Indian naval aerial arm will stretch Pakistani air force

[Adux]

It will be tough for Indian Navy to justify 3 different types of fighter, with neither giving any marked imporvement over the other. I would hope Indian Navy after 3-4 Squadrons of MiG 29Ks and similar number of NLCA's, would be looking into F-35C's, and then later replacing MiG29K's and NLCA's with Indian 5th or 6th Gen fighters

 

[ace009]

Here's my two cents ...

IN have realized that Mig-29Ks are fine for STOBAR carriers - which means Gorshky and IAC-1 will have Mig-29Ks. N-LCA is still iffy, but IN would like to get some as it would give them more operational freedom and an easy source for resupply and maintenance. Anyway they know that N-LCA would only be available for IAC-1 and that too in small numbers (maybe one squadron) - and it will be STOBAR for now.

For CATOBAR carriers (if the rumor are true, then) IAC-2 or IAC-3 they would like to have a proven CATOBAR-ready fighter - by the timeline of 2018 - which can be M-Rafale only, since F-35Cs are nowhere ready to deliver to India by then. In which case, IAC-2 and/or IAC-3 will get m-Rafale for sure.

By the time IAC-4 or IAC-5 come into play, the Mig-29Ks (and any N-LCA, STOBAR) will be considered obsolete in technology, and India will have a 5th gen naval fighter, either it's own N-AMCA or the F-35C.

So at any point, IN will have at least 2 fighters in it's inventory - Mig-29K and N-LCA mk1 and later maybe even 3, Mig-29K, N-LCA mk1 and m-Rafale and furhter on, N-LCA mk2, M-Rafale and F-35C/ N-AMCA. Question is, are they ready for that many varieties?

By the way, there is NO plan of developing ANY naval variant of the PAK-FA, now or in the future.

 

[agentperry]

200 aircrafts for indian navy in next 10 years will make it a beast of ocean. pakistani air force poised to get 400-450 aircrafts in this due time will either end up buying sam( in hundreds) to counter insas or field some of its fleet towards ocean. this will make their defence against india in punjab and sindh areas diluted and insignificant.
either way they gonna incur heavy price.
but there is a possibility that party may become pooper. if there is any delay like the mmrca contract then i dont think indian navy wil have anything good to flaunt and scare. empty ac will be more a shame than pride.

 

[p2prada]

@ace

IN is not planning to buy any N-LCA Mk1s, only N-LCA Mk2s.

 

[charlyondfi]

Wow, That is a Naval strategist alright. People need to STFU, if they dont have a clue. I love the emphasis on 'quality', so mango desi

Exactly right I will say Adux
While thinking about all the mighty and massy battle fleet is always amusing, "A real general must comprehend & able to do logistics" - Soviet Military Academy doctrine

How many auxiliary ships (among) required to support all those 160+ IN fleet?
How much money will be required for those 160+ ships? What about maintenance fee?
How much GDP growth & defence budget required for this huge expansion
What ship build industry will be required? how they can be sponsored? Nowadays NO country's ship industry -- even USA -- can live on only Navy orders
And a robust air-craft industry? how much % of PAK/FA will be indigenous? what's the time schedule. There is NO dominating navy counting on more than half its equipment importing

Actually, a deeper question is: this navy is to be built for what? only "defeat another foe '1000 km away'"? how about next & ultimate goal, full dominance of IOR? "NO body can wash his/her hands without IN nod..."?

 

[ace009]

Exactly right I will say Adux
While thinking about all the mighty and massy battle fleet is always amusing, "A real general must comprehend & able to do logistics" - Soviet Military Academy doctrine

How many auxiliary ships (among) required to support all those 160+ IN fleet?
How much money will be required for those 160+ ships? What about maintenance fee?
How much GDP growth & defence budget required for this huge expansion
What ship build industry will be required? how they can be sponsored? Nowadays NO country's ship industry -- even USA -- can live on only Navy orders
And a robust air-craft industry? how much % of PAK/FA will be indigenous? what's the time schedule. There is NO dominating navy counting on more than half its equipment importing

Actually, a deeper question is: this navy is to be built for what? only "defeat another foe '1000 km away'"? how about next & ultimate goal, full dominance of IOR? "NO body can wash his/her hands without IN nod..."?

I think it will be another 20 years or so before India can have any of these are true ...

As for "full dominance of IOR" - I am not sure IN expects to get there before 2025 before at all.

 

[bengalraider]

The way i see it is we can utilize offensive naval air power as major component of our naval strategy in the IOR only and only if we adapt and follow the techniques of the Aviatsiya Voenno-Morskogo Flota. the Soviets countered the superiority of american carrier borne aviation by deploying the modern worlds largest fleet of anti-shipping strike aircraft. We need to follow a similar policy of sea denial against the PLAN by building up a visible offensive NAVAL aviation capacity using our natural geography to our advantage.
we can use naval stations such as Arakkonam and Port Blair to be bases not only for TU-142's and other RECON assets but also as bases for long range flankers carrying BRAHMOS and other naval anti-shipping missiles supported by AWACS and Tankers from other southern airbases to establish and offensive air patrol over any hostile vessels.
However in order to do any of this we need a massive infusion of men and material and most importantly i believe we need dedicated naval Bombers i've said so earlier and i believe we should try can get us some TU-22M3's or at the very least some SU-34's to be used in this dedicated role.

 

[sandeepdg]

By the way, there is NO plan of developing ANY naval variant of the PAK-FA, now or in the future.

I have read this statement by many posters here. There's no confirmation if a naval variant of PAK-FA will ever be developed in the future from any official sources. Just assuming and wishing for it happen is utter stupidity.

There was a statement by an ex Navy Chief, I think Sureesh Mehta, that Indian navy will have a fleet of 300 aircraft in the next 10-15 years or so. But obviously, this won't be all fighters. It would include all aircraft, like AWACS, helicopters, surveillance etc.

Neither its known whether the second or third IAC will be employ CATOBAR or STOBAR. So unless that is officially specified, all these talk would simply remain assumptions. If they are to be CATOBAR equipped, then Mig-29 K are of no use and neither are the N-LCAs. So obviously we would need a new aircraft, and I would wish it to be the Rafale. Neither has the Navy stated whether or not they have plans to acquire a fifth generation fighter as yet. If they do, then obviously the F-35 seems to be the only contender.

 

[Zebra]

Naval variant of Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA

by Cavin Dsouza on December 11, 2010

Navalized Sukhoi T-50 PAK FAs to be deployed on the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov. The Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA will be deployed on Admiral Kuzetsov and future Russian Aircraft carriers.

The Fleet Admiral of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov, currently the only aircraft carrier serving as the flagship of the Russian Navy, will be upgraded, the media reported, quoting Navy sources. The aircraft carrier, due to enter in 2012, will be re-launched in 2017.

The Admiral Kuznetsov entered service with the Russian Navy in 1991 and was used for the operation of deck aircraft, the development of new tactics, including those for dealing with carriers of theoretical enemies.

In the late 1990s and the early 2000s, it was repeatedly proposed that the Admiral Kuznetsov, which remained inactive for long time periods, be decommissioned and sold for scrap.

Naval variant of Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA | Defence Aviation

*****
Just post N- PAK FA for IN Navy as per this old news only .

Is there any new updates , which I am not aware of .

 

[Adux]

Let us talk with the numbers we have now.

We have 3 Carriers as of now confirmed

Vikramaditya - 45,000 tons - 24 aircraft's
IAC- 1 - 40,000 tons - 24 aircraft's
IAC-2 -if the same as IAC-1, then 24, if as speculated 60,000 tons, then we are looking at 48 aircrafts

We also know that all of them are going to STOBAR carriers. Therefore it really doesnt matter what we have MiG's or Rafale's.

We know IN air arm is looking at 200 aircrafts, off which 48 is MiG- 29K's and hopefully another 48-52 would be NLCA. So, what are the next 100 aircraft or aircraft's going to be.

Where are they going to be placed, shore or carriers? IAC-3 and IAC-4, Are our new carriers goint to be STOBAR? If they are going to be shore based, shouldnt we need a higher internal fuel capacity fighters?

We know the planned date to achieve 200 aircrafts is going to 2022.

Now how this 200 aircraft would be inducted, hinges on several factors such as funding, capability to absorb.

Question, what is the rate at which Indian Navy can churn out new pilots, allocate funding and create infrastructure?

I dont think under the current circumstances, IN can do more than a squadron per year, that would mean HAL and MIG has to churn out minimum of 18 aircraft's per year. I dont expect both of them to do that, Not more than 10/ year on both sides. And I dont expect HAL to bring the NLCA online anytime before 2014. So the realistic induction of the 100 unknown aircrafts should start somewhere around 2016-17. Let's start with that.

Why should we look at Rafale in 2016-17, when we might have JSF available?

 

[Dovah]

Why should we look at Rafale in 2016-17, when we might have JSF available?

JSF won't be available for delivery by 2017..its already got loads of pending orders.

 

[Adux]

JSF won't be available for delivery by 2017..its already got loads of pending orders.

Acceptable! Not if we are able to do what Eurofighter did for Saudi Arabia though. RAF gave off their lot to RSAF.
Anyways, then the question arises what are the other fighters available which will give us a significant capability jump over our current fighters of MiG's and NLCA's? I dont think it should be from the 4th generation category, if it has to be then, it should be a heavier 4th gen fighter, that would give us significant leap in range, payload and real estate to plug in more electronics.

 

[sandeepdg]

Let us talk with the numbers we have now.

We have 3 Carriers as of now confirmed

Vikramaditya - 45,000 tons - 24 aircraft's
IAC- 1 - 40,000 tons - 24 aircraft's
IAC-2 -if the same as IAC-1, then 24, if as speculated 60,000 tons, then we are looking at 48 aircrafts

We also know that all of them are going to STOBAR carriers. Therefore it really doesnt matter what we have MiG's or Rafale's.

We know IN air arm is looking at 200 aircrafts, off which 48 is MiG- 29K's and hopefully another 48-52 would be NLCA. So, what are the next 100 aircraft or aircraft's going to be.

Where are they going to be placed, shore or carriers? IAC-3 and IAC-4, Are our new carriers goint to be STOBAR? If they are going to be shore based, shouldnt we need a higher internal fuel capacity fighters?

We know the planned date to achieve 200 aircrafts is going to 2022.

Now how this 200 aircraft would be inducted, hinges on several factors such as funding, capability to absorb.

Question, what is the rate at which Indian Navy can churn out new pilots, allocate funding and create infrastructure?

I dont think under the current circumstances, IN can do more than a squadron per year, that would mean HAL and MIG has to churn out minimum of 18 aircraft's per year. I dont expect both of them to do that, Not more than 10/ year on both sides. And I dont expect HAL to bring the NLCA online anytime before 2014. So the realistic induction of the 100 unknown aircrafts should start somewhere around 2016-17. Let's start with that.

Why should we look at Rafale in 2016-17, when we might have JSF available?

Well, this link suggests that IN is looking at CATOBAR capabilities for IAC-2 :
Indian Aircraft Carrier (IAC) Project 71 - a knol by Vijainder K Thakur

Don't know the official word on this though.

If CATOBAR carriers are going to be a reality from IAC-2, then I think its best for IN to go with Rafale-M. It will be easily available from 2016-17 onwards, I guess.

About whether the IN will buy a fifth gen fighter or not is all speculation, as long as there is no official statement referring to it. But if they really want to, then JSF will be the best choice, since I don't think the naval PAK-FA, if at all it is being considered will be available anytime before 2020 at least. But, then again JSF delivery schedule is pretty packed for delivery to the partner countries, and I don't think they can make much leeway for us by 2020 too.

Rest depends, how much clout India can garner if it really wants the JSF, and gets it before one of the partner countries does. But that scenario is quite remote.

 

[ace009]

Let us talk with the numbers we have now.

We have 3 Carriers as of now confirmed

Vikramaditya - 45,000 tons - 24 aircraft's
IAC- 1 - 40,000 tons - 24 aircraft's
IAC-2 -if the same as IAC-1, then 24, if as speculated 60,000 tons, then we are looking at 48 aircrafts

We also know that all of them are going to STOBAR carriers. Therefore it really doesnt matter what we have MiG's or Rafale's.

We know IN air arm is looking at 200 aircrafts, off which 48 is MiG- 29K's and hopefully another 48-52 would be NLCA. So, what are the next 100 aircraft or aircraft's going to be.

Where are they going to be placed, shore or carriers? IAC-3 and IAC-4, Are our new carriers goint to be STOBAR? If they are going to be shore based, shouldnt we need a higher internal fuel capacity fighters?

We know the planned date to achieve 200 aircrafts is going to 2022.

Now how this 200 aircraft would be inducted, hinges on several factors such as funding, capability to absorb.

Question, what is the rate at which Indian Navy can churn out new pilots, allocate funding and create infrastructure?

I dont think under the current circumstances, IN can do more than a squadron per year, that would mean HAL and MIG has to churn out minimum of 18 aircraft's per year. I dont expect both of them to do that, Not more than 10/ year on both sides. And I dont expect HAL to bring the NLCA online anytime before 2014. So the realistic induction of the 100 unknown aircrafts should start somewhere around 2016-17. Let's start with that.

Why should we look at Rafale in 2016-17, when we might have JSF available?

Here is the report from Vijaider Thakur -
Indian Aircraft Carrier (IAC) Project 71 - a knol by Vijainder K Thakur

He specifically mentions that IN is looking to redesign the IAC-2 and it would not be a copy of the existing design (read IAC-1).
The idea is to bring in a CATOBAR capability and enhance the capabilities of the naval air-arm with a catapault launched aircraft - should be M-Rafale if the Rafale wins the MMRCA contest (logistical advantage) and would be F/A-18 SH if the EF Typhoon wins the MMRCA contest (no logistical advantage since there is no existing naval typhoon, but the Superhornet is the best/ most well proven naval fighter available out there).

IAC-2 Redesign
The IAC-2 could undergo some design changes, Naval Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma indicated while speaking to the press ahead Navy Day on December 4, 2009.

"We are re-looking at the design. It won't be a copy of what we have today."

He said a concept study by the Directorate of Naval Design is currently underway 'for more capable carrier-borne aircraft' for the IAC-2.

The Navy is leaning towards a 50,000 tons carrier capable of launching heavier aircraft using a steam catapult, rather than the ski-jump on the Gorshkov / Vikramaditya.

The Navy has earlier indicated it prefers the Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (Emals) on its new aircraft carriers.

As mentioned above, the Navy is already looking at aircraft that could replace the MiG-29K / LCA Naval Variant.

His report also mentions that IN is looking to replace the Mig-29K and N-LCA in the future - which means that they will NOT look for STOBAR fighters anymore.

Here is some more of his "claims" ...

Indian Navy is inclined to fit the under development Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (Emals) on its new aircraft carriers, instead of ski jumps.
Emals is currently being developed by General Atomics for future US aircraft carriers. The Navy has projected a requirement of at least five carriers to effectively patrol the country's 7,500 km. (4,660 mi.) coastline.

I am not sure if the US government would like to sell the EMALS technology to India at all. Maybe IN can get it if they buy into the JSF program ... (I doubt it).

 

[Adux]

I stand corrected on STOBAR for IAC-2, but that still doesnt change the numbers of aircraft carried..
But it is easier to make MiG-29K and NLCA to be catobar capable, than have a completely different type. The CATOBAR launched Rafale and MiG-29K wont make much of a difference, though Rafale is clearly superior but not by much. It just doesnt make economical sense

When they say, they want to replace MiG 29K and NLCA in the future, what are they going to do with the carriers? What are they going to do with aircraft with significant lifespan. The three carriers and aircraft logically should serve us till 2035-40

 

[ace009]

Actually Adux, a CATOBAR capable aircraft can still be used from a STOBAR platform (with less load), but a STOBAR aircarft cannot operate from a CATOBAR platform that easily. A STOBAR aircraft has to undergo significant structural changes to withstand a catapault launch, the reverse is not true.
IMHO, what IN means is that the combination of Gorshky and IAC-1 will initially carry Mig-29K/ N-LCA. The IAC-2 will have N-MMRCA (M-Rafale or F/A-18 SH). In case of shortfalls in STOBAR fighters, the existing line of CATOBAR fighters will be modified to fly from those carriers.

Also, by 2020, when IAC-2 is operational, IN may ask HAL to develop a CATOBAR version of the N-LCA if he need arises.

 

[sandeepdg]

^^ So you posted the same link as mine, eh

 

[sandeepdg]

I think keeping Rafale and JSF assumptions aside, the best IN thing IN can do is to ask HAL to make the N-LCA, a CATOBAR capable fighter. At least, if no other fighter is available, we can arm the carriers with the N-LCA till newer aircraft are inducted.

 

[ace009]

I would rather see a N-LCA STOBAR was ready ...

 

[nrj]

I would rather see a N-LCA STOBAR was ready ...

and a CATOBAR carrier with catapults