensign' // 'Saint George's Ensign' was Naval Ensign of the Royal Indian Navy till 1950,too.
Later we adopted this one as Ensign of the Indian Navy (of Repubilc of India)
Naval Ensign of Indian Navy (from 1950 to 2001)
This is exactly same 'White Ensign' with Saint George's Cross on it with Union Jack replaced with Flag of India
After this,in 2001 (UNDER GOVERNMENT OF ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE JI) We adopted a new Naval Ensign which totally dropped Saint George's Cross part and replaced it with Emblem of the Indian Navy in its default navy blue/indigo-ish colour
Naval Ensign of the Indian Navy (from 2001 to 2004)
Aftet adopting this issues related to Visibility arose as "Blue Emblem gets mixed with bluewaters of sea/ocean" so they switched back to the older ensign with the Lion Capital of Ashoka on its centre IN 2004 (SAME YEAR GOVERNMENT OF ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE FALL AND NEW GOVERNMENT UNDER INDIAN NATIONAL CONGRESS LED UPA CAME TO POWER ? )
Naval Ensign of the Indian Navy (from 2004 to 2014)
it was changed again in 2014 (SAME YEAR NARENDRA MODI SWORE AS PRIME MINISTER AFTER A DECADE OF RULE OF INDIAN NATIONAL CONGRESS LED UPA ?),albeit slightly as they just put "Satyamev Jayate" slogan under the lion capital in above ensign as
current Naval Ensign of the Indian Navy (since 2014)
>from what i discussed with those two ex-Navy guys i was able to get two different reasons from each two
First reason was common "Visibility" one
BUT second reason that i got was surprisingly this (i am copying it as it was said to me)
"Official reason : Not visible properly from distant visual range not discernible
Real Reason: St. George ka prakop he is our patron saint , lot of accidents happened that had no logical explanation almost supernatural"
so....yeah ? Even this day Indian Navy's traditions consider this संत George as their Patron like their former avatar as Royal Indian Navy under their colonial masters.
And this TRADITIONS itself is a big part among our armed forces which basically are preserving many of their former master's NISHAANIYAAN in one form or other,be it straight european pattern swords in drills (with some exceptions to Sikh Light Infanty which prefers Tulwars) to "Derived Versions" of the flags,i mean look at what other branches are doing...
Flag of the British Army
Flag of the Royal Indian Army
Crest of the Indian Army
Air Force Ensign of the Royal Air Force
Air Force Ensign of the Indian Air Force
>My Opinions on this matter
Naturally,i fucking hate Saint George's Cross on Ensign of the Indian Navy,and no i won't fucking believe the argument of "Oh it has Lion Emblem on it so it's not Saint George's Cross anymore" BECAUSE IT STILL MAJORLY IS THE FLAG OF OUR COLONIAL OCCUPIERS.
As for Visibility issues,i call it BULLSHIT of highest orders
I mean look at this particular example of Royal Malaysian Navy's Ensigns from Past and Present for a minute,
Naval Ensign of the Royal Malaysian Navy till 1968
Current Naval Ensign of the Royal Malaysian Navy
See how similar it was to our case of changing Naval Ensign in 2001,SO IF MALAYSIANS COULD PERFECTLY SEE THE BLUE PART AFTER CHANGING THEIR NAVAL ENSIGN WHY FUCKING COULD NOT INDIANS SEE SIMILAR PART IN THEIR NAVAL ENSIGN ?
some more similar examples
*Canada too had same Naval Ensign as UK one till 1965,then they started using Canadian Flag as naval ensign and in 2013 adopted this
Naval Ensign of the Canadian Navy (since 2013)
so they could see blue parts in their naval ensign,but somehow Indians could not see similar part in theirs.
*Naval Ensign of the Burmese / Myanmar Navy till 1974
and they replaced it with this
Current Naval Ensign of the Myanmar Navy (since 1974)
So these Burmese could perfectly see blue Anchor in their naval ensign,but somehow Indians could not see similar part in theirs.
Even if it was a genuine issue (i don't believe it was because IF OTHERS CAN SEE SUCH THINGS IN THEIR ENSIGNS WHY CANNOT INDIANS ) then why even bringing Saint George's Cross altogether back to the naval ensign at first place ?
Look at what Sri Lanka and Bangladesh did with their naval ensigns
Naval Ensign of the Royal Ceylon Navy (till 1972)
Current Naval Ensign of the Sri Lanka Navy
Even these guys had Saint George's Cross back when they were Ceylon,but after becoming Sri Lanka they completely droped it,
so if 'Blue Part Not Being Visible' was REALLY the issue,why did not they adopt something like this with Indian Flag at Top Left,after all that is what it is at very base
Naval Ensign of theBangladesh Navy
Finally,i totally blame current masters (aka Government of India) for this whole thing(as Indian Navy would salute and wave whatever will be given as naval ensign to them) and I strongly believe more than said TRADITIONS it was political thing that brought back Saint George's Cross back to the naval ensign,they just later altered it with Lion Capital to not raise suspecions and objections from patriotic-nationalist bunchs,Modi Sarkaar went further and put 'Satyamev Jayate' under it.
A sidenote,You folks remember under NDA-2 Prasaar Bhaarti removed "Satyam Shivam Sundaram" from DoorDarshan's logo which was restored back once Modi Sarkaar came to power,i sense very similar thing to that with this whole drama of Saint George's Cross in our naval ensign.
But i think one thing which is also their that LION EMBLEM and Devanagari script: Satyameva Jayate सत्यमेव जयते Truth Alone Triumphs. This is a quote from Mundaka Upanishad. the concluding part of the sacred Hindu Vedas.
Always over power any flag design.
But i agree it's high time to change this historic BS i hope CDS will look into that.
( i don't think that navy wants to promote colonial legacy. They always remain in forefront to promote India's maritime heritage.
For example this video )
Yes,Naval Ensign with Lion Emblem and सत्यमेव जयते both embedded on it was adopted in 2014 after Modi Sarkaar came to power,Naval Ensign before that (from 2004 to 2014 , one that got adopted under Manmohan Sarkaar // UPA) was the one that brought back Sain George's Cross // "White Ensign" thing with only Lion Emblem on it i.e. bringing back ANGREZO KA JHANDAA with Lion Emblem on its centre so,as i said before,people would not raise suspicions and objections over their intention of bringing it back (at least this is what i think).
Hhmm after discussing with an ex-Navy guy about same issue i am not of that opinion as he was firm believer of this TRADITIONS part that i said above,he actually confirmed with "Aye" when someone else asked if he believes we are following the colonial legacy in the Indian Armed Forces by doing so.
Perhaps there is some grey lining between all these things which i,as a civilian,am not able to understand...only someone from the Forces would be able to explain // discuss it here.
Maybe @Bhadra sir or @Kunal Biswas dada or so.
BTW OFF-TOPIC & A SIDENOTE
Since we were talking about Traditions of Armed Forces etc etc,wanted to share an Important part of our past that is quite unknown to commoners...
->After independence,One task was remaining and that was to replace regimental colours of then total 35 infantry batallions from british era one to newly independence state,Republic of India.
->The task of choosing new regimental colours was meant to be done by Government of India but it was delayed and delayed.
->When we fought 1947-1948 war with Pakistan,our army fought with british regimental colours!
->Even after ending of the war,Government did nothing to replace those regimental colours.
->Batalion Commanders themselves got fed up of those 'signs of slavery' and on 23rd November,1950 they handed those 35 regimental colours back to Indian Military Academy,at that handovering ceremony,officers were crying,not because they had to bid farewell of those regimental colours but there were no new ones to replace them (since government had not brought out new replacement ones).How were they going to lead those armymen if there's no prideful symbol waving over their heads ?
At the end of handovering ceremony,they had played 'God Save The King' on military band BECAUSE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA HAD NOT INSTRUCTED A NEW SONG TO THE ARMY!!
after all these demoralizing things occured to the army,they themselves adopted new symbols and songs (mainly 'Saare Jahan Se Achcha..' nd 'Kadam Kadam Badhaye Jaa..') to keep up morale of those armymen.
First new regimental colours and song was given to Kumaon Regiment since first PVC honour was given to their officer Major Somnat Sharma,and the time very first new regimental colour+song was assigned to a regiment (Kumaon) ? 1961!! Remaining regiments had to wait till completion of 1962 Sino-Indian War!!!
So,for some 12 to 15 years,Regiments of Indian Army had to wait for new regimental colours + songs while virtually having not one at first place!
(Source - Safari Magazine,Issue no.106,September 2002
Source for post above is posted below here,but it is in Gujarati so i've put translation as the post)
Plus,I had anoter cutting from newspaper where the author of article had mentioned about the way we conduct parade was virtually changed from British way to Russian Way in Nehru era since Nehru was impressed with the way Ruskied conducted parade.You have noticed that when marching group is passing by the dignitories,they make a move and give a salute to them while focusing at them - This way of giving salute to the dignitories was not present in our army till 1950s.Salute was given but not by looking at the dignitories.Nehru simply put that way of saluting dignitories because he liked it.
(Unfortunately i don't have this newspapper cutting with me anymore as one day my mum decided to throw away those cuttings i kept in my file considering it all 'unnecessary' and so )
MoD expert rejects foreign helicopter, HAL says Dhruv is suitable
With the ministry of defence (MoD) poised to sanction on Friday a Rs 21,738 crore project to build 111 naval utility helicopters (NUH) in an Indian private sector firm, an MoD expert has suggested the project be scrapped. The MoD and the navy want the NUH to be a foreign helicopter, built through the “strategic partner” (SP) model. This involves selecting a deep-pocketed Indian private firm as the SP, which will build the helicopters in India using technology supplied by a separately selected foreign “original equipment manufacturer (OEM).
However, former integrated defence staff chief, Vice Admiral Raman Puri (retired), who the department of defence production (DDP) has appointed as a consultant, has advised against inducting a foreign helicopter as NUH, when defence public sector unit Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is in a position to supply a naval version of its indigenous Dhruv advanced light helicopter (ALH).
Puri has recommended the indigenous Dhruv chopper over a foreign design, citing Para 23 of Chapter II of the Defence Procurement Policy of 2016 (DPP-2016), which states: “Preference will be given to indigenous design, development and manufacture of defence equipment. Therefore, whenever the required arms, ammunition and equipment are possible to be made by Indian industry, within the time lines required by the services, the procurement will be made from Indian sources.”
On November 19, the MoD asked HAL for its comments. HAL has replied that it is “generally in agreement with the viewpoints provided by the consultant.”
Puri also pointed out that Para 23 states: “Accordingly the [MoD’s] categorisation committee, while considering categorisation under the DPP will follow a preferred order of categorisation,” in which “Buy (Indian – IDDM)” is top priority. IDDM is the acronym for “Indian Designed, Developed and Manufactured,” a criterion the Dhruv ALH meets.
HAL has pointed out to the MoD that the Dhruv ALH has been in operation with the navy and coast guard for about two decades. It notes: “ALH has proved its robustness in all operating conditions, as validated by accruing more than 260,000 flying hours and [flying] more than 280 helicopters in the services of various customers.”
The navy has opted for a foreign helicopter, to be built on the SP model, because the Dhruv ALH does not have foldable rotor blades that allow it to be parked within the cramped confines of a hangar on a warship.
But HAL’s response to the MoD states: “The design of ALH is such that role change can be achieved with minimum modifications and minimum time, which will enable the navy to use this helicopter…”
HAL wrote that, while it did not earlier possess technology for foldable blades for the Dhruv, it “initiated a project with internal funding to design and develop a blade/tail boom folding mechanism on the ALH, which will meet the stowage requirements of the NUH.”
HAL executives say foldable blades can be easily developed in 2-3 years, a period shorter than what the MoD would take to sign a global NUH contract.
HAL’s letter also notes that the tender requires the foreign OEM to transfer nine critical technologies, which include a rotor system, transmission system, hydraulics, self-sealing fuel tanks, vibration isolation system and others. “All these critical technologies are available with HAL in the case of the ALH-based NUH, as it is HAL’s own development,” says HAL’s letter, which Business Standard has reviewed.
HAL also claims that “many other critical and advanced technologies [are] available with HAL, like the avionics system, glass cockpit, composite airframe technologies etc.”
Puri’s recommendations also reflect his opinion that it would be wasteful to buy a foreign helicopter, pay for transfer of technology, and develop manufacturing capability in an Indian private sector SP when all this already exists with HAL.
He has pointed out that the SP’s new manufacturing line would have no work after building 111 NUHs for the navy. The “transfer of technology” cost paid to the OEM and the cost of setting up a new NUH production line would make a foreign NUH far more expensive than the Dhruv, which HAL already manufactures in Bengaluru.
“Since the ALH-based NUH is conceived, designed and developed by HAL, there is no necessity for any ToT and thus a substantial amount of foreign exchange… can be saved,” HAL has argued.
HAL has also pointed out that it would be able to integrate weapons and sensors to meet the navy’s requirements in the future, upgrade the platform at any stage in its life-cycle, resolve technical issues and carry out “obsolescence management”, which involves ensuring the supply of spare parts all through its service life.
Puri’s intervention and HAL’s argument will not be welcomed by private sector firms who have responded to the MoD’s NUH tender. These includeTataAdvanced Systems Ltd, Adani Defence, Mahindra Defence, Reliance Defence and the Kalyani Group. In addition HAL submitted two responses – one in its individual capacity and another in a joint venture with Russian Helicopters Ltd called Indo-Russian Helicopters Ltd (IRHL).
The foreign helicopters in the fray include two Airbus helicopters – the AS 565 Mbe (Panther) and the H145M – as well as US firm Sikorsky’s S76D and the Russian Kamov 226T. The Panther is regarded as the front runner.
Sea Ceptor Supersonic Missile Defence System Offered To Indian Navy
L&T MBDA Missile Systems Ltd has submitted its first bid to the Indian Armed Forces- offering the latest generation Sea Ceptor naval air defence system, in its RFP response for the Indian Navy’s Short-Range Surface to Air Missile (SRSAM) requirement.
The Sea Ceptor, that made its debut at DefExpo-2018, will be built in India. It provides complete protection against multiple air targets simultaneously. Sea Ceptor utilises the Common Anti-air Modular Missile (CAMM) that features a fully active RF-seeker, two-way datalink and soft-vertical launch system.
A new functional simulator for ATGM5 anti-tank guided missile will make its debut at DefExpo-2020, the joint venture between Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and European MBDA said in a statement.
In addition, the company has offered Exocet MM40 Block 3 short-range anti-ship cruise missiles in response to India’s RFI for the Medium Range Anti-Ship Missile.
Presently, MBDA is delivering MICA air-to-air missile systems, and METEOR ramjet powered and network-enabled beyond visual range air-to- air missiles, and SCALP missiles for Indian Air Force (IAF) Rafale fighters.
According to the company, the MICA is the only missile in the world featuring two interoperable seekers (active radar and imaging infrared) to cover the spectrum from close-in dogfight to long beyond visual range. Its ability to fly out to BVR in passive mode before the seeker locks on in the final stages of the end game has earned it the nickname “silent killer” as the target has little time to react or to deploy effective countermeasures.
The METEOR missile has a throttleable ramjet engine, active radar seeker and datalink that combine to provide unmatched end- game speed and manoeuvrability at greatly extended ranges, resulting in its all-important ‘No-Escape Zone’ being several times greater than any other existing or planned BVR weapons, the company claims.
The SCALP missile has the ability to deliver precision strike against high value targets such as well protected control bunkers/centres, key infrastructures and military installations from a safe stand-off distance, MBDA said.
The IAF is also taking the delivery of ASRAAM fire-and-forget missiles for India's fleet of upgraded Jaguar jets, bought under New Generation Close Combat Missile programme.
India's indigenously-built Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Dhruv and Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) have been armed with MBDA Mistral ATAM air-to-air missile launchers. "MBDA will exhibit at DEFEXPO 2020 this very high-performing man portable air defence system (MANPADS) that has already performed exceptionally well in firing evaluation trials for India, more than meeting India’s operational requirements and what was demanded of the missile system in mountain, desert and maritime conditions. As well as the operational advantages of the Mistral missile, there are major industrial advantages being offered if Mistral is selected for India’s VSHORAD requirement, with the missile to be fully manufactured under license in India. As Mistral has already been selected and integrated into the ATAM helicopter launch system for India’s helicopters (namely ALH and LCH), operating Mistral as a MANPADS system will offer major logistics and stock management advantages," the statement read.
The JV will exhibit Exocet anti-ship missiles, MARTE ER anti-ship missile weapon systems, long-range Naval Cruise Missile (NCM), Mistrals, and SCALP missiles at DefExpo-2020 to be held in Lucknow, Uttar Pradesh state, between 5-8 February.
Wouldn't the whole world know exactly where the SSBN is?.. How do they avoid that?
it is from submerged platform.
That's the point of SSBN... But this big a smoke trail would be caught from satellite or other sources & they'd get a general idea of the location of the submarine.
Do they travel underwater to mask the location, or rise straight up from the VLS?
they are not firing it from submarine yet and moreover go and watch on YouTube there are thousands of videos of SSBN firing missiles.
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