Indian Army Artillery

[nitesh]

Is this product is getting considered or not?

DRDO Tech Focus

 

[khatarnak]

if babus fear so much that CBI will come running after them, why don't they ask DRDO to start development of new artillery or atleast jointly develop it.

Koreans, Singapore, Israel, european countries. everyone have come up with their own artillery, and India neither is importing nor is developing for more than 20 years.

if Govt planning to import Artillery forever, such a decisive piece of weapon on battlefield but still call themselves a potential military power in Asia?

right now even Pakistan would be a in better position when it comes to artillery.

i have read in a science magazine (scope - if i remember) before about 10-12 years that india has tried to develop indigenous gun on the basis of magnet technology as the japanese bullet train is running. + and - pole technology. i never heard anything then after about it.

 

[RPK]

Artillery upgrade still under Bofors shadow

The government may have decided to let Ottavio Quattrocchi off the hook, but the Bofors ghost continues to haunt the armed forces, with several key artillery modernisation programmes put in the limbo due to wrongdoing charges levelled against three major international manufacturers.

While no new artillery guns have been purchased since the Bofors scandal, the latest victim of ‘ban’ are two crucial contracts to procure 155 mm towed artillery guns and 155 mm light ‘mountain’ howitzers to maintain the Army’s conventional edge in the region.

Ironically, out of the major global artillery systems, only the Bofors gun, which has changed ownership several times and is now part of the BAE group, can be bought by the Army no questions asked.

The towed guns are urgently required to match Pakistan, which has recently acquired modern self-propelled ones from the US under the “fight against terror” aid while the light howitzers are required for deployment in the mountains, mainly along the Chinese border where they can be airdropped to inaccessible areas.

In the works for almost a decade, the two contracts have been delayed due to the ban on South African Denel, Israeli Soltam and Singapore Technologies, which are under the scanner for alleged bribery in several different cases.

Trials for the towed guns — the Army requires 400 of them at the earliest — were set to take place later this month but sources say they have now been put off due to the charges levelled against one of the competitors, Singapore Technologies, in connection with the Ordnance Factory Board scam. The only other gun that made it was the Bofors, but to prevent a single vendor situation, the trials have been put off. This has effectively pushed back the acquisition by at least a year.

Another manufacturer that could have made it to the competition, Soltam, was kicked out of the race as it is partially owned by arms agent Sudhir Choudhary, who is wanted by the CBI in several armament procurement cases.


The other contract, for 155 mm light ‘mountain’ howitzers, is also on hold as the only company that met the requirements was again Singapore Technologies. The ST gun, which was under shipment for trials, is awaiting clearances from the Defence Ministry.


There are indications now that the contract may swing in favour of BAE Systems Bofors, which manufactures the M 777 ultra light howitzer, that is being used by the American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. Sources say that the contract is being pursued through the foreign military sales route from the US, which has bought several thousand guns from BAE.

The delays in the two main artillery modernisation programmes come even as neighbouring countries threaten to blunt India’s conventional edge in the region.

 

[bengalraider]

AFAIK Bhim project was indefinitely postponed when Soltam investigation started. Soltam was supposed to collaborate with DRDO to build Bhim.

@Jackprince when did soltam come into the picture , i believe Bhim was based around the G-6 (DENEL)gun placed in aturret on the arjun chassis?

anyways i believe the most prudent solution would be to have JV with the Russians and co-develop the MSTA into a better weapon with a longer range.for a wheeled gun we can co-develop a weapon mounted on the TATRA chassis.we Already have a prototype of a105mm truck mounted gun built by TATA.

 

[bhramos]

i have read in a science magazine (scope - if i remember) before about 10-12 years that india has tried to develop indigenous gun on the basis of magnet technology as the japanese bullet train is running. + and - pole technology. i never heard anything then after about it.

Hey brother, DRDO dreams big, but does less work to make its dream true,
even if it completes it, our Armed Forces reject it.

 

[Vladimir79]

anyways i believe the most prudent solution would be to have JV with the Russians and co-develop the MSTA into a better weapon with a longer range.for a wheeled gun we can co-develop a weapon mounted on the TATRA chassis.we Already have a prototype of a105mm truck mounted gun built by TATA.

The MSTA-SM upgrade is already to be implemented, it just needs funding. It is equal to the latest artillery fielded by NATO.

 

[dineshchaturvedi]

I think it is time to seperate corruption from purchase. It is hitting us more then anyone, if someone has taken money investigate, but blacklisting is not a good idea. The security should come first. By the way everyone is corrupt in India and this cannot be erradicated.

 

[bengalraider]

The MSTA-SM upgrade is already to be implemented, it just needs funding. It is equal to the latest artillery fielded by NATO.

Exactly what i was talking about a joint Russo-Indian initiative can find the funding required to make this gun into a world beater, why only equal NATO let us surpass the NATO guns in terms of performance.

 

[bhramos]

I think it is time to seperate corruption from purchase. It is hitting us more then anyone, if someone has taken money investigate, but blacklisting is not a good idea. The security should come first. By the way everyone is corrupt in India and this cannot be erradicated.

u r correct, but its imposible now, the corruption should have been cutted at grass root level, but now its in the blood like sugar. to separate it takes lot of time and patience.
at present we dont have it.

 

[ppgj]

I think it is time to seperate corruption from purchase. It is hitting us more then anyone, if someone has taken money investigate, but blacklisting is not a good idea. The security should come first. By the way everyone is corrupt in India and this cannot be erradicated.

you are right. in india anybody including the arms lobby, arms agents, literally anyone can accuse of corruption and stop the program. even if it were true, who is caught and punished? corruption can never be erased from anywhere in the world as long as humans are around. security should take prominence.

 

[bsn4u1985]

take a look ................

 

[bsn4u1985]

india also considering this artillary..............

this is AHS krab from poland....

 

[bengalraider]

Bofors signs mou with india

Bofors signs agreement with India
Published: 16 November 2009, 00.00. Last update: 16 November 2009, 00:06
BAE Systems Bofors AB have signed a "memorandum of understanding" with India, writes Karlskoga Courier. Bofors hope in the future to sell a new artillery system to India. A business which is estimated to be worth over two billion U.S. dollars, or just over 14 billion Swedish kronor.
India has tested the new howitzers since the early 2000s from various manufacturers. But how BAE Systems Bofors AB are competitive is unclear as Bofors. The agreement means that Bofors is ready to develop technical cooperation with India.

- India also has things to contribute, "says Christer Henebäck, Communications at BAE Systems Bofors of Karlskoga Courier.

In the 80's India bought 410 Bofors howitzers of the 8.4 billion kronor. This triggered the so-called Bofors scandal in which the company was accused of having bribed to the warrant. But the investigation was shut down by prosecutors.

Source for English translation: Google Translate

original Swedish :http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/artikel_3803303.svd

So that's what the Swedish prime minister's visit was all about, and i was thinking it was about the SAAB gripen, all in all a good movement.

 

[bengalraider]

this is what bofors is offering THe archer

The Archer system is a development of the earlier 155mm towed FH77 L39, of which more than 700 were produced and are in service with the Swedish, Nigerian and Indian armed forces.

 

[wild goose]

Murky Competition for $2B India Howitzer Order May End Soon… Or Not

15-Nov-2009 11:56 EST


India’s $2 billion purchase of about 400 new 155mm self-propelled howitzers is intended to supplement India’s dwindling artillery stocks, while out-ranging and out-shooting Pakistan’s self-propelled M109 155mm guns. It seems simple enough, and BAE Systems Bofors had been competing against systems from Israel’s Soltam and Denel of South Africa.

Unfortunately, the competition has mostly served as a cautionary tale, a years-long affair filled with legal drama, accusations of corruption, and more than one re-start. Meanwhile, India’s stock of operational 155mm howitzers has dwindled to around 200. In 2007, a new RFP was issued, and the competition was expanded. Is there an end in sight? Or a potential winner?

No. India’s Byzantine procurement processes have defeated operational needs yet again, as the competition stalls out one more time, and its existing artillery continues to decay…


Competition Background

US-India Defense and Strategic Affairs reported on the competition in 2004, and noted that this was expected to be one of the first large defense procurement decisions made by India’s new United Progressive Alliance government. The question now is whether a decision can be made within that government’s term(s) of office.

After multiple firing trials and several years, India’s competition managed to end up without any competitors left standing. All 3 competitors (Bofors FH-77B05, Soltam TIG 2002, Denel G5/2000) failed to meet India’s accuracy specifications in 2003 trials, but all three improved their guns to compete again in 2004. There are reports that Soltam fell out of the race after its barrel burst during field trials, while South Africa’s Denel sidelined in 2004 and then eliminated in 2005, after the Indian government accused the manufacturer of corruption in another defence deal.

That created problems on 2 fronts. Denel’s financial situation was deteriorating, and The Times of India reported that the contract may have been critical to the firm’s financial survival. In hindsight, that concern was valid, but Denel managed to survive the loss. A win certainly would have made a significant difference, and might have allowed Denel to delay its major corporate restructuring and associated strategic rethinking for several years.

The other problem involved India’s Ministry of Defence. DID has noted the extreme risk-averse behavior of India’s defense procurement establishment and its effects on contract awards, however, and Defense India notes that when a competition devolves to a single-vendor solution, the practice is often to re-tender.

The resulting dithering was relieved when allegations that Bofors had paid INR 640 million (about $16 million) in bribes to secure the order eliminated the last contender. Bofors Defence AB had been blacklisted by India before, after allegations of kickbacks in a 1987 deal during Rajiv Gandhi’s regime. That scandal had derailed a planned 1,500 gun buy, reducing it to 410 FH-77B howitzers.

Those accused in the Bofors case would eventually have their day in court, however, and win. In April 2007, India re-opened its howitzer competition again, and the passage of time had created a number of changes in the requirements and options.

Meanwhile, the support contract with Bofors for India’s in-service howitzers expired in 2001, and India’s stock is believed to sit at just 200 operational 155/39 caliber guns as of January 2009.

Murky Competition for $2B India Howitzer Order May End Soon… Or Not

 

[bengalraider]

Denel had actually built up a good case with india specific products, the condor (Denel gun based upon TATRA 6x6 chassis)and the "BHIM" (denel supplied the gun for the arjun based platform) . India stood to gain a lot in terms of co-production and ToT with Denel, moreso than with any other competitior system.The company was sidetracked on allegations of corruption in the anti-material rifle contract, hopefully we shall see the deal with Denel go through.

 

[bsn4u1985]

Bhim Self propelled howitzer

 

[bengalraider]

The T5-52 truck mounted gun-howitzer was developed by Denel Land Systems. First prototype of this artillery system was revealed in 2002. It is a South African counterpart to the French Caesar truck-mounted howitzer, developed to meet the potential requirements of India. Development of this artillery system is completed, however there were no confirmed sales.
The T5 was previously dubbed the Condor and was armed with a 155-mm / L45 weapon. The second model, the T5-52, utilizes the G5-2000 towed howitzer top carriage. This artillery system is compatible with standard NATO 155-mm ammunition. Projectiles are fed automatically onto the rammer tray from the magazine. Charge loading is semi-automatic.
Maximum range of fire is 42.5 km with rocket assisted projectile and 55 km with V-LAP or velocity enhanced projectile, developed by Denel. The T5-52 is capable of MRSI or multiple round simultaneous impact firing. It can fire up to six rounds to hit the target simultaneously. This artillery system can fire in 360° arc, however it has to return to the 80° arc to simplify the loading process. Vehicle has a direct firing capability.
The T5-52 has an operating crew of four and additional four crew members to prepare and supply the ammunition. A crew of four can bring the gun into or out of action within 60 seconds.
The T5-52 is mounted on the modified 8x8 Tatra T815 WN truck chassis. This truck is manufactured in India under license. Vehicle is powered by a turbocharged diesel engine, developing 355 hp. To provide a more stable firing platform, this truck has three stabilizer blades. Cab of this artillery system is unarmored, however protection against 5.56-mm rounds can be fitted as an option.

Read more about DENEL's product line and upcoming products in the attached PDF
The condor was supposed to be built on the TATRA chassis fabricated in India by BEML.

 

[bsn4u1985]

the picture you have shown that is not of G5 howitzer...this is from from the israeli firm soltam systems...the name of howitzer is ATMOS 2000(Autonomous Truck MOunted howitzer System) is a 155 mm/52 calibre self-propelled (SP) artillery system manufactured by Soltam Systems.

 

[bengalraider]

the picture you have shown that is not of G5 howitzer...this is from from the israeli firm soltam systems...the name of howitzer is ATMOS 2000(Autonomous Truck MOunted howitzer System) is a 155 mm/52 calibre self-propelled (SP) artillery system manufactured by Soltam Systems.

That sir is the Denel T5-52 Condor the pictures below are of the ATMOS 2000
They both look pretty much the same, but the denel has a flatter looking gun while the Israeli system has a boxy gun

Read: ATMOS 2000 155-mm Self-Propelled Howitzer | Military-Today.com
also abut the condor: http://www.military-today.com/artillery/t5_52.htm