Indian Jaguar Upgrade

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Sridhar, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. sathya

    sathya Regular Member

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    RFP to Honeywell for Jaguar re-engine this month

    The MoD is expected to send out an RFP to Honeywell this month for the F125 IN turbofan engine for the IAF’s Jaguar fleet, IAF Chief N.A.K. Browne has revealed. The F125 IN engine emerged last year as the only suitable powerplant to re-engine the Jaguar and replace its Rolls-Royce Adour Mk811 turbofans.

    In February last year, Rolls-Royce pulled out of a two-way competition after the IAF insisted that the competition was to replace the Jaguar’s engines and not merely upgrade them. Rolls-Royce had offered (and indeed, continues to offer) a comprehensive ‘low-risk optimised’ upgrade involving the Adour Mk821 engine. Sources indicate that the Honeywell engine had an edge from the start, considering it was lighter and had proven to require less modifications for integration. Last year, it had been conjectured that the competition would be refloated. However, after a study found that no engines in the global market would suit the Jaguar other than the two that competed, the IAF recommended that it go with the Honeywell offering, as a direct purchase.

    The F125 after-burning version powers the Taiwan Indigenous Defense Fighter and the non-afterburning version, the F124, powers the Czech fighter and the M346. “As an ‘off-the-shelf’ engine solution, the F125IN is designed to drop-fit into existing Jaguar airframes, resulting in an enhanced aircraft with superior mission capabilities, improved pilot safety, and outstanding reliability, with a projected life-cycle savings of over Rs. 7,000 crore ($1.5 billion). F125IN will transform the IAF Jaguar and power India into the future,” says Honeywell.
     
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  2. sathya

    sathya Regular Member

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    Re: RFP to Honeywell for Jaguar re-engine this month

    The perfect balance of innovation, technology and performance for the IAF Jaguar.

    Enhanced mission capabilities:
    23% shorter high – hot takeoffs
    17-40% higher thrust
    Greater mission range
    Faster climbs to 20,000 feet without afterburner
    36% extended fuel range
    Increased combat survivability – auto re-start after flame out

    Technical superiority with increased performance:
    Drop-fit replacement
    555 pounds lighter than current aircraft configuration
    4,400 pounds greater high – hot takeoff payload
    Decreased pilot workload, increased safety
    Increased pilot safety – F124 – F125 has 500,000 hours without a loss of a single aircraft due to engine failure
    Decreased pilot workload – Engine FADEC, EMS

    Improved reliability and reduced life-cycle costs:
    Greater time between maintenance
    2,000 hours minimum time between overhaul
    Lower cost maintenance
    Reduced fuel consumption
    Rupees 7,000 Crores (US$1.5 billion) in reduced life-cycle costs
     
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  3. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    India plans to impart power punch to Jaguar fighters

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...h-to-Jaguar-fighters/articleshow/16843638.cms

    NEW DELHI: India is finally giving its Jaguar "strike" fighters some much-needed new teeth with advanced missiles, engines and avionics. Apart from having a maritime strike role as well, the Jaguars have long been identified by IAF as the jets capable of delivering nuclear weapons if required.

    The IAF on Monday issued a RFP (request for proposal) to M/s Honeywell Aerospace, the US-based manufacturer of aircraft engines and avionics, to "completely re-engine" 125 Jaguars and provide 270 F-125IN turbofan engines.

    Concurrently, IAF is all set for the first test-flight of a Jagaur fighter upgraded to "Darin-III" standards by defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), with new-generation avionics including a glass cockpit and autopilot, next month.

    Grappling with only 34 fighter squadrons when at least 44 are needed to be "comfortable" against Pakistan and China, IAF has been progressively going in for upgrade of its existing fighters as well as planning new inductions to retain its aerial combat ratio while phasing out the old MiG variants.

    IAF already has upgrade projects underway for 51 Mirage-2000s for Rs 17,547 crore and 63 MiG-29s for $964 million, even as it inducts 272 Sukhoi-30MKIs at a cost upwards of $12 billion. Then, it plans to induct 126 French Rafale fighters in the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project.

    For futuristic requirements, IAF is looking at inducting over 200 stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft from 2022 onwards, after joint development and production with Russia, at an overall cost that will eventually touch $35 billion.

    Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne on Tuesday told top IAF commanders that the force was "going through a very busy and challenging" period. "Our focus now, and at all times, must be on three priority areas - operational capability, operational infrastructure and operational security, especially in view of the new inductions in our inventory."

    As for the Jaguar project, the plan is to finish the "design and development" phase with Honeywell on the initial two fighters by 2015-16. The "complete re-engine" phase of the remaining 123 fighters will be completed by 2023-24 by HAL under transfer of technology from the US firm.

    IAF had inducted 40 Jaguars from UK from 1979 onwards, which was later followed by indigenous licensed production by HAL. But with progressive upgrades of avionics and weapon systems, the overweight fighters have been suffering from their "under-powered" Adour-811 engines manufactured by Rolls-Royce. Several Jaguar crashes have also occurred due to engine problems.

    "There is a serious low thrust engine issue. Earlier, Rolls-Royce was also in the race to supply more powerful engines for the Jaguars but the company withdrew its bid last year. So, IAF got the clearance from the Defence Acquisitions Council to move the project on a single vendor (Honeywell) basis," said a source.
     
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  4. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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  5. Agnostic_Indian

    Agnostic_Indian Regular Member

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    imo its a waste of money and time to invest hugely on this old platform, the upgrade will take 5-10 years to complete the final batch.


    instead of that India should only upgrade the latest batch of jaguar only(leave the 80 plus numbers which is very old, procured on 1981) and invest the remaining money in lca, rafale, or mki.they will have better capability, value for money, service life than this oldies.
     
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  6. Agnostic_Indian

    Agnostic_Indian Regular Member

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    What about rafale if mki can't match them in low level flight, rafale is know for its ground mapping radar and low level approach to evade radars, its a perfect multi role platform, today multi role standard should exceed 1980's specialised standards in each role.
     
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  7. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Brilliance Senior Member

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    The most important question regarding this upgrade providing 20 percent extra power is what will be the end TWR.

    It's present TWR is 0.61 with 23 percent power improvement it wiil be about 0.71 compare it to 1.07 for LCA

    So with this TWR can it out run a 1990s simple shoulder fired SAMs?
    Never.

    Because it's airframe is made as a trainer in post world war -II times.With cruise missiles and brahmos, pinaka and PRAHAR missiles it's mission of close battle field support is taken over by other systems.

    Say it flies over enemy tank formation , can it fly away from the sams fired on it with 1970s airframe and 0.71 TWr?

    Whatever the improvement in performance, will it worth it?

    Setting up another production line for LCA mk-I to increase the out put to 16 fighters to fill the void left by jags,mig-23,mig-21 bisons will be a better option.

    because the LCA Mk-I can recieve engine upgrades from the k-10 program and twice effective even with the present engines than mig-23s and mig-21s and jags with 3.5 ton weapon load.With conformal fuel tanks it can extend it's range while getting another extra hard point.

    The f-16s were inducted into USAF at a faster pace just 3 years after it's maiden flight. Even after 11 years testing LCA to death and producing 8 fighters an year is not an option.

    faster production will improve it's export chances as it will have the K-10 engine free of american sanctions for export.Thereby we can recoup the money invested in the second production line faster.

    And mercifully it can save the life of the pilot which is the most important criterian in warfare with some decent air to air performance to defend itself while bombing.whatever may be the pilot shill and sterling low level performance it will be identified by the ERIEE EYE saab awacs and long range BVRs will be fired at it from higher altitude. with a twr of 0.71 and 1970s vintage airframe how will the escorts save it from this volley of BVrs?
    This fact is known to PAF, so they will always target the JAGs with their long rage BVrs, because if they can take out the JAgs the deep penetration mission is over. The escorts are all a2 air only.

    What is the point of providing escorts to jags and mig-23a and sending them into deep penetration role into pakistan, when they are purchasing SAAb ericsson AEW ew awcs aircraft along with F-16s, leave aside the sam threat.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2012
  8. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Inducting a new platform takes anywhere between 5 to 10 years before all operational, training and maintenance procedures are written in stone.

    So, if you say we will get our first Rafale in 2015, we will be sure of it performing well only in the 2020-25 period. Until then we need something that is proven to handle DPS missions.

    It is no different for PAKFA, LCA, MKI etc. Until the 5 to 10 years it takes to be sure the aircraft performs well, the aircraft it is supposed to replace will always be the better aircraft.

    One reason why Mirage-2000 is our only Nuclear delivery aircraft even though we have the MKI. It's been 10 years since the MKI was inducted, so it is possible it will be the next contender for nuke delivery.

    Similarly aircraft like LCA and PAKFA will be called proven aircraft only after 2025 and closer to 2030 because of their ~2020 induction date.

    You don't simply buy a new aircraft and say it will definitely perform better than it's replacement. It is impossible to say that.

    Normally it requires 100000 flight hours in a large air force for maintenance procedures and life cycle costs to be quantified.

    If you give a commander the choice between an old F-15 and a brand new F-22 for a very, very important mission. He will always chose the F-15 because no matter what the manufacturers say, he knows that the F-15 can do the job and he can be assured of it. Comparatively the F-22 pilot may suffocate in the cockpit en route to the mission due to faulty G suits. That's what it means by proven.
     
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  9. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Brilliance Senior Member

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    The question is will JAGUAR go on a deep penetration mission inside pakistan with enhanced 20 percent power and come back from an environment of erriee eyw saab awacs with modernised f-16 and jf-17 with chinese bvrs .No amount of fighter escorts can save it if it flies with a twr of 0.71 and 1970s trainer airframe,however proven it may be.

    When jaguar reigned supreme in olden days awacs was only with the US and Ussr, now india ,china ,and ak will have about 30 or more awcas between them with in 10 years time.

    So low level tree top level, nap of the earth flying wont hide it from AWACS.

    And brahmos,prahar,pinaka,prithvi missile systems will complete most of the job of jags, and it has next to nil air to air abilities. These kind of planes are not built nowadays.
    The US uses A-10 when complete air superiority is established, and it has even some armour to withstand to hits.It is a very tough plane.Not so with jaguar.
     
  10. Agnostic_Indian

    Agnostic_Indian Regular Member

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    lets assume rafale inducted by 2015 and takes 5 years (2020) to settle down pretty good. so we need gajuars till 2020-2030max, remember 80 of them already reached 30 years service out of standard life span which should be around 40 years. so lets upgrade the relatively new jaguars which is 45+ numbers, with in 3 years and keep them till 2030, rest of them should be gradually retired by -2020-2025.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2012
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  11. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Jags will start retiring only once AMCA is ready. So, that's 2025 "onwards." 120+ aircraft won't disappear in a day, they will be replaced over at least 5 years. Rafales won't replace Jags because we won't have the kind of funds to replace Mig-27s and Jags at once while simultaneously inducting PAKFA and more advanced UCAVs.

    You can say the oldest Jags will be replaced starting from 2025 onwards and will be completely phased out by 2030, along with Mig-29 and finally Mirage-2000. Depending on the situation during the time, IAF may decide to quickly phase out the Jaguars before their time's up, like how the Mig-27s are being phased out by 2017 instead of 2020-25.

    Btw, Rafales won't settle down as quickly as 2020. The fleet will be too small and too young with inexperienced pilots. You can say there will be 4 squadrons by 2020 and only the first two will be fully operational with reasonably experienced pilots by the time.

    Let's say you induct a Rafale squadron in 2015. A few select pilots will start flying at least 200 hours a year. So, by the time they achieve 500 hours, it will be only 2 or 3 years. These pilots need to quickly notch up flight hours in order to build up combat tactics relevant to the aircraft. The French won't teach you Rafale related combat, you need to learn it yourself and then train younger pilots to do the same with lesser hours or more constrained flight hours. By the time an aircraft is proven, you can say there needs to be a decent number of pilots in the force with 2000 hours and more on the platform. That's around 10 years on an aircraft like Rafale, something like 7 years on a heavy aircraft like MKI or anywhere around 15 years on an aircraft like LCA.

    Considering Jags are light aircraft, the pilots would have taken a lot of time to build up experience on the bird. IAF won't be willing to let it go so quickly simply because a new bird showed up at the door step. There is a reason why they use the term "the man behind the machine." It is a very relevant term.
     
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  12. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    P2p, you have made a very valid and frightening point, if one looks at the timeline as mentioned by you and the delays in acquisition/induction of new aircraft.
     
  13. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    This is a universal problem and has been so for many decades now.

    This is the biggest reason why I am so anti-LCA. By the time we are fully capable of using LCA with 2000 hour pilots in the force, aircraft like PAKFA will have replacements planned while the US will already be testing or inducting heavy 6th gen aircraft. But at the same time aircraft like Jaguar and Mig-21 Bison which are more or less at the same level as the LCA already have these 2000 hour+ pilots in the fleet with more coming up over the years. So, it becomes more prudent to keep the experience and the capability until better replacements come up.

    Heck, ground staff need even more experience as compared to pilots.

    IAF is using the same argument to prevent handing over helicopters to the IA. Even the IA needs pilots and ground staff with as much experience and this will take at least 2 or 3 decades in order to come up to IAF's current level of proficiency.
     
  14. Kesang

    Kesang Regular Member

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    Instead of upgrading jaguars, what about buying some su-34? They are cheap as well it can defend itself better than Indian Jags who doesn't has any radar( if i am not wrong ). And it will last long( i meant that we don't have to worry about retiring them soon unlike jaguar).
     
  15. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Brilliance Senior Member

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    aircrafts like jags and migs are so inferior to lca in every count. jags cannot defend themselves in any worthwhile manner.

    . Migs have very serious engines isssues and tough to handle that forced IAf to issue statement it won't train young pilots on mig-21s any more.

    what is the range of mig radar? will it have any asea upgrade or engine upgrade planned?what will mig -21 bison pilots do after 10 year? retire with the plane? Meanwhile pilots training on tejas mk-1 will be well positioned to transfer their skills to mk-2

    it will take ten years even to define the parameters of 6th gen planes according o boeing chief.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2012
  16. Agnostic_Indian

    Agnostic_Indian Regular Member

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    I did some searching and discussion with other informed members.


    what I get is - jaguar is not officially meant for SEAD missions although the French used it for the role. it is a strike fighter good for ground attack, and CAS, and used to be a nuclear delivery platform for India..today mirage or mki also can take up that job as they too have EMP/HMP Protection and good enough range, after all jaguars were replace by lesser range rafale and typhoons, so I guess they got much more capacities to ignore the slight decrease in range. so mki can be considered for the same. what mki can offer is more hard points (jag got only 5),more weapons types (kh31, brahmose, nirbay, etc ) better ew suite (internal or external ) , maneuverity etc so the trade off is not bad.

    having operated mirage 2000 will help us quickly understand the systems and simulations and form SOP for training ,tactics maintenance, etc because rafale is some what similar and extension of mirage.

    upgraded mig 29 and lca also can also be used for CAS missions as a stop gap measure although both lacks range..but re fuellers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2012
  17. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Jags not for SEAD, sorry but Jags are meant for SEAD. As a matter of fact it can do any strike role there is. A large fleet would mean much more flexibility in using the aircraft as compared to Mirage-2000 which needs to commit resources for conducting air superiority missions and strike missions.

    But, yeah compared to Mirage-2000, the older Jags before the DARIN upgrades couldn't have handled SEAD. Jaguar is primarily dependent on the ESM for SEAD in order to pinpoint ground based radar locations passively. ARMs may be equipped. Apart from that it cannot use cruise missiles due to the lack of a radar.

    As for MKI, we don't have enough numbers to replace Jaguars. So, there is no such plan for it until AMCA comes up.

    If you want an immediate replacement for Jags, none exist. We still have hundreds of much older aircraft that need to be replaced at a higher priority, namely around 200 Mig-21s and 80-100 Mig-27s. If you want a replacement for Jags by the next decade, it is very much possible, either with more Rafale or AMCA. So, the current plans are to replace around 250-300 aircraft by this decade, the Migs. And then replace another 250 aircraft by the end of next decade, namely 120+ Jaguars, 63 Mig-29s and 49(51) Mirage-2000s. That's why the Jags, Mirage-2000s and Mig-29s are undergoing upgrades now so they are more or less relevant for another decade. Things seem to be going according to plan from what we see.

    If you want this happening sooner, then that's not in the plan.
     
  18. Immanuel

    Immanuel Senior Member Senior Member

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    Offcourse Jag will perform deep very low level penetartion missions however this will happen with Mig-29s/MKis flying top cover protecting the strike. I think they will perform beautifully once fully networked.
     
  19. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Though i still feel the Upgrade is incomplete without a Radar..
     
  20. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    Why radars are not included in the upgrade?
     

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