Indian Army wants futuristic vehicle for its Armoured corps

[Rowdy]

This kind of beating around the bush in a round- round- and round fashion will derail everything..at least I am not impressed.

So remain to the point and answer issues raised by me..

and I repeat : If so many things are required to be specified then the designed is fixed by the user ..

Then what is use of the designer ? Then designer, read DRDO, can fix responsibility on user - is that it.. you want it that way .. forget it !!

Why do not you ( DRDO) plainly give up that you can not design .. there is no harm in that ??

Let someone else design and may be then you can respond to manufacture... stage two..

OK , take it this way _ Has not DRDO outsourced designing on many occasions ?

So what is this " Syapa" andall that Rudali act ??

let us agree to disagree then.............................

 

[karn]

You guys do realise what RFI actually stands for right ? The army is asking interested parties of their capabilities . After it has a knowledge of the capabilities the more technical specifications will go out . This also allows companies time to form consortiums and tie ups with foreign companies.

 

[Mad Indian]

I would have agree with you if we were Pakistani or Ugandan ..

Army is also Government largest typical government organization ..

And you are going to compare army with DRDO now? And since when did DRDO risk its life like army does daily. This analogy is insulting to the armed forces.

 

[Bhadra]

No body has either seen the questionnaire put up for the participants in the design competition at the end of RFI documents or centain people here deliberately wish to ignore that :

"Questionnaire.


(a) What is your estimate of the approximate expenditure likely to be incurred in


preparing the design?


(b) What is the approximate time period which will be required to prepare the design?


(c) What details would be needed in the FRCV design philosophy to enable the


design to be prepared?


(d) What is the approximate amount of prize money for the winning design which will


adequately motivate your organisation to participate in the competition?


(e) What would be your most preferred model for conduct of the competition such that


maximum transparency and a level playing field is maintained?"

It is quite clear at this stage that it is design competition but Rudali Brigade of DFI is up in arms and casting aspersions on Indian Army's motives and intentions.

I really do not know if hating and doubting Armed Forces is part of their induction training. This kind of prejudiced minds are not good for anyone.

 

[power_monger]

I am an engineer with advanced degree in an interdisciplinary craft. I can tell you the army has no idea what it wants(less likely) or it has already (ARMATA) something in mind. No one can even start designing with this.

I am into product design and i have the same exact opinion. Such vauge specifications indicates immaturity from Indian Army side. Its better DRDO drops out of this project which is bound to fail(in 10 year time frame).

 

[power_monger]

It is quite clear at this stage that it is design competition but Rudali Brigade of DFI is up in arms and casting aspersions on Indian Army's motives and intentions.

@pmaitra Request you to take required action against the fellow DFI member.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I am simply quoted your post which stating word ' Typical Government Organization ' in this case Army is also an Government organization and in the sense you spoke of Government organization sound insulting itself ..

Hence my reply ..

========================

I am well aware of your points, But here the topic is abt War preparedness of Army based on its procurements, Their is no place for sentiments and personal opinions ..

And you are going to compare army with DRDO now? And since when did DRDO risk its life like army does daily. This analogy is insulting to the armed forces.

 

[Rowdy]

I am into product design and i have the same exact opinion. Such vauge specifications indicates immaturity from Indian Army side. Its better DRDO drops out of this project which is bound to fail(in 10 year time frame).

Fanboiz going gaga over feedback etc are just fanboiz....unable to see the army beyond their emotionally high patriotism for what it is.... powerful as it may be, it is derived from the indian society and suffers from the same general lack of scientific awareness and quantitative aptitude the 45+ yr old in india suffer from. This RFI is not worth the paper it is written on, and now I doubt if the army has even an idea of the kinds of tanks used around the world, on which they can create a benchmark.
If I were the DRDO chief, I would refuse this RFI without a second doubt.

 

[Mad Indian]

I am simply quoted your post which stating word ' Typical Government Organization ' in this case Army is also an Government organization and in the sense you spoke of Government organization sound insulting itself ..

Hence my reply ..

========================

I am well aware of your points, But here the topic is abt War preparedness of Army based on its procurements, Their is no place for sentiments and personal opinions ..

Yes, but there is no contradiction in what I said- DRDO is indeed a typical govt org . Army is not. Unlike the typical govt organizations who have no consequence for failure and hence the leisurely useless attitude on deadlines and work, army has strict consequences on such things. They would pay with their lives if they were as complacent as DRDO or other typical govt organizations. That's why your comparison is insulting to armed forces, to equalise desk jockeys and self serving govt job holders(in DRDO) with people who put their lives on the line for the nation.

And I think only here in India we will see producers (DRDO ) abusing customers(armed forces) and the public siding with producers rather than with consumers.

 

[Mad Indian]

Fanboiz going gaga over feedback etc are just fanboiz....unable to see the army beyond their emotionally high patriotism for what it is.... powerful as it may be, it is derived from the indian society and suffers from the same general lack of scientific awareness and quantitative aptitude the 45+ yr old in india suffer from. This RFI is not worth the paper it is written on, and now I doubt if the army has even an idea of the kinds of tanks used around the world, on which they can create a benchmark.
If I were the DRDO chief, I would refuse this RFI without a second doubt.

Yeah right - you know what army requirements are more than what armed forces know themselves. Who is being the irrational fanboy here again?

 

[Rowdy]

Yeah right - you know what army requirements are more than what armed forces know themselves. Who is being the irrational fanboy here again?

When did I say I know what the army wants.
I am saying that the army itself does not know what it wants.

 

[Mad Indian]

@pmaitra Request you to take required action against the fellow DFI member.

I completely agree with him. He is a defence professional and I would trust his info on defence more than what DRDO fanboys here sprout. This site has been an echo chamber of DRDO fanboys long enough

 

[Mad Indian]

When did I say I know what the army wants.
I am saying that the army itself does not know what it wants.

And how do you come to that conclusion? It has stated what it wants and here you are claiming that they don't know themselves what they want. Now prove your allegation.

 

[MananNarainSharma]

I am no defense expert but some of the things the Indian army comes up with are completely baffling. Fucking hell those RFP requirements

 

[Rowdy]

And how do you come to that conclusion? It has stated what it wants and here you are claiming that they don't know themselves what they want. Now prove your allegation.

They have just written senseless drivel....as I have said earlier they don't even write how many people they want. T90 is a 3 man tank...so what have they learned... is 3 man tank enough or do they want a 4 man Tank(like the M1Abrams )... just saying we want a tank is not enough..... What is the turn radius of T90? This smells like another MMRCA.. vague conditions , pitching single and double engine fighters against one another....and senseless trolling like

The new tank’s firepower should be well matched to contemporary tanks in engagement ranges

Yeah so what do you mean by that ... this one sentence is so vague... do you want to match all tanks of china/Pak by gun dia or with a higher rounds per minute. What did you learn from 65?
What kind of acceleration is needed? Since they will mostly be used on the western border, what weight/power ratio is good ...if not the exact value then a range can be fixed...least specifying more or less than T90.

THE INDIAN ARMY HAS NO TANK PHILOSOPHY

at least this is what this RFP shows.

 

[Mad Indian]

They have just written senseless drivel....as I have said earlier they don't even write how many people they want. T90 is a 3 man tank...so what have they learned... is 3 man tank enough or do they want a 4 man Tank(like the M1Abrams )... just saying we want a tank is not enough..... What is the turn radius of T90? This smells like another MMRCA.. vague conditions , pitching single and double engine fighters against one another....and senseless trolling like

Yeah so what do you mean by that ... this one sentence is so vague... do you want to match all tanks of china/Pak by gun dia or with a higher rounds per minute. What did you learn from 65?
What kind of acceleration is needed? Since they will mostly be used on the western border, what weight/power ratio is good ...if not the exact value then a range can be fixed...least specifying more or less than T90.

at least this is what this RFP shows.

Bhadra has answered all the questions you have raised in this post. So no. You have proven nothing

 

[Rowdy]

Bhadra has answered all the questions you have raised in this post. So no. You have proven nothing

Nope...None of these things in RFI fix the design.....they just fix the PARAMETERS. he is just trolling as he is a defence professional .... You need parameters/specs to design a tank. All the RFI has is drivel. He is just confused between design and specs and hopes that the army will resolve it through "COMMUNICATION"

 

[karn]

When did I say I know what the army wants.
I am saying that the army itself does not know what it wants.

I am no defense expert but some of the things the Indian army comes up with are completely baffling. Fucking hell those RFP requirements

They have just written senseless drivel....as I have said earlier they don't even write how many people they want. T90 is a 3 man tank...so what have they learned... is 3 man tank enough or do they want a 4 man Tank(like the M1Abrams )... just saying we want a tank is not enough..... What is the turn radius of T90? This smells like another MMRCA.. vague conditions , pitching single and double engine fighters against one another....and senseless trolling like

Yeah so what do you mean by that ... this one sentence is so vague... do you want to match all tanks of china/Pak by gun dia or with a higher rounds per minute. What did you learn from 65?
What kind of acceleration is needed? Since they will mostly be used on the western border, what weight/power ratio is good ...if not the exact value then a range can be fixed...least specifying more or less than T90.

at least this is what this RFP shows.

Atleast understand the difference between RFP and RFI before insulting anyone else . The army is asking any interested party what their capabilities are before framing its requirements in specifics. Why specify a 4 man or 3 man crew if no one can build a reliable autoloader ?

 

[bose]

@Bhadra the IA is clueless and itself do not know what it wants... IA is playing safe with a vague requirements...

I am myself into product development, the requirement(s) for new tank have to be unambiguous and quantifiable ...if it is not against what the success is to be measured ?

 

[Rowdy]

Atleast understand the difference between RFP and RFI before insulting anyone else . The army is asking any interested party what their capabilities are before framing its requirements in specifics. Why specify a 4 man or 3 man crew if no one can build a reliable autoloader ?

A more logical answer than any other but still as an engineer I will be skeptical. Lets see how this progresses. And RFI should atleast have the spec boundaries (e.g. weight<50 tonnes) etc.