Indian Aircraft carriers are sitting ducks against most of today's weapons

[sabari]

Your government are always busy answering questions,so your government has spent much more time/energy anwsering questions than developing india.

Yes your government has the right to kill more then 1000 peoples in Tia numen squre .but you can even ask questions your government . no media freedom .even if you speak against your government you will be in jail

 

[badguy2000]

Yes your government has the right to kill more then 1000 peoples in Tia numen squre .but you can even ask questions your government . no media freedom .even if you speak against your government you will be in jail

That is the picture of the US Shuttle.

The Soviet Shuttle was carried over an Antonov-255, and had two tails fins.

thanks for your correction....hat-off for soviet feat!

 

[badguy2000]

Yes your government has the right to kill more then 1000 peoples in Tia numen squre .but you can even ask questions your government . no media freedom .even if you speak against your government you will be in jail

Your questioning is meaningless if questioning can not solve the problems.
YOur government spends too much one anwsering questions and spend too little solving probelms such as poverty-lifting,infrastructure-building,corruption-fighting and medical-care-covering.

what makes india lag behind CHina mostly is that India government is full of politicians who are good at answering the questions from people but are poor at solving the problems preventing the develpment of the country.

 

[tsunami]

@jaci_zenfone2 ......sir , you are much more well-read and informed than myself on this topic , it is not my area .....came across this thread and it is interesting ...allow me to ask a layman's question

i have read your post and it is superb . now consider the following adaptations - improved radar detection systems - not an impossibility , im sure you'll agree ?
in that case , that with improved radar asd satellite detection systems consider the fallowing scenarios -

even given the carriers defence system , elaborate though it may be , isnt it probable , not talking possibility , but rather probability to be hit by a large number of hypersonic missiles launched simultaneously to overwhelm the ac's missile defence system which is still quite a way off from perfection and viability ?

the carrier by your estimation moves at about 50 kph or knots and i think even by yesterday's technology, that could easily be hit by the missile systems of even yesterday ...let alone today hypersonic missiles with guidance systems

so an ac is therefore , from the missile launchers point of view a static piece of land relative to the speed of the attacking missile and therefore a " sitting duck "

the defence systems albeit being very sophisticated will not be able to cope with a massive attack of equally sophisticated hypersonic missiles

an ac's role is therefore restricted to policing operations where there is no equally strong adversary eg clearing the seas of pirates as the other person suggested or even peacetime rescue operations where say a large number of persons need to be rescued from another region where there is no opposing force of equal technological level and a relatively slow -moving ( slow relative to the hypersonic speeds ) carrier group has sufficient armaments and technology to keep away any less professional intruders eg pirates and tinpot dictators forces....eg falklands war where the level of technologies comparative was greatly unbalanced and unequal , then an ac group was possible as the Argentinians did not have sophisticated hypersonic missile systems in those days .,

in an all-out war with an equally capable adversary however if attacked by hypersonic missiles and one or two of them get through the defenses the damage to the carrier and the resources on its platform will be horrific and enough to make the whole concept of an ac in war unviable from the cost and lost lives point of view

regards,
Ref;
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Well DF-21 might be a threat but not a game changer for sure.

If a missile which can be only launched from as of now and have a range 2000 KM is dangerous to AC. Then don't you think a Submarine launched stealthy supersonic missile with a grate maneuvering capabilities and launched within the 120 KM range in a salvo of 12-16 missile will be much more dangerous.

That's why west don't accept DF-21 as a game changer. But on the other hand all their air defense system systems are designed considering BRAHMOS!!

 

[Ancient Indian]

thanks for your correction....hat-off for soviet feat!
View attachment 5714

The dreams of glory. There goes a dragon story. . . . .

Nice artists you got there.

 

[Illusive]

Most of the case doesn't take ASAT and cyberwarfare into account which would be the first wave, EW, next is checkmate. Without this cover, IAC won't venture near threat.

 

[badguy2000]

Well DF-21 might be a threat but not a game changer for sure.

If a missile which can be only launched from as of now and have a range 2000 KM is dangerous to AC. Then don't you think a Submarine launched stealthy supersonic missile with a grate maneuvering capabilities and launched within the 120 KM range in a salvo of 12-16 missile will be much more dangerous.

That's why west don't accept DF-21 as a game changer. But on the other hand all their air defense system systems are designed considering BRAHMOS!!

Neither DF21 nor Brahmos is game changer.

1.the game changer is the combination of enormous satelites systems such as GPS and Beidou II, UAVs such like "global hawk" or "village hawk", modern subs and surface fleets and modern AWAC...etc.
the missles such as DF21 is the last sector of the hunting-killing chain.

2. such a deployment of the whole hunting&killing Chain might costs 100 billion USD or more.
as I know, any sector of the killing chain( Beidou II, UAVs such like "village hawk", modern subs like 039A or 094，surface fleets such as 052D/054/055,modern AWAC like KJ2000/KJ200) cost billions of USD.

2.only the countries withmassive industry/decent R&D base and vigorous economy can afford so many assets.
now,
only USA/China/EU can afford the deployment of so many assets economically.
Russia might have the tech,but could not afford it economically.
EU has the tech and enough fund,but Europeans would invest on saving the ass of Greece,rather than invest on such assets such as Galileo satellite guide system.
India has neither enough money nore tech to deploy such a massive project.
Thus ,the only players the in game might be USA and CHina.

 

[tsunami]

Neither DF21 nor Brahmos is game changer.

1.the game changer is the combination of enormous satelites systems such as GPS and Beidou II, UAVs such like "global hawk" or "village hawk", modern subs and surface fleets and modern AWAC...etc.
the missles such as DF21 is the last sector of the hunting-killing chain.

2. such a deployment of the whole hunting&killing Chain might costs 100 billion USD or more.
as I know, any sector of the killing chain( Beidou II, UAVs such like "village hawk", modern subs like 039A or 094，surface fleets such as 052D/054/055,modern AWAC like KJ2000/KJ200) cost billions of USD.

2.only the countries withmassive industry/decent R&D base and vigorous economy can afford so many assets.
now,
only USA/China/EU can afford the deployment of so many assets economically.
Russia might have the tech,but could not afford it economically.
EU has the tech and enough fund,but Europeans would invest on saving the ass of Greece,rather than invest on such assets such as Galileo satellite guide system.
India has neither enough money nore tech to deploy such a massive project.
Thus ,the only players the in game might be USA and CHina.

Unfortunately USA and EU both are not investing in any basaltic missile which can hit moving AC.

They are the one who constantly go to wars, not like PRC who never seen a naval battle in last 70 years and even more. They make weapons for reality. PRC make for tall claims.

And as far as UAV, Modern Subs, Surface fleets, satellites, hypersonic vehicle and modern AWACS is concerned India is also investing in these things, may be at slower speed but we are doing.

 

[sabari]

Df21 may or may not be a game changer but brahmos . specifically IOC because
1 .irnss will be completed in 2017
2 .irnss use 7 satilight for tracking 7 is batter than 3
3 . Indian peninsula is suitable for surveillance of ior using UAV
4. similar in case of Andaman
5 .which gives good kill chain than Chinese
6. in case of navelblocked by india near Andaman you will be forced to fight Andaman command . bramhos will be the most deadly weapon which Chinese will face . Andaman is a natural sinkable carrier
7. India'aircraft carrier are only the second line of defense. To protect main land

 

[sabari]

Your questioning is meaningless if questioning can not solve the problems.
YOur government spends too much one anwsering questions and spend too little solving probelms such as poverty-lifting,infrastructure-building,corruption-fighting and medical-care-covering.

what makes india lag behind CHina mostly is that India government is full of politicians who are good at answering the questions from people but are poor at solving the problems preventing the develpment of the country.

1. learn the meaning of people libration
2. slave doesn't have rights to ask questions .who are u
3. what is the meaning of being citizen of country if I don't have right to speak,select my leaders,
4. Rather I would prefer a poor country with all those rights
5. constructing road without asking people openean might save time and might make people traveling by that road happy but not the people who lost there land
Who have had not given the proper compensation .they can't even protest
This Is why you need right to question your government my friend

 

[no smoking]

Df21 may or may not be a game changer but brahmos . specifically IOC because
1 .irnss will be completed in 2017
2 .irnss use 7 satilight for tracking 7 is batter than 3
3 . Indian peninsula is suitable for surveillance of ior using UAV
4. similar in case of Andaman
5 .which gives good kill chain than Chinese

Brahmos is a good weapon but not a game change, neither does DF21D. Russians have the similar weapon in their hands, did you see they bragging it as an end-all weapon?
First, there is lot of ways to defend such kind of weapon;
Second, this kind of weapon has it own limit, such as range, efficiency, etc;
Third, this kind of weapon heavily depends on the supporting system, countries like USA and China have plenty of methods to strike this system.

6. in case of navelblocked by india near Andaman you will be forced to fight Andaman command . bramhos will be the most deadly weapon which Chinese will face . Andaman is a natural sinkable carrier

Wrong, if India tries to block Chinese near Andaman, guess who will cry first? Yes, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan, 70% of their oil and cargo have to go through there while it is only 25% for China. This will bring US navy in.

Even if India successfully block the sea lane, Chinese won't come to fight around Andaman. Instead they will send their submarines and fighters to Pakistan to block India's sea lane from there.

At the mean time, China just increase her oil import from Russia and South America.

 

[Adioz]

in 1971 war didnt soviet subs surfaced to show force projection to the US and in a way deterred any US military intervention.
Am not saying subs can replace CBGs but do we really need 2-3 CBGs?

that's exactly what I was saying!

1.A navy is a little different from other branches of the armed forces. It has the freedom to maneuver in international waters (and very close to the territorial waters of a nation) without causing escalation to war stage. 2.Even during war, a naval force can maneuver to cause an enemy to react as anticipated.
3.Aircraft Carriers can enable a naval force to maneuver with impunity (if the other side lacks a carrier) as it has a solid air cover.
4.Submarines are not very useful in maneuver. The prime reason a submarine is feared is because you never know where it is. If a submarine has to scare an opposing force to maneuver in an anticipated manner, it has to show its presence, thus getting rid of that critical advantage. Even if the submarine dives quickly afterwards, a strong A.S.W. (Anti-submarine warfare) force can root out the submarine.
4. The area denial by a submarine works by:-

(A)the sub surfacing to show its face: may work in peacetime, gets the sub fried in wartime.
(B)the sub sinking a naval vessel: may work in wartime but not in peacetime.​

The U.S. was deterred as they did not wish to sink Soviet subs and start a war over India-Pakistan games.

 

[Adioz]

Wrong, if India tries to block Chinese near Andaman, guess who will cry first? Yes, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan, 70% of their oil and cargo have to go through there while it is only 25% for China. This will bring US navy in.

Even if India successfully block the sea lane, Chinese won't come to fight around Andaman. Instead they will send their submarines and fighters to Pakistan to block India's sea lane from there.

At the mean time, China just increase her oil import from Russia and South America.

China cannot block Indian oil until it blockades a choke-point. The only choke-point is the Persian gulf, which China can never block. If they try doing this near Pakistan, it will simply push the SLOCs south since it is not a choke-point. Andaman (Malacca straits) is a choke-point for China but not for Japan or South Korea as they can make their oil travel through Java sea, then Celebes sea and then straight to them without using the Chinese seas at all. The Chinese cannot emulate that as their cargo would then pass through territory practically controlled by its adversaries. South American oil can also be intercepted by U.S.N. with relative ease.

 

[Adioz]

Most of the case doesn't take ASAT and cyberwarfare into account which would be the first wave, EW, next is checkmate. Without this cover, IAC won't venture near threat.

Indian navy is not one to take Chinese Navy lightly.They are moving at a pace at which they can. These days, I guess it easier for the Navy to buy aircraft carriers than make our political leaders understand the threat of cyberwarfare.

I wonder whether those of our political masters who have been put in charge of the defence of the country can distinguish a mortar from a motor; a gun from a howitzer; a guerrilla from a gorilla, although a great many resemble the latter.

-Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw​

​

 

[Victor3]

1. learn the meaning of people libration
2. slave doesn't have rights to ask questions .who are u
3. what is the meaning of being citizen of country if I don't have right to speak,select my leaders,
4. Rather I would prefer a poor country with all those rights
5. constructing road without asking people openean might save time and might make people traveling by that road happy but not the people who lost there land
Who have had not given the proper compensation .they can't even protest
This Is why you need right to question your government my friend

i dont know if matter so much if the central government ask me how to do politics. what matter is that that government do something. i dont know nothing (as a regular person) about macroeconomics so my point of view is less important. only value of democracy comes from the fact that all is based on big numbers theory. i mean lot of eyes who watch the government less chances that the government miss something.

 

[badguy2000]

Df21 may or may not be a game changer but brahmos . specifically IOC because
1 .irnss will be completed in 2017
2 .irnss use 7 satilight for tracking 7 is batter than 3
3 . Indian peninsula is suitable for surveillance of ior using UAV
4. similar in case of Andaman
5 .which gives good kill chain than Chinese
6. in case of navelblocked by india near Andaman you will be forced to fight Andaman command . bramhos will be the most deadly weapon which Chinese will face . Andaman is a natural sinkable carrier
7. India'aircraft carrier are only the second line of defense. To protect main land

as for "navelblocked by india",pls check the range of DF21/DF21D..
if DF21/DF21D can make the red/yellow areas "No-go Zone" of USA AC group, it will be one to India navy.

 

[tsunami]

So DF-21D can sink submarines ??

 

[badguy2000]

1. learn the meaning of people libration
2. slave doesn't have rights to ask questions .who are u
3. what is the meaning of being citizen of country if I don't have right to speak,select my leaders,
4. Rather I would prefer a poor country with all those rights
5. constructing road without asking people openean might save time and might make people traveling by that road happy but not the people who lost there land
Who have had not given the proper compensation .they can't even protest
This Is why you need right to question your government my friend

well,

1. ordinary Chinese people have much more chance to travel abroad than ordinary indians,because ordinary CHinese are richer and can afford it.

2. When most Ordianry Chinese toursts travel abroad, they usually wow:
" what a good feeling it is to be treated as "Sir" or "Madam" here.....it is so nice to afford such a trip!".
"when I was a kid,I once was as poor as locals.....CCP seems not as bad as I thought"
"It seems not as safe as China...I should not have walked in street at night"
"Why are the street so old? haven't they build any new buildings?"

3. the above feeling in fact is a complex of superiorty in front of native poeple,which roots from economy superioty,especially when local people always treat us as "sir/madam"...
My wife still misses so much the feeling of "madam".

4. My wife and I ourselves indeed felt such a complex of superiority,while we travelled to southeast Asia.

5. Not long ago, CHinese are usually the one who admire rich west/Japanese tourists and treat them as "sir/madam"

6. I don't think ordinary Indians can understand more what is "happniess" to ornidary people than CHinese ordiary people ,who admired the rich foreign tourist in CHina and now can afford chances that they as tourists are treated by forieners as "sir/madam".



7. I hope that Indian people don't teach CHinese how to make CHines happy,until ordinary Indias were to afford chance that they be treated as "sir/madam" as tourists outside India.

 

[badguy2000]

So DF-21D can sink submarines ??

1.subs need bases,needn't they?
2.India can hardly repair subs,can't it?
3.if India were to block China sealane, it would be already a war. Thus, why can't PLA directly strke india homeland?

 

[badguy2000]

1.A navy is a little different from other branches of the armed forces. It has the freedom to maneuver in international waters (and very close to the territorial waters of a nation) without causing escalation to war stage. 2.Even during war, a naval force can maneuver to cause an enemy to react as anticipated.
3.Aircraft Carriers can enable a naval force to maneuver with impunity (if the other side lacks a carrier) as it has a solid air cover.
4.Submarines are not very useful in maneuver. The prime reason a submarine is feared is because you never know where it is. If a submarine has to scare an opposing force to maneuver in an anticipated manner, it has to show its presence, thus getting rid of that critical advantage. Even if the submarine dives quickly afterwards, a strong A.S.W. (Anti-submarine warfare) force can root out the submarine.
4. The area denial by a submarine works by:-

(A)the sub surfacing to show its face: may work in peacetime, gets the sub fried in wartime.
(B)the sub sinking a naval vessel: may work in wartime but not in peacetime.​

The U.S. was deterred as they did not wish to sink Soviet subs and start a war over India-Pakistan games.

well,
1. 3 AC so so is enough for CHina to police its interest overseas ,including protects its sealane from bothers from regions powers like India.

2.If 3 AC groups were not enought to prevent the bothering, then it would be time to show-hands,instead of police mission.

3.nuke subs/large birds say B2/ICBM are showing-hands weapons, instead of AC.