Indian Army Artillery

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Rage, Sep 8, 2009.

  1. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,703
    Likes Received:
    7,716
    Why do you want only M777 to fire this ammunition. Any 155 mm howitzers including Bofors and Dhanus should be able to fire this ammunition. Well one does not need Excalibur to bombard Muzaffarabad which can be done with a few batteries of heavy Pinaka or Smerch. Excalibur is meant for pin point target such as enemy bunker, Command Post, Radar Station, C4I installations, communication nodes and tanks in open tankable country.

    M777 I suppose is meant for specific theatre where the road conditions are very bad or road have not reached or guns need to be deployed as fast and quick as possible through heli lifts as for mountain strike corps.


     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
    Haldiram, sathya and Absolut_Vodka like this.
  2. Absolut_Vodka

    Absolut_Vodka Wg cmdr, crows and trees squadron

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2019
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    3,176
    Very expensive round. INR 45 lakhs or USD 68K per target. Is Paki life worth that much? I hope it's used to target only HVTs.
     
  3. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,703
    Likes Received:
    7,716
    Indian Army to buy American howitzer ammo for long-range accurate strikes
    "The Indian Army is planning to acquire the Excalibur artillery ammunition from the Americans under the emergency procurement procedures," government sources said here.
    ANI|
    Jul 07, 2019, 05.46 PM IST
    //economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/70115850.cms? utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

    [​IMG]


    Seeking to acquire the capability to hit enemy positions close to populated areas without causing collateral damage, the Indian Army is in the process of acquiring Excalibur guided long- range artillery ammunition which can strike targets more than 50 km away.

    "The IndianArmy is planning to acquire the Excalibur artillery ammunition from the Americans under the emergency procurement procedures," government sources said here.

    The acquisition case is being processed under the emergency powers for procurement of weapon systems and ammunition to be war-ready in post-Pulwama attack-attack-like situations.

    The ammunition is being acquired for units deployed along the Line of Control where artillery shelling by Pakistan is a common feature.

    The ammunition can be busted in the air as well as after its penetration into bunker-type structures by using its different fuses.

    In a recent meeting, the Army briefed Defence Minister Rajnath Singh about its plans to acquire the guided ammunition from the US which uses the GPS system to hit targets at ranges more than 50 km.

    The Excalibur ammunition was developed in the US for improving the accuracy of the artillery shells in the war in Afghanistan which the Americans have been fighting for almost two decades now.

    The Army has also started inducting the US-made M-777 ultra-light howitzers which can be used for firing the Excalibur ammunition.

    The Army has also gone ahead with the purchase of the Spike anti-tank guided missiles which can be used against the enemy armoured columns.

    The Indian Air Force recently acquired multiple ammunition and spares for its fighter aircraft to be war-ready.
    The acquisition by the Air Force includes the Balakot airstrike-fame Spice 2000 bombs, made by Israel, including the version which can penetrate and destroy fortified structures. The IAF has also acquired the Strum Ataka anti-tank guided missiles for its Mi-35 attack helicopters.


    //economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/70115850.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
     
    vampyrbladez likes this.
  4. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,703
    Likes Received:
    7,716
    Indian Army artillery is actually on ball.

    They are planning to procure "Course Correction Fuzes" to attain greater accuracy and effectiveness of 155 artillery shell.

    The RFI is here :
    https://indianarmy.nic.in/MakeInInd...endorsView.aspx?MnId=1qgF4FUgruA70+HzgKW93g==

    " Indian Army is planning to procure 155mm Trajectory Correctable Munitions (Course Correctable Fuze) for 155mm Gun System to include 39 / 45 / 52 calibre equipment. It is proposed to identify probable vendors who can undertake the above project. Vendors are requested to forward information/compliance in the form of ‘Questionnaire’ attached as per Appendix A to the RFI. In addition, the vendors are also requested to furnish details as per Information Performa attached as per Appendix B to the RFI."

    Indian's Defence Scientist community and organisation so far have not been able to give an " Indigenous Electronic Fuze" since 1992 when the decision to make that in India was made. Even after 25 years, there is a dire shortage of electronic fuzes which are assembled in India at exorbitant cost by importing all assemblies from South African company.
    I do not know how many years this community will make "Course Correction Fuzes".

    Then they feel bad if facts are brought out ....
     
    vampyrbladez likes this.
  5. sorcerer

    sorcerer Senior Member Veteran Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2013
    Messages:
    13,732
    Likes Received:
    33,587
    Location:
    India
    We need a "course correction fuze" for the babus and scientists in organizations!
     
  6. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,703
    Likes Received:
    7,716
    The world of fire power has / is transiting to accurate pin point firing from the earlier practice of massed fire in order to achieve better effectiveness and economy of efforts. Today, the nature of targets and situations so demands that the target is destroyed by utmost surprise, in the first round, with assured weight of explosive power and assured kill probability.

    Precision is accepted the new mantra for all forms and platforms of fire - be it snippers, SPICE, LBGs, GPS guided bombs, krasnopol, excalibur, LOAL and many other methods used.

    Course correction amongst scientist and bureaucrats can only be a function of Dunda.
     
    Bacon, AnantS and sorcerer like this.
  7. ezsasa

    ezsasa Senior Member Veteran Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2014
    Messages:
    10,367
    Likes Received:
    21,993
    Location:
    Andhra Pradesh, India
    Set up an company and design it, whats stopping you.......
     
  8. Sourav Kumar

    Sourav Kumar Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Messages:
    517
    Likes Received:
    864
    this is cheap rhetoric.

    Please enter a message with at least 30 characters.
     
  9. ezsasa

    ezsasa Senior Member Veteran Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2014
    Messages:
    10,367
    Likes Received:
    21,993
    Location:
    Andhra Pradesh, India
    Please elaborate.............................
     
  10. Sourav Kumar

    Sourav Kumar Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Messages:
    517
    Likes Received:
    864
    If a person claims that he is bringing facts out, you can not ask him to setup a company.
     
    AnantS likes this.
  11. ezsasa

    ezsasa Senior Member Veteran Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2014
    Messages:
    10,367
    Likes Received:
    21,993
    Location:
    Andhra Pradesh, India
    if a person demonstrates a deliberate agenda on a daily basis, what else can be done to let the person know that we get it?
    there are many aspects in Indian domestic defence design and production that many on this forum are not happy about, occasional sulking is fine but constant sulking on a daily basis is ridiculous.
     
    IndianHawk and Indx TechStyle like this.
  12. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,703
    Likes Received:
    7,716
    Yes. the shops that have been set up by ECL and others is my shop. Those shops were setup with my money but the shopkeeper has failed to deliver. Have no doubt that it was public money and I am part of that "public". I hope that educates you a little.

    No one stopped Indians doing that. In fact most of the DODOs and OFB "scientists" do land up setting up companies to do liasioning for defence procurements (dalali shops) or making / manufacturing some spurious materials to be supplied to DRDO labs and OFB.

    Now if I am not capable of setting a shop individually. It does not mean I can demand or ask for things which I can not make myself or the entire thing called "existence" will fail. I will not be eating many things, I shall be shoeless, clothless, have no implements and no medicine. My entire life depends on items made by others and I also make some - not electronic fuzes.

    That is a demand due to mutual dependencies and there is a payment for meeting the demands. No one is asking Fuzes for free.

    I only brought out that Indian MoD decided in 1992 that thenceforth artillery will be given electronic fuzes, The MoD babu did not give orders for mechanical fuzes because Electronic Fuzes were coming. Indian Army artillery landed up with no fuzes. The scientists slept having eaten more than required, OFB had no orders for fuzes they made and Indian gunners shagged under trees waiting for me to set up my shop. I waited for @ezsasa to tell me that.

    Nice story, Nah !
     
  13. AnantS

    AnantS Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,438
    Likes Received:
    4,099
    Location:
    Yatra Tatra
    So Hospital Orders 2000$ costing knives from US of A instead of working/complaining with vendors to sharpen the knives. The US of A ships "handles" of knives as part of first shipment of CKD. Later India declares Students with US medical degree need to retake exam in India to work as practitioner. In protest US stops the 2nd shipment of blades. Now hospital is without blades and only has handle. They have refused to work with Indian vendor and now scouting for new set of knives from France and Russia who are now quoting 8000$ each piece.

    No No... Many examples on the contrary..
    KC 390 vs Airbus 330 MRTT
    F 16 - vs Japanese F -2
    Russian Sukhoi 30 MKI vs Indian Sukhoi 30 MKI
    etc

    Nations have chosen expensive often less capable indigenous examples - if that meant building local capacity. Remember first of products will always be costly because they carry cost of R&D. Once that cost has been recovered, cost goes down or you can get fabulous discounts. The problem with Indian Army or Military, they manytimes behave like a spoilt child who insists on eating 200 Rs Spinach Subway wrap because it saw advt mentioning them as healthy over Ghar da saron da saag , methi paneer palak!

    I like Navy for that, they are good task masters with intense focus on getting things done from DRDO and other PSU's while themselves being in driver seat. India's responsibilities and Challenges are growing and correspondingly its military needs are growing. Indian Army cannot depend on adhoc imports alone, you will need to take indigenization big way. Dont like DRDO, formulate your own Design agency. Tie up with Private sector for productionizing it.

    Iteration is REALITY. Be it Defence or Private sector. The Phones that you use have many bug built in H/W or S/W which gets ironed out with each iteration. Same with weapons. There exist no perfect weapon, constant tweaking of weapon design goes on. Army needs to be smart and far sighted. They need short term , medium term and long term goals and they should be so good that they STICK to it.

    I understand DRDO has not been able to come products -- affectingly sabotaging army procurement from elsewhere. This is where Govt needs to step in. Instead of doing hazily defined / unending R&D on exotic stuff/concept. They should simply introduce sprint cycles, with each sprint giving what user wants. This way they can early on identify whether they have capability to deliver in short period or it will take time. If its latter - let army import.

    Simply for reasons mentioned earlier. They are not selling you model which is already in production. They are selling you first iteration of Product, they need the R&D cost to be amortized. Indian ARmy will have huge benefit - they will get very cheap & reliable maintenance deal. Moreover, Army will have complete control on further modification.

    Please do understand ATAGS is indigenous gun - you/India will own IP. Which will not be case with other Guns which will be mere Screwdriver giri. Gun Barrel Tech is closely guarded tech. No one easily shares. India is luck to have compaines like Kalyani who spent their own mOney in Buying Gun tech from US Company and developed its own ULH. Mind you there also bidding for US Contracts. Hope its not repeat of TONBO story






    Well if I am not wrong new defence policy prioritizes Designed and Made in India over Others


    Tata Power, Kalyani are both liaising with DRDO for product ionizing ATAGS. Infact Kalyani supplies Barrelsto Tata Power ATAGS. Kalyani version has autoloader - Tata seems to be still working on it. Thats why contract got delayed IIRC reading from an old article sometime back


    Agree whole heartedly - But Netas and babus fear Military becoming too big for its own shoes like in Pakistan - So doubt it will be ever done in peace time.


    Agree, they have been wasting money on Minority scholarships and Sick PSU's. Money could have been spent elsewhere



    Will count on your words! :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
  14. ezsasa

    ezsasa Senior Member Veteran Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2014
    Messages:
    10,367
    Likes Received:
    21,993
    Location:
    Andhra Pradesh, India
    why be an ECL, be VEM technologies?
     
  15. Sourav Kumar

    Sourav Kumar Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Messages:
    517
    Likes Received:
    864
    I personally see value in what Bhadra @Bhadra says.

    If a normal Indian guy has a japanese car, a japanese bike, a korean fridge, a korean washing machine, an american laptop, a chinese mobile, a pair of german shoes (thanks to the overall great progress that India did in last 70 years), why do we expect armed forces to settle with Indian goodies?

    If there is corruption and malpractices in armed forces, that can be discussed. But Indian goodies for only armed forces? Not fair.

    Coming to DRDO, first it has got resrvation. Second, it is a govt org. I can only make generalized assumptions about orgs like DRDO since i have no idea how it's inside. But I know that toppers from NIT Durgapur are generally recruited in DRDO. NIT Durgapur is the 3rd best engineering institute in WB and I met a topper like that in my personal capacity. To me it seems that such a topper would be of no use to nation building when it comes to defence tech. For real innovative defence work in a country like India which is lagging anyway, the best of the best talent are required. Even those talents would face lot of cultural/ orgnizational trouble in existing govt institutes i guess.

    On the contrary the only ISRO guy whom I met was an MTech from IIT Bombay and seemed to be a genuine bright guy who could do something. He left ISRO after 5-7 years of job experience to join a private company in aerospace domain.

    Just two examples from my own experience. Does not allow me to draw any conclusion statistically but there is a saying in Bengali: "We know how well cooked the rice is by pressing one grain of rice".

    And now that I write about all this, I remember another guy (a former roommate!) who was also from NIT Durgapur. This guy joked that DRDO was researching to make a mosquito-repellant (for Indian Army that is) for many years but failed to deliver :D
     
  16. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,703
    Likes Received:
    7,716
    I shall bring out only a few points in response.
    ATAGS is a DRDO technology jointly made by DRDL, OFB abd other DRDO labs including the barrel design, and reacoil systems. Kalyani is only a manufacturing agency. GoI has alrady spent money on it so plaese do not talk about cost of R&D and its recovery etc.

    How many models of India developed for MiG-21 when India had been manufacturing that after TOT ?

    How many better models of Chitah / Chetaks were ever made after TOT.

    What did OFB and DRDO do with 105mm gun technology ?

    Wah ? Indian INSAS, Indian Rifles, Indian LMG, 2 inch mortar and 81 mortar - what happened to progress there - gilch.

    Indian Army still clears the oozing explosive of 81mm Mortar bombs of WWI types before firing.

    There is never any improvements, no so called iterations etc in the history of OFB and DRDO. What ever you are writing is only a theory.
     
  17. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,703
    Likes Received:
    7,716
    Because I paid money as taxes to set up ECL not VEM Technologies.
     
  18. Absolut_Vodka

    Absolut_Vodka Wg cmdr, crows and trees squadron

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2019
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    3,176
    Screenshot_2019-07-07 AN-761 Electronic Fuzing - snoa217 pdf.png
    It's news to me. I don't know why India can't develop it. Looks like Straight forward circuitry.

    Screenshot_2019-07-07 AN-761 Electronic Fuzing - snoa217 pdf.png
     
    Indx TechStyle likes this.
  19. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,703
    Likes Received:
    7,716
    I do have agenda and show me a man live without an agenda ? However, I assure myself that I have no bad intentions and harmful agenda.

    Rest, I do not care what you think or write.
     
  20. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,703
    Likes Received:
    7,716
    They do not make any thing which is straight. The only seek projects that will cater for their retirements. That way it better.
     

Share This Page