Indian Jaguar Upgrade stalled ?

[A.V.]

NEW DELHI: The defence ministry has withdrawn its tender for re-engining the Indian Air Force's Jaguar combat jets after one of the two contenders opted out, a leading defence journal says.

The Request for Proposal (RfP), as the tender is known in technical parlance, was issued to Honeywell, which had offered its F-125IN engine and Rolls Royce, whose Adour-811 has powered the Jaguar's since their induction in the IAF in the late 1970s, India Strategic defence magazine reports in its current edition.

The IAF would now have to submit a fresh proposal to the defence ministry, which will then issue another tender. This process is expected to take about a year.

The economic times report.

 

[Zebra]

Any new news about Jaguar's upgrade issue ? Please .

One question - In some thread I saw an image of making new Jaguar aircraft . Do we still make new Jaguars ?

OR that one is an old image only ?

 

[Apollyon]

Any new news about Jaguar's upgrade issue ? Please .

One question - In some thread I saw an image of making new Jaguar aircraft . Do we still make new Jaguars ?

OR that one is an old image only ?

That Picture was from 1990's, and it was posted in "India's own Dreamliner" thread ..bad journalism ..!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I see no advantage now to upgrade JAGs and MIG-27, MRCA will replace them soon within next 10 years..

 

[Patriot]

I see no advantage now to upgrade JAGs and MIG-27, MRCA will replace them soon within next 10 years..

KB Sir, you are right on technical ground it may not have advantage but we also need enough number of A/c. The Jags are good DPS A/c & useful in maritime role as well. We should upgrade them, as it is going to take at least 5-7years to have enough MRCAs inducted to take them over.

Btw, We cannot rely only on MRCAs, as we are supposed to replace MIG-21s, Mig-27s etc etc... with MRCAs. IAF got to maintain the numbers also & our speed to procurement is well known. In addition , we are frequently loosing the A/c in crashes. Upgrade shall help IAF maintaining decent numbers as well as years of flying experience on these A/Cs.

 

[Yawn]

I see no advantage now to upgrade JAGs and MIG-27, MRCA will replace them soon within next 10 years..

The MMRCAs will not be available in any meaningful numbers until after 2020 and with its logistics being built up, it's initial operating costs (irrespective of whichever is chosen) would be higher. The Jaguars are currently available in numbers, have excellent operating costs and sortie rates and are unmatched in their low level capabilities. The 27 will probably be dumped within a decade though.

 

[SpArK]

Great news...Jaguar up-gradation is irrelevant to our doctrine or future plans.

Why give life to a dead horse, let the Rafale fill that job of ground attacks.

 

[Singh]

I see no advantage now to upgrade JAGs and MIG-27, MRCA will replace them soon within next 10 years..

Great news...Jaguar up-gradation is irrelevant to our doctrine or future plans.

Why give life to a dead horse, let the Rafale fill that job of ground attacks.

Why would we waste uber expensive MMRCA airframes for what Jags and mig-27s can do perfectly well (cas) ?? And we still need a minimum squadron level tooo.

 

[SpArK]

The MMRCAs will not be available in any meaningful numbers until after 2020 and with its logistics being built up, it's initial operating costs (irrespective of whichever is chosen) would be higher. The Jaguars are currently available in numbers, have excellent operating costs and sortie rates and are unmatched in their low level capabilities. The 27 will probably be dumped within a decade though.

The upgradation , if at all started this year will take at-least half a decade to complete.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The MMRCAs will not be available in any meaningful numbers until after 2020 and with its logistics being built up, it's initial operating costs (irrespective of whichever is chosen) would be higher. The Jaguars are currently available in numbers, have excellent operating costs and sortie rates and are unmatched in their low level capabilities. The 27 will probably be dumped within a decade though.

AFAIK, Jags are good enough even now..

MRCA will replace most by 2020 with logistic online, But how come the initial operating cost going to be higher when the spares are available via HAL..

Its operational cost is higher than MIG-21/27..

 

[SpArK]

Why would we waste uber expensive MMRCA airframes for what Jags and mig-27s can do perfectly well (cas) ?? And we still need a minimum squadron level tooo.

I guess the thought of numbers is over and quality is the new mantra.

 

[nrj]

It doesn't make sense to use 100 mil baby to perform just CAS role.

What are the options other than MRCA ?

 

[Singh]

AFAIK, Jags are good enough even now..

MRCA will replace most by 2020 with logistic online, "
But how come the initial operating cost going to be higher when the spares are available via HAL..

Its operational cost is higher than MIG-21/27.."

I guess the thought of numbers is over and quality is the new mantra.

Every airframe lasts for a limited number of hours and then there is a per hour flying cost. By using MMRCA for "CAS" instead of the highly capable Jags and 27s, we are making a mistake.

1. It will be more expensive - per hour costs, spares, logistics, airframe costs
2. MRCA will be exposed in case of actual hostilities. MMRCA going down in war will be a psychological downer.
3. Qualified pilots will have to sit at desks, till decent numbers of MRCAs are inducted.
4. CAS doesn't require sophisticated jets. Thunderbolt is one of the finest CAS jet for eg. (besides Jag)

 

[SpArK]

Every airframe lasts for a limited number of hours and then there is a per hour flying cost. By using MMRCA for "CAS" instead of the highly capable Jags and 27s, we are making a mistake.

1. It will be more expensive - per hour costs, spares, logistics, airframe costs
2. MRCA will be exposed in case of actual hostilities. MMRCA going down in war will be a psychological downer.
3. Qualified pilots will have to sit at desks, till decent numbers of MRCAs are inducted.
4. CAS doesn't require sophisticated jets. Thunderbolt is one of the finest CAS jet for eg. (besides Jag)

I guess the upgrade is for only engine , as we had one upgrade somewhere in 1996.

Any idea how much further we can stretch these 5 squadrons without an engine upgrade?

It says the upgrade will be good till 2020.

Any idea , how much time these engine upgrade will take and what will be the year when last of the jet is upgraded to next level? 2018? 2019? 2020?:shocked:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Every airframe lasts for a limited number of hours and then there is a per hour flying cost. By using MMRCA for "CAS" instead of the highly capable Jags and 27s, we are making a mistake.

1. It will be more expensive - per hour costs, spares, logistics, airframe costs
2. MRCA will be exposed in case of actual hostilities. MMRCA going down in war will be a psychological downer.
3. Qualified pilots will have to sit at desks, till decent numbers of MRCAs are inducted.
4. CAS doesn't require sophisticated jets. Thunderbolt is one of the finest CAS jet for eg. (besides Jag)

I assumed you been sarcastic but its seems NOT !

MRCA: Multi Role Combat Aircraft.

1. Unit cost is higher coz it offer better payload better precision, better tech, Rest is same or less..
2. Well in that case MKI & Mirage is also fall in the same category, In War Machine are meant to go down so does the men..
3. No, They are deployed in their present squadrons, The Jags are very much modern even now..
4. Multi Role, Air, Sea, Ground..




Before everyone so much conscious abt this upgrade, Do check present Jag avionics and capabilities, they are very latest..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

A2A refueling Pod..

New Cockpit..

LGB / Cluster Bombs, Payload is fine too..

 

[Ray]

One requires to upgrade to keep an equipment contemporary and so that one can use a military equipment till its technical life is over.

Though this tendering process is a real time wasting procedure. It requires to be tweaked so that it is faster and yet not prone to manipulation.

 

[Singh]

I assumed you been sarcastic but its seems NOT !

MRCA: Multi Role Combat Aircraft.

1. Unit cost is higher coz it offer better payload better precision, better tech, Rest is same or less..
2. Well in that case MKI & Mirage is also fall in the same category, In War Machine are meant to go down so does the men..
3. No, They are deployed in their present squadrons, The Jags are very much modern even now..
4. Multi Role, Air, Sea, Ground..


Before everyone so much conscious abt this upgrade, Do check present Jag avionics and capabilities, they are very latest..

I am not being sarcastic, I am being rather factual. You can use MMRCA for CAS, but when you already have perfectly capable jets there is no need to use such advanced crafts for the same.

In the same vein during IFC 2011, Gen. Silvano Fregerio, deputy chief of air and space plans divisions of the Italian Air Force said that for CAS low cost platforms could still play an effective role when loaded with the latest technology, at a far lower cost than introducing new fighter jets.

The upgrade being talked about in that particular news item was only regarding "engines". Mig-27s were being tested with Al-31s in Russia. And I welcome this engine upgrade.

 

[nrj]

Mig27 & Jags should be replaced by dedicated A2G fleet, using MRCAs for that sounds overkill; also note that MRCAs wont be in surplus numbers anytime soon.

There is also scope to strategically involve Army in decision making or appreciate Army's air wing.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I am not being sarcastic, I am being rather factual. You can use MMRCA for CAS, but when you already have perfectly capable jets there is no need to use such advanced crafts for the same.

In the same vein during IFC 2011, Gen. Silvano Fregerio, deputy chief of air and space plans divisions of the Italian Air Force said that for CAS low cost platforms could still play an effective role when loaded with the latest technology, at a far lower cost than introducing new fighter jets.

The upgrade being talked about in that particular news item was only regarding "engines". Mig-27s were being tested with Al-31s in Russia. And I welcome this engine upgrade.

Jags were not capable of bombing during Kargil but MRCA fighters could, Besides having MRCA doesn't mean Jags wont be operational, They will be operation until they are complected obsolete then its IAF decide their final fate..

Gen is right but unlike IAF, IAF operate many types of Aircraft, which increase logistic chain, Having a superior Aircraft which can do better ground attacks so does Air defence and interception at same operational cost of the aircraft with low capability, the two points:

1. Lower the logistic chain hence the operation cost of sum of all aircraft s used..
2. Updated capability, Which the previous aircraft lack..



We are talking abt engine upgrade of JAG only, MIG-27 with AL-31 was indeed tested but not ordered..