Indian Navy Begins Search For New Large Landing Ships

[Crusader53]

I think we are getting a little off topic here! Please, everybody go back to there corners and sit down..........Thank You

 

[Ray]

Keep calm and keep things Civil in language.

What do we want these LSDs for?

How many do we want?

What is the strategic picture where these LSDs fit in?

Do we have the Navy to back the strategic vision?

Get those things right and then go gung ho!

Has our Look East policy got into action?

if not, then one could build on a hypothesis.

What is that hypothesis and what all will be required?

Just LSDs?

If IN is keen on LSDs, then why are they keen to do so, given the CURRENT defence and foreign policy parameters?

 

[Adux]

Keep calm and keep things Civil in language.

Hello Brigadier, Long time.

What do we want these LSDs for?

They would be LPD's or LHD's not LSD's. Establish Beach heads, Island Hoping and

An amphibious transport dock, also called a landing platform dock (LPD), is an amphibious warfare ship, a warship that embarks, transports, and lands elements of a landing force for expeditionary warfare missions.[1] Several navies currently operate this kind of ship. The ships are generally designed to transport troops into a war zone by sea, primarily using landing craft, although invariably they also have the capability to operate transport helicopters

How many do we want?

IN is ordering 4, keeping track of its procurement policies expect another improved 4 too.

What is the strategic picture where these LSDs fit in?

Navy which is capable of enforcing its will in South East Asia.

Do we have the Navy to back the strategic vision?

No.

Get those things right and then go gung ho!

Americans at any given point of time have 10 LPD, 8 LHD's. We are on our way to make atleast half that number. Why is such expeditionary capacity being built? This is not about being gung ho, I am not of the opinion that Indian Military Planners are a bunch of panzies and white flag waving idiots. There should be reason and strategic objective for this. It might not be easy for a lot of Indians to imagine our country being aggressive, but it is the same country that did Op Meghdoot.

Has our Look East policy got into action?

Yes. Vietnam is the success story, Japan is ongoing and South Korea: moves are being made.

If IN is keen on LSDs, then why are they keen to do so, given the CURRENT defence and foreign policy parameters?

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090130/jsp/frontpage/story_10460609.jsp

US Marines model for amphibious force
SUJAN DUTTA

Members of the Indian Navy's Marine Commandos atop a float during the Republic Day parade in New Delhi. (AP)
New Delhi, Jan. 29: India's armed forces have begun reforming their order of battle by creating their version of the US Marines.

The reform comes with the import of new technologies and ideas of warfare that demand synchronised operations of the army, navy and the air force.

An Indian Army brigade will be re-designated as an amphibious force next month that will be tasked with offensive and defensive operations from the sea.

This also marks the beginning of a change in the military mindset from a static force fundamentally responsible for protecting borders to an expeditionary service capable of operating away from the mainland — a kind of warfare integral to the military dominance the US demonstrates around the globe.

Although the training of the 91 Infantry Brigade, now based in Thiruvananthapuram, began over a year ago, it is after the Mumbai terror strike that the urgency for such a force has been most felt.

The first effort to create such a dedicated force was mooted by the naval headquarters as it prepared to acquire the landing platform dock, the INS Jalashva, earlier the USS Trenton, in 2007.

By exporting the Trenton to the Indian Navy, the Pentagon transferred not only a warship but also the whole idea of expeditionary warfare that the Indian military had so far been chary about.

In the 2003 war on Iraq, the US 15th Marine Expeditionary Force showed the devastating potential of a marine assault by beaching near the port of Umm Qasr and cutting a swathe all the way to Baghdad.

In the US, the Marines are under the department of the navy. But India's amphibious brigade will still be a part of its army, though the navy has its own similar outfit in the Marine Commandos.

The brigade being converted into the Marines has been drawn from battalions of the Sikh, Gorkha and Madras regiments. Its role will include, apart from offensive operations in the event of hostilities, also the protection of offshore assets like Bombay High.

Earlier this month, the amphibious brigade was part of a tri-service war game named Triveni centred on an island in the Lakshadweep and Minicoy group.

That was followed by a brainstorming session at the army's southern command headquarters in Pune attended by senior officers of the three services, including the army chief, General Deepak Kapoor.

Like I said, 4 LPD's even in the current scenario of the 91st Brigade of the Indian Army, whose numbers have been increased 3000 to 5000, this capacity is much more than needed.

 

[JBH22]

Can someone explain how can these LPD be used in the event of a conflict against Pakistan?
I know that these ships are useful for evacuation style ops like in Lebanon 2006 note the the French were very happy with the Mistral performance. TIA

 

[Adux]

Can someone explain how can these LPD be used in the event of a conflict against Pakistan?
I know that these ships are useful for evacuation style ops like in Lebanon 2006 note the the French were very happy with the Mistral performance. TIA

We would be vreating a beach head in between karachi and gwadar, landing hopefully 20,000 troops and support, opening the 2nd front

 

[bengalraider]

Can someone explain how can these LPD be used in the event of a conflict against Pakistan?
I know that these ships are useful for evacuation style ops like in Lebanon 2006 note the the French were very happy with the Mistral performance. TIA

More than any actual landing the psychological threat of a probable massive Indian landing force on the way shall make Pakistani military planners jittery and this shall lead to them spending on and planning for beachhead defense forces and coastal defenses, it shall keep the enemy guessing where the bulk of the horde shall show itself so to speak!

 

[Ray]

Hello Brigadier, Long time.

They would be LPD's or LHD's not LSD's. Establish Beach heads, Island Hoping and

IN is ordering 4, keeping track of its procurement policies expect another improved 4 too.

Navy which is capable of enforcing its will in South East Asia.

No.

Americans at any given point of time have 10 LPD, 8 LHD's. We are on our way to make atleast half that number. Why is such expeditionary capacity being built? This is not about being gung ho, I am not of the opinion that Indian Military Planners are a bunch of panzies and white flag waving idiots. There should be reason and strategic objective for this. It might not be easy for a lot of Indians to imagine our country being aggressive, but it is the same country that did Op Meghdoot.

Yes. Vietnam is the success story, Japan is ongoing and South Korea: moves are being made.


http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090130/jsp/frontpage/story_10460609.jsp


Like I said, 4 LPD's even in the current scenario of the 91st Brigade of the Indian Army, whose numbers have been increased 3000 to 5000, this capacity is much more than needed.

I was thinking of Landing Ship Dock (LSD).

Yes, these are required for BeachHs.
But BeachHs where? And are the numbers intended adequate?
Or is it cosmetic inventory building?

The Indian military planners are not pansies or nancy boys. You don't have to search very far as to who are the real nancy boys and pansies. The first stumbling block is what is India's National Strategy? Even the Hon'ble PM would not know! We are Gandhian!!!

Vietnam, Korea and Japan are mirages! Overtures are made and then it is allowed to die a natural death!

As far as having Marines, it was conceived even when I was a cadet in NDA (1963). My instructor Lt {IN} Dubash went for Marine trg and came back with khakis on! And then after some times he was back in his whites!

It is foolish to have Gorkhas as Marines. They are dead scared of water! They are worried even then they undertake water obstacle crossing!



American model is different. They have LCS (Littoral Combat Ships), Landing Helicopter Assault (LHA), Landing Helicopter Dock (LHD), Landing Platform Helicopter (LPH), etc.

To capture a beachH against opposition, just landing troops and tanks alone will not do. It will require softening by the Air force and landing troops by helicopters to threaten the rear of the those defending the Beach as also to cut off reinforcement.

 

[Adux]

BR,

If it is the Mistral Class, Then on a single short hall trip the 4 ships will be able, which is what Pakistan is; We are looking at 3000-3600 Troops, 160 Tanks(52 tanks and 180 Fighting vehicles), That is a formidable fighting force, the way IN do their procurements, that is in batches of 3, I expect 8 or 12 LPH/LHA. We can expect IN to bring up the forces to division level. Whether a new corps like US Marine Corps would be raised, or they be deputed to the Navy or the current arrangement will continue, we dont know. As soon as the first batch is commissioned, we will have a division level force, We are looking at Corps level by all the ships are commissioned (1st and 2nd) 40,000 Troops by 2025.

 

[Adux]

I was thinking of Landing Ship Dock (LSD).

Yes, these are required for BeachHs.
But BeachHs where? And are the numbers intended adequate?
Or is it cosmetic inventory building?

You tell me, Raising already available Amphibious Force from 3000 to 5000, Buying an old LPD to learn the ropes and create doctrine, Exercises with other countries mainly aimed to train and learn Amphibious Operations, Buying capital ships at enormous cost; does that all look cosmetic to you?

The Indian military planners are not pansies or nancy boys. You don't have to search very far as to who are the real nancy boys and pansies. The first stumbling block is what is India's National Strategy? Even the Hon'ble PM would not know! We are Gandhian!!!

India always lacked a Comprehensive aggressive national strategy, but is the lack of it going to make us debunk every postive step made organizations. We all know there is no cohesion between MoD, MoS and MEA

Vietnam, Korea and Japan are mirages! Overtures are made and then it is allowed to die a natural death!

Then everything India does is a mirage, why have a defense website, why even have the army, it is all a mirage.

As far as having Marines, it was conceived even when I was a cadet in NDA (1963). My instructor Lt {IN} Dubash went for Marine trg and came back with khakis on! And then after some times he was back in his whites!

This is not 1963, the threat scenario is not the same nor is India of today

American model is different. They have LCS (Littoral Combat Ships), Landing Helicopter Assault (LHA), Landing Helicopter Dock (LHD), Landing Platform Helicopter (LPH), etc.

To capture a beachH against opposition, just landing troops and tanks alone will not do. It will require softening by the Air force and landing troops by helicopters to threaten the rear of the those defending the Beach as also to cut off reinforcement

We have only seen two pieces of the puzzle, the Amphibious Force and their Transport ships, We have yet to see command structure, support ships, air wing etc etc. You are retired and I am a civvie, both of us arent in the military; we will wait and see.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

TROPEX 2011 - Indian Navy to Exercise Amphibious Capabilities in Tri-Service Wargames

Indian Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma confirmed that the Navy would include amphibious elements to complement other Navy, Army and Air Force elements in the annual joint exercise Tropex-2011.

"TROPEX in terms of involved expenses and platforms is the largest exercise we have. This time we have huge amphibious elements including the participation from Army and the Air Force"​

-- Admiral Nirmal Verma

Indian Navy inducted its first amphibious warship INS Jalashwa from US in 2007. The Indian Navy has an Amphibious transport dock of the Austin class, re-christened as INS Jalashwa in service. Besides, it also maintains a fleet of tank landing ships and other smaller vessels.

It currently has no dedicated helicopter carrier in its possession which is a shortcoming as other navies in the world with aspiring blue water navy capabilities have them, the gap formed is hence filled by indian navy by operating the helicopters from its aircraft carrier to carry out amphibious operations along with anti submarine warfare roles.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=14424

 

[karna]

Friends, don't you think these platforms, being bulky and comparatively slow will be easy targets for our adversaries. What are the self defense means available in these ships? Can somebody enlighten me?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Friends, don't you think these platforms, being bulky and comparatively slow will be easy targets for our adversaries. What are the self defense means available in these ships? Can somebody enlighten me?

These Ship are protected by a small fleet of corvettes and Destroyer when their are high tensions..

Besides they are armed with CIWS and 50cal MG mounted on different places, Different Origins have different specifications..

 

[Ray]

You tell me, Raising already available Amphibious Force from 3000 to 5000, Buying an old LPD to learn the ropes and create doctrine, Exercises with other countries mainly aimed to train and learn Amphibious Operations, Buying capital ships at enormous cost; does that all look cosmetic to you?

First of all, one has to know what the National Strategic Vision is since from that flows the Progressive Acquisition Plan and then fit in the building blocks to achieve the objective over the years.

Next, one has to note that what Indian Budget can spare and allocates for Defence and what finally trickles down to the Navy.

Based on that, the Acquisition Plan to meet visualised tactical and strategic aims are made to be built up progressively along the years.

There is Perspective Planning in place.

What would be cosmetic is buying capital ships without a terminal aim, which to the best of my knowledge, is not what is being done. There is a terminal aim, but the coat is being cut as per the cloth. It may not be Saville Row, but neither is it the product of the local darzi.

Amphibious Force is not a product of numbers. It is the product of the aim, tailored to the restriction of the Defence Budget. The aim, given by the current financial allotment, cannot be of an expeditionary force. It is for protection of Island Territories and limited beach ops in case of war. The consequential spinoffs for projecting soft power to meet international emergency is a bonus. Therefore, if I may say, it is not the question of making the force expand from 3000 to 5000. It has to be tailored to the aim!

If the Budget only permits protecting our Island territories and limited beachH ops, then what should be the force?

Currently, it is a Brigade as has been visualised as adequate to meet the aim.

What is it supposed to do for an amph landing?

Be able:
1. To land against opposition.
2. Be able to seize the Beach by destroying the enemy in their emplacement.
3. Make a shallow beach
4. Be able to take on enemy counter attacks.
5. Expand the BeachH to give depth and land artillery to assist operations and further operations.
6. Be able to organise the beachH in a manner so as to permit additional troops to land by helicopters and then when an ALG is prepared, ensure the safe induction of airlifted troops.

Therefore, suffice it to say that it does not mean infantry and tanks alone. It means artillery, vehicles required for a Brigade, supplies in food, oils, fuel and ammunition (to include all arms, especially artillery and tank), ordnance supplies to include arms and kit for a Brigade for at least a week, workshop elements, stores and spares not only for vehicles, but also for tanks and artillery and also for helicopters.

One has to on this basis tailor make the naval crafts required for such a force.

The important aspect of an amph force transportation is numbers, tonnage, volume and shape, apart from the protection of the transit force.

India does not really require buying ships to learn the ropes of amph ops. They have a fair idea and practice it practically every year.

India always lacked a Comprehensive aggressive national strategy, but is the lack of it going to make us debunk every postive step made organizations. We all know there is no cohesion between MoD, MoS and MEA


Then everything India does is a mirage, why have a defense website, why even have the army, it is all a mirage.

What defence website? IDF

Or are you meaning the websites of the Army/ Navy/Air Force?

What have been the constructive indicators of the Look East Policy?

This is not 1963, the threat scenario is not the same nor is India of today

It is obvious.

Perspective planning is not on an yearly basis. It looks at 20 year blocks and tailors in flexibility essential to take into account any major changes in perception.

We have only seen two pieces of the puzzle, the Amphibious Force and their Transport ships, We have yet to see command structure, support ships, air wing etc etc. You are retired and I am a civvie, both of us arent in the military; we will wait and see.

I maybe retired, but that does not mean that one switches off. There are seminars, strategic papers. military professional magazines and books and one knows what is happening without wanting to operational issue or what is classified in the Secret realm. That is adequate.

The difference between a retired military person and the civilian is that one has experienced the workings and the modus operandi to include the mechanic and intricacies of War and CI and thus is in the know. A civilian can have immense theoretical knowledge, but would be hindered by a lack of practical knowledge.

It is like comparing a 'Been there, done that' tourist with a son of the soil of the place visited by the tourist!

Suffice it to say that the Command structure, with adequate flexibility, is in place for the theatre(s) where the amph maybe applied.

 

[Ray]

This is what it is in the US

An Amphibious Readiness Group (ARG) of the United States Navy consists of a Navy element—a group of ships known as an amphibious task force (ATF)—and a landing force (LF) of United States Marines (and occasionally United States Army troops), in total about 5,000 people. Together, these elements and supporting units are trained, organized, and equipped to perform amphibious operations. A typical U.S. Amphibious Readiness Group consists of:

* An amphibious assault ship (LHA or LHD): the primary landing ship, resembling a small aircraft carrier, designed to put troops on hostile shores. In a secondary role, using AV-8B Harrier II aircraft and anti-submarine helicopters, these ships perform sea control and limited power projection missions.

* An amphibious transport dock (LPD) Ship: a warship that embarks, transports, and lands elements of a landing force for a variety of expeditionary warfare missions.

* A dock landing ship (LSD): a warship supporting amphibious operations including landings via Landing Craft Air Cushion (LCAC), conventional landing craft and helicopters, onto hostile shores. In the first decade of the 21st century, three classes of LSDs were in service: the Harpers Ferry, the Whidbey Island, and the Anchorage classes.

* A Marine Expeditionary Unit: a force capable of conducting missions ranging from humanitarian assistance and disaster relief to major theater war.

* AV-8B Harrier IIs: ground-attack aircraft designed to attack and destroy surface targets.

* CH-53E Super Stallions or CH-53D Sea Stallions: heavy-lift helicopters designed to transport personnel, supplies and equipment in support of amphibious and shore operations. (CH-53Ds have not been attached to MEUs since 2005)

* CH-46D Sea Knights: medium-lift assault helicopters, primarily used to move cargo and troops. CH-46 helicopters are being replaced by MV-22B Osprey tiltrotor aircraft. The current USMC H-46E squadrons are designated as HMM, or Marine Medium Helicopter Squadrons. When joined by detachments of the various other squadrons, the HMM is designated as a HMM(REIN), Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron (Reinforced). As such, the various aircraft will don the tailcodes and markers of the HMM.

* AH-1W SuperCobras: attack helicopters providing fire support and fire support coordination to the landing force during amphibious assaults and subsequent operations ashore.

* UH-1Y Venom or UH-1N Twin Huey: Provides command and control during heliborne operations as well a light attack and assault capabilities.

The resulting forces may range from a single Amphibious Ready Group/Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable) [ARG/MEU (SOC)], to a larger organization capable of employing a Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB) or even a Marine Expeditionary Force (MEF).

Amphibious forces must be capable of performing missions ranging from humanitarian assistance and disaster relief to major theater war (MTW). Additionally, they can be configured and deployed to operate at various levels of conflict and in multiple theaters simultaneously. They can provide a presence that may preclude adventurous actions by a potential belligerent.

Because they are sea-based and because the decision to position and engage amphibious forces will always be easily reversible, amphibious forces greatly expand the repertoire of available response options. Among other national resources, they are particularly well placed to provide a demonstration of the United States's commitment and resolve to friends and allies as well as adversaries.

Normally two to three ARGs are forward deployed: one in the Mediterranean Sea/Persian Gulf–Indian Ocean area, and one or two in the western Pacific Ocean area. The other ships of the ARG are either working up to deploy, in transit, or in overhaul. One ARG/MEU, known as Task Force 76/Expeditionary Strike Group 7, is forward based in Sasebo and Okinawa, Japan.

In most cases, the ATF will be deployed under the protective umbrella of a carrier strike group (CSG), which provides cover for the ATF and combat support to operations ashore. Ships of the ATF are capable of embarking and supporting other forces when the mission requires, including the United States Army, Special Operations Forces (SOF), or other joint and combined forces.

TABLE 3.1 Representative Marine Air Ground Task Force Sizes (Current Force Structure, Not Tailored for Sea Basing)




MEU/ MEF (FWD)/ MEF

Personnel 2,800/ 18,800 / 54,600

Sq Ft Vehicle Stow 62,000/ 620,000/ 1,554,000

Cu Ft Cargo Stow 160,000/ 2,450,000/ 11,478,000

Total Vehicles 150/ 4,300/ 13,900

Tanks 4/ 58/ 62

Advanced amphibious assault vehicles 12/ 09/ 187

M198 howitzers 6/ 30/ 54

MV-22 tilt-rotor aircraft 12/ 36/ 96

CH-53 helicopters 4/ 8/ 36

UH-1N helicopters 3/ 6/ 18

AH-1W helicopters 6/ 18/ 54

NOTE: Partial listing of vehicles shown above; vehicle numbers are approximate. MEU, Marine expeditionary unit; MEF (FWD), Marine expeditionary force (forward); MEF, Marine expeditionary force.

 

[sandeepdg]

Got your panties in a twist much? Funny, all this cause you dont have capacity to grasp what India was going to do with 4 Large landing ships.

Oh, great ! You are discussing India's look east policy here, and you tell me I cannot grasp what India's gonna do with the LPDs. Well, neither do you. And, just because you don't agree with me, doesn't mean that you get down to obscenities to make your point.

 

[Adux]

First of all, one has to know what the National Strategic Vision is since from that flows the Progressive Acquisition Plan and then fit in the building blocks to achieve the objective over the years.


Next, one has to note that what Indian Budget can spare and allocates for Defence and what finally trickles down to the Navy.

Since this is already cleared by the DAC. There is no question about Budget not being alocated.

Based on that, the Acquisition Plan to meet visualised tactical and strategic aims are made to be built up progressively along the years.

There is Perspective Planning in place.

This is a big and serious acquisition, No Navy worth its salt is going to do such a process without it being compatible with tactical and strategic aims.

Amphibious Force is not a product of numbers. It is the product of the aim, tailored to the restriction of the Defence Budget. The aim, given by the current financial allotment, cannot be of an expeditionary force. It is for protection of Island Territories and limited beach ops in case of war. The consequential spinoffs for projecting soft power to meet international emergency is a bonus. Therefore, if I may say, it is not the question of making the force expand from 3000 to 5000. It has to be tailored to the aim!

An Amphbious Force is relatively new for the Indian Navy and Army. I expect this force to grow expoentinally in the coming decade. I have already posted news article which states Indian Navy intends to model after the US Marines.

If the Budget only permits protecting our Island territories and limited beachH ops, then what should be the force?

You think budget is the only reason? I dont think so. Time for Training, Capability, Time taken for Capital acquisition, Creation of Command, Money being spend for other equally or more important acquisition.

Currently, it is a Brigade as has been visualised as adequate to meet the aim.


The important aspect of an amph force transportation is numbers, tonnage, volume and shape, apart from the protection of the transit force

.

Which is why the current capacity is developed, is more than that is required for a Brigade.

India does not really require buying ships to learn the ropes of amph ops. They have a fair idea and practice it practically every year.

They do. Read why the INS Jalshwa was bought in the first place.

What have been the constructive indicators of the Look East Policy?

Vietnam, Vietnam and Vietnam. Read also about IONS. Look East is at its every nascent stage.

Suffice it to say that the Command structure, with adequate flexibility, is in place for the theatre(s) where the amph maybe applied

No, The Indian Navy themselves has agreed that they bought INS Jalshwa for understanding Amphibious operations and doctrine creation.