Indian Army bailed out British Empire during Great War: Jody East

[Waffen SS]

That solves the whole issue. If you are not a leader and can't change a sausage, so were those Indians of the past that you decry and abuse with venom!

The Indians of yore was as nationalistic as you today. It is just that they were helpless as you to change the situation, for good reasons. QED.

I again say I am not leader of Indians to force my opinion on them. Indians were not Nationalistic that's why they did not collaborate with Gandhiji, Indians were not nationalistic that's why Indian police was often chasing Revolutionaries.

Irish was also helpless against British. But after WW1 there was massive anti-British movement, nearly all Irish people connected with British administration resigned. So British administration due to lack of employers almost collapsed. Please read more. Indians were not nationalistic, if we were we would not be ruled British.

Did Indian people connected with British administration resigned in Gandhiji's invitation? Some did most not. Gandhiji said he would bring Swaraj within 1 year if people follow him, people did not follow completely that's why India was not free.

Only after WW2 and INA invasion, all people connected to British administration woke up, even soldiers mutinied. Navy revolt of 1946, that's why British left India. That' sign that this time Nationalism was spreading through out India.

I certainly cant force my opinion on Indians, and I dont take pride on those Indians who help British either.

Caste and creed condemnation is because of education and emancipation and nothing else. If you have not understood that, you have understood nothing. In Bengal, from where you claim you are, caste was not an issue since from a long time because education brought in social reformers and emancipation dawned.

On the issue of Nazis and Southern Americans, please clear your views and then write. You are going round and round in circles without being coherent.

Please reread history of Bengal. In medieval time among Hindus cast was massive problem. You know 1 Hindu(during Sri Chaitanya dev's time) had some thing connection with Muslim(Perhaps Hushen Shah) so Brahmin craps said him if he wish to return to Hinduism, he must take a bath in burning ghee to be "purified" but Sri Chaitanya dev said him if he loves God from inner heart, all solved.

Massive rise of Islam in Bengal was caused due to cast system. It is not my dialogue, Swami Vivekananda said those. Who said cast system was not in Bengal? The rise education that you are talking about(if we say modern) then it did not come until British, in medieval time, when Hinduism was degrading in Bengal, Sri Chaitanya Dev's Vakti Movement saved Hinduism.

Not only Bengal, the cause of rise of Islam through out India is due to cast system. And from present perspective we hate it. But contemporary low class people accepted Brahmin's domination, which present day low class people will not in some extent.

About Germans and southern Americans they changed their perspective, why Southerners were racist because they considered Blacks inferior, which they dont now, so Southerners cant be called Racist now. From Nazi perspective Jews are sub-human, but from present German perspective Jews are not.

A Communist is called Communist because he sees from Communist perspective, if he sees from Nazi perspective he is no longer Communist. Can you understand?

I have explained what is valour and how it differentiate murderers or terrorists or rioters from those who show courage within the ambit of law and societal norms. If you have not understood that, let us not waste time. From Modern education perspective these are condemanble ,but from medieval educational perspective it was not.

You fail to understand what is valour because you have never seen it being exhibited. Armchair postulations is hardly a qualification to understand the same.

What law are you talking about? Laws can change, during Vietnam war Viet Cong was seen as terrorist organization by RVN Government, now they are liberators. Dont you know the saying one country's terrorists are other country's freedom fighters? When Americans revolted against British, British tagged them "traitors", Americans won so Rebels are now patriot, if British won Rebels would remain "traitor". Hope this helps.

What is wrong in asking for an Apology? What is wrong is that it cannot change history or bring anyone alive. It is only hot air.

The British don't celebrate what the Indians did for them?

It just shows your blind hatred. It shows you have not even read the article and have gone ballistics feeing your bile! Just read the article.

Maybe this would also show how much of regards the British have for Indian contribution.

Lt General MM Lakhera, retired and erstwhile Adjutant General of Indian army, talks of an episode in his book, "RESURGENT INDIA" about it. Would you care to know about it ?

If British are really thankful to India, then why did they cry when India launched Mars Mission? If they are really thankful to India, not only fallen British-Indian army soldiers they should also honour Million of Indians who died in famine which was caused by British simply to make British powerful. They dont respect died Indian villagers who lost their lives because British was busy to make British super power, but they do honour fallen soldiers cause those soldiers fought against British enemy.

You see the hypocrisy of British? They honour Dead soldiers who died while fighting for British, but they dont honour those Millions of Indians who were starved to death simply because British was to make themselves super power.

Now, how many of your Independent Nationalistic Ministers have bothered to care about honouring our soldiers? India does not even have a War Memorial! All gas and no go, just like your fake nationalism.

As far as the Pakistani soldiers I spoke about, I have met them a couple of times on the LC. We had lunch together (not the ceremonial type or a special occasion as you would imagine, but merely tiffin, one to one). And there was no animosity.

I have traced history how the British made India what is India today and Patel gave the finishing touches. I can't explain it any better. If the Native States were puppets as you claim, then was the rest of India roaring Tigers?

As you know I dont like Indian Government, I also want a erected a War Memorial for soldiers who died to protect our country. Indeed We have "Amar Jawan Jyoti" In Delhi. Indian Government regularly praise those soldiers who showed valour. Why only Indian army did 1984 riot's victims get justice? Bhupal Gas leak criminals? No. So why ask me same question regarding idiotic stance of Indian government to help people while I am myself trying to find those answers?

As for Pakistanis, did you take 365 days to finish tiffin? No. Just meeting them for few times for tiffin, does not help you to understand their true character. So we need to understand their character as per their activity, and you know better than about it than me.:thumb:

 

[Simple_Guy]

Not only Bengal, the cause of rise of Islam through out India is due to cast system.

If that was true Muslim population would have been much higher and spread uniformly across every inch India.

But they were concentrated in certain pockets only.

 

[Ray]

I stand in awe of the high quality debate on this thread and admit that i am in no way up to it, nevertheless allow me
a simplistic question or two ? :-

(1) What if the "volunteer " army had refused to fight - i.e surrender in droves as the Pakistan army did in 1971. COuld they then have been trained by the Germans for "counter-operations" in large numbers ?
(2) Would that have in fact hastened the independence of India or would it have had repercussions

If these questions have been dealt with elsewhere, then please ignore an delete the post . Thanks in advance
(Not blaming anyone or community, just a simple "what if" )

There was the The Legion Freies Indien (German: "Free India Legion") or Indische Freiwilligen-Legion Regiment 950 ("Indian Volunteer Legion Regiment 950").

It was initially raised in 1941 and attached to the German Army (Wehrmacht Heer) and later from August 1944 attached to the Waffen-SS.

The initial recruits were Indian student volunteers resident in Germany at the time, and a handful from the Indian prisoners of war (POWs) captured by Erwin Rommel during his North Africa Campaign. It would later draw a larger number of Indian POWs as volunteers.

Though it was initially raised as an assault group that would form a pathfinder to a German-Indian joint invasion of the western frontiers of British India, only a small contingent was ever put to its original intended purpose. A hundred of the legionnaires were parachuted into eastern Iran in 'Operation Bajadere' to infiltrate into India through Baluchistan and commence sabotage operations against the British in preparation for an anticipated national revolt.

A small contingent, including the leadership and the officer corps, was transferred to Azad Hind ("Free India") after its formation and saw action in the INA's Burma Campaign.

In Italy, the unit saw action against British and Polish troops and also undertook anti-partisan operations in 1944

Wiki

 

[Waffen SS]

If that was true Muslim population would have been much higher and spread uniformly across every inch India.

But they were concentrated in certain pockets only.

That was going to happen, Vakti Movement saved Hinduism.

There are various incidents where Muslim(originally converted from Hinduism) joined Hinduism again after being inspired by Vakti leaders.

You know Yaban Haridas? He was Muslim later converted to Hinduism due to Sri Chaitanya Dev.

There was Shuddhi movement which was intended to bring Muslims and Hindus back to Hinduism.

Shuddhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This article not complete though.

Indian National Army with such lightly armed Military was never able to defeat British. Defence system in NE India was no longer like 1942 in 1944 when INA invasion started, by 1944 Japanese Military was over expanded. Direction of war was changing. So what was needed that was doing some thing which can break British Indian army's loyalty to British after the war, and INA was successful here.

 

[Ray]

Indian National Army with such lightly armed Military was never able to defeat British. Defence system in NE India was no longer like 1942 in 1944 when INA invasion started, by 1944 Japanese Military was over expanded. Direction of war was changing. So what was needed that was doing some thing which can break British Indian army's loyalty to British after the war, and INA was successful here.

Please confine yourself to Hinduism and Muslim stuff.

Your analysis of military issues is flawed and I suggest you hone up on military history, strategy, tactics and so on and then opine.

I would have replied to each of your post, but I find that one cannot operate in an environment reeking of stratification in knowledge.

 

[Waffen SS]

Please confine yourself to Hinduism and Muslim stuff.

Your analysis of military issues is flawed and I suggest you hone up on military history, strategy, tactics and so on and then opine.

I would have replied to each of your post, but I find that one cannot operate in an environment reeking of stratification in knowledge.

Overall strength of Japanese army was 350,000 in Burma, INA never had 50,000+ active soldiers.

In 1942, Japanese just recently captured British base Singapore, British hoped Singapore would deter Japanese, and within few weeks British Burma fell. It was by summer 1942. Then Rain started, during this British organized their defence in NE.

Japanese aircrafts flew to support Japanese ground units in 1942, by 1944 Japan diverted their air services mostly to stop Americans in Pacific area. Situation of 1944 was never similar to 1942 and that's why many say if Netaji directly fled to Japan instead of Afghanistan, history would be different. And Japanese planes were outclassed by 1944 by new Allied planes.

INA did not have tanks, did not have planes or heavy artillery, it was completely depended on Japanese.

Nearly in all books you will find NE defence was better prepared in 1944 than 1942 and than INA expected. Please read more.:thumb:

Did you read the book "The Springing Tiger" by Hugh Toye? And many other books as well.

Read the book "Subhas Ghare Fere Nai" by Shaymal Bose in Bengali.

 

[Ray]

I have read Springing Tiger and it is in my library at home.

You are merely stating facts, that is not analysis.

Tanks and Heavy artillery given to the INA would have been a great 'force multiplier'?

That is why I suggested that you bone up on matters military.

This is the image of the Stillwell Road.

And here are the Jungles of Burma, quite akin to that of what we find in the NE.

Now can heavy artillery and tanks operate?

How long would it take to build a road that can allow heavy artillery/ tanks?

And BTW, the artillery is not that effective in the jungles because of the canopy that bursts the shells before landing.

The Stillwell Road (picture above) was built by 15,000 American soldiers (60 percent of whom were African-Americans) and 35,000 local workers at a cost of US$150 million. 1,100 Americans died during the construction, as well as many more locals.

The construction started on On 1 December 1942 and even late 1944, it had not reached China!

 

[Waffen SS]

Second World War clashes named as 'Greatest British Battle' - Telegraph

You see the M3 Tank there?

Even if INA was given tanks, still they would not be able to operate that properly. There was no way for Japanese and INA to break British defence in NE border, they did not have enough supplies. Japan itself was struggling in 1944. Situation was not like 1942.

http://www.fireandfury.com/painting/burmaarmypaintingguide.pdf



Dont go through the "if" perspective, If you can say what would happen if Japanese would capture in India in 1944, I can also say what would happen if Indian people plus thousands of Indian soldiers from ex-British India army did not approve it? What would happen if Japanese approved Indian independence and kept their colony only to Burma?

So you see there? There are no limitations of what would happen "If"....?

So dont see from "if" perspective, see through what happened perspective, and in this perspective INA was heroes. They failed in their mission but succeeded to acheive their objective(liberating India) indirectly.

 

[Samar Rathi]

Pretty Intense debate

Well as Indian citizen everyone have right to have their own point of view regarding British colonial history in India but I agree to lots of waffen point regarding praising those who fought against British rule rather than siding with colonial Army.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

That was going to happen, Vakti Movement saved Hinduism.

There are various incidents where Muslim(originally converted from Hinduism) joined Hinduism again after being inspired by Vakti leaders.

You know Yaban Haridas? He was Muslim later converted to Hinduism due to Sri Chaitanya Dev.

There was Shuddhi movement which was intended to bring Muslims and Hindus back to Hinduism.

Shuddhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This article not complete though.

Indian National Army with such lightly armed Military was never able to defeat British. Defence system in NE India was no longer like 1942 in 1944 when INA invasion started, by 1944 Japanese Military was over expanded. Direction of war was changing. So what was needed that was doing some thing which can break British Indian army's loyalty to British after the war, and INA was successful here.

@Simple_Guy He means Bhakti Movement & he is correct to a great extent about repercussions of caste-system & role of Bhakti preachers. They actually saved the Hindu civilization.

 

[Neeraj]

http://defencehunters.com/2017/08/30/indian-army-brief-history/