Indian Air Force admits can’t fight China, Pak at the same time

[Bahamut]

^^ AMCA

FGFA was supposed to be inducted before 2020 according to the original plan so that its tech can be used in AMCA but it was also a failure both from Russian and our side.

Now i hope this project goes through and probably a prototype by 2020 for our specs ,Russia also offered a reduced price recently.

FGFA was suppose to started test before 2020 and enter Low Rate Production by 2020.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

If China and pak are fighting India it will not be India alone and it has potential to be a world war. Best thing would be to throw out
No first use policy and stop all Indian water flowing into pak.why publicize things to get funding?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Superdefender]

If China and pak are fighting India it will not be India alone and it has potential to be a world war. Best thing would be to throw out
No first use policy and stop all Indian water flowing into pak.why publicize things to get funding?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Both these nations know that. That's why they will never attack...

 

[Blackwater]

big baesti of 50 billion dallar defence budget

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

^^ AMCA

FGFA was supposed to be inducted before 2020 according to the original plan so that its tech can be used in AMCA but it was also a failure both from Russian and our side.

Now i hope this project goes through and probably a prototype by 2020 for our specs ,Russia also offered a reduced price recently.

Someone at the higher up level in the IAF needs to be fired and humiliated publicly to set an example like we did for Avinash Chander. They have to understand that they can't adorn high posts in government organizations with allocations of billions of dollars without accountability. If you falter, if you fail to deliver on time, you will pay a heavy price. That Chander guy was fired for the same reason. He might have delivered great missiles in the past, but he missed a lot of deadlines of current R&D projects and was quite callous about it. He probably thought "I'm the missile man of India, they can't fire me". Then he got fired. A JNU like callous and anarchic work culture has crept into the top leadership of a lot of our institutions. Missing deadlines for projects that are critical for national security is considered as a small offence.

Stalin used to imprison his scientists in large 'invention prisons' where they used to conduct R&D for new weapon systems. If they missed the deadline, he would shoot them. Now, obviously, we don't want to take inspiration from such barbarian civilizations but those involved in national security should not take advantage of our liberal attitude either. We definitely need a better work ethic.

There is an alternative work ethic which isn't barbarian and which we should stand behind. Every time a new bridge was constructed in ancient Greece, the monarch made the engineer stand under it as a heavy horse chariot passed over the bridge before inaugurating it for public use. So, if there was a defect in the bridge and it gave way, it would be the engineer who made it would face the consequences. This was made to induce a spirit of quality control and of course accountability. It made sure people didn't cut corners, as their own life would be on the line. Unfortunately, the exact opposite is being done in India. There is absolutely ZERO accountability to anyone who deals with issues of national interest. This needs to change.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

At first, kudos to our presstitute media who think that it was needed to be asked whether India alone can tackle China and pakiland or not.

Now, let us leave hate for congis for a time and take a look at their defense policies.


Congress made India biggest arms buyer in their time to survive in worst war scenario meanwhile BJP is preparing for most likely scenario.


And here BJP is correct because it's very low possibility if China militarily intervenes in an Indo paki war.

As situation aren't worst, India must prepare for likely challenges till it becomes a mature major force like US, Russia China.

Navy will reach that level in 5-6 years and is preparing for 4-5 carriers and 40-50 subs in next 20 years. IA has got correct path and now more than war ready. They may take 10 or more years.

Government wants IAF on same path.

Even many companies and state governments are helping them by investment in aerospace sector hugely but IAF thinks war is tomorrow and they will have to fight alone.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Government wants IAF on same path.

Even many companies and state governments are helping them by investment in aerospace sector hugely but IAF thinks war is tomorrow and they will have to fight alone.

What is IAF? Italian airforce? Israeli airforce? Iran airforce? because they sure as hell aren't behaving like they are Indian airforce. They are behaving as if they are an independent organization. Doing daalali on behalf of foreign defense agents is what they are good at. The biggest role that the IAF has played historically is not that of a warrior force but that of a corporate weapons consultant of foreign equipment. DRDO invents something new and goes to the IAF "Sirjee, jara yeh weapon test karke feedback dedo". IAF tests the weapon and gives feedback "We need to buy 100 squadrons of western planes".

DRDO : HAL Marut looge?
IAF : Nahi lenge!
DRDO : Tejas loge?
IAF : Nahi lenge!
DRDO : AMCA loge?
IAF : Nahi lenge!

When the public asks why there is no domestic aviation industry even 70 years after independence, IAF says "DRDO never approached us with any prototypes"

Are humko chutiya samajh rakha hai kya!

 

[smestarz]

Israel is one of India's key strategic partners and Israel always wanted to bomb paki nuke reactors in the beginning itself... Israel may send its pilots to fight for India bcuz previously paki pilots flew combat against Israel

Israel will not do this, but they might launch a covert attack themselves and inform India "we were not there"

 

[smestarz]

Simply not possible. Unless India wants its own oil supply blocked.

The entire talk of Pakistani blockade is hot air. You can at best sink PN ships.

There are few things which you do not realise.
A) we can sink PN ships with our subs , Carrier battle group,
B) any supply ship that has to supply pakistan has to dock at port in pakistan, or arrangements have to be done to offload the goods from the vessel, any vessel bringing in say 20,000 tons of supply is neither faster than aircraft or it cannot hide.. So on what ground are you saying that wcannot enforce naval blockade on pakistan? the only possible supply route will be say West from Central asian republics or Afghanistan or from China. If CBG cannot enforce a blockade then one of the important role of CBG is lost, so whats the point in investing so much in CBG, as it has to ensure 500 kms radius of TOTAL ENFORCEMENT OF CONTROL Nothing floats, flies or walks without the CBG allowing it to
Or you thinking that when the war starts the CBG should be anchored at the port?

 

[garg_bharat]

If China and pak are fighting India it will not be India alone and it has potential to be a world war. Best thing would be to throw out
No first use policy and stop all Indian water flowing into pak.why publicize things to get funding?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Israel will not do this, but they might launch a covert attack themselves and inform India "we were not there"

Not necessary that there will be a "world war" as a result of south asian war. India can neither expect nor plan for a world war. @LETHALFORCE is correct that a two front war will quickly change India's nuclear stance.

Israel will not fight on India's behalf. Pakistan is still in Uncle's sphere of influence. If this change (when USA and China are real blood enemies), then maybe.

 

[Bornubus]

Someone at the higher up level in the IAF needs to be fired and humiliated publicly to set an example like we did for Avinash Chander. They have to understand that they can't adorn high posts in government organizations with allocations of billions of dollars without accountability. If you falter, if you fail to deliver on time, you will pay a heavy price. That Chander guy was fired for the same reason. He might have delivered great missiles in the past, but he missed a lot of deadlines of current R&D projects and was quite callous about it. He probably thought "I'm the missile man of India, they can't fire me". Then he got fired. A JNU like callous and anarchic work culture has crept into the top leadership of a lot of our institutions. Missing deadlines for projects that are critical for national security is considered as a small offence.

Stalin used to imprison his scientists in large 'invention prisons' where they used to conduct R&D for new weapon systems. If they missed the deadline, he would shoot them. Now, obviously, we don't want to take inspiration from such barbarian civilizations but those involved in national security should not take advantage of our liberal attitude either. We definitely need a better work ethic.

There is an alternative work ethic which isn't barbarian and which we should stand behind. Every time a new bridge was constructed in ancient Greece, the monarch made the engineer stand under it as a heavy horse chariot passed over the bridge before inaugurating it for public use. So, if there was a defect in the bridge and it gave way, it would be the engineer who made it would face the consequences. This was made to induce a spirit of quality control and of course accountability. It made sure people didn't cut corners, as their own life would be on the line. Unfortunately, the exact opposite is being done in India. There is absolutely ZERO accountability to anyone who deals with issues of national interest. This needs to change.

What is IAF? Italian airforce? Israeli airforce? Iran airforce? because they sure as hell aren't behaving like they are Indian airforce. They are behaving as if they are an independent organization. Doing daalali on behalf of foreign defense agents is what they are good at. The biggest role that the IAF has played historically is not that of a warrior force but that of a corporate weapons consultant of foreign equipment. DRDO invents something new and goes to the IAF "Sirjee, jara yeh weapon test karke feedback dedo". IAF tests the weapon and gives feedback "We need to buy 100 squadrons of western planes".

DRDO : HAL Marut looge?
IAF : Nahi lenge!
DRDO : Tejas loge?
IAF : Nahi lenge!
DRDO : AMCA loge?
IAF : Nahi lenge!

When the public asks why there is no domestic aviation industry even 70 years after independence, IAF says "DRDO never approached us with any prototypes"

Are humko chutiya samajh rakha hai kya!

When it comes to Defense acquisitions BJP and Congi are same.

A funny example of pathetic defense procurement was seen during Siachen op.

When India was shortlisting, inviting tenders for High altitude gear Paki Army already bought the gear and was about to annex Siachen

 

[garg_bharat]

When it comes to Defense acquisitions BJP and Congi are same.

A funny example of pathetic defense procurement was seen during Siachen op.

When India was shortlisting, inviting tenders for High altitude gear Paki Army already bought the gear and was about to annex Siachen

How long was BJP in power before Siachen??

Your example is bad.

Please note that 99.9% of government is bureaucrats (who are parasites till death), not politicians (who get kicked every 5 years or earlier).

You kick the bureaucrats every five years, then you see the speed in acquisitions.

 

[Bornubus]

How long was BJP in power before Siachen??

Your example is bad.

Please note that 99.9% of government is bureaucrats (who are parasites till death), not politicians (who get kicked every 5 years or earlier).

You kick the bureaucrats every five years, then you see the speed in acquisitions.

How long was BJP in power before Siachen??

Your example is bad.

Please note that 99.9% of government is bureaucrats (who are parasites till death), not politicians (who get kicked every 5 years or earlier).

You kick the bureaucrats every five years, then you see the speed in acquisitions.

I quoted BJP as far as defense acquisition is concerned not because of Siachen incident.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

When it comes to Defense acquisitions BJP and Congi are same.

A funny example of pathetic defense procurement was seen during Siachen op.

When India was shortlisting, inviting tenders for High altitude gear Paki Army already bought the gear and was about to annex Siachen

The government as an institution, regardless of which party is in power, has certain handicaps and realities that it has to work with, which has a bearing on their policies. Therefore I agree with your assessment that some policies of different governments might appear to overlap. But one cannot accord unlimited blame to the boogeyman called 'government' and give a blank cheque to the military (or any other specialized institution).

Any government in power, after all, merely manages whatever is available, to arrive at the best possible solution. If the R&D and military industrial complex came up with good quality equipment, then the government could go for mass production, if they don't then we have to beg to foreign providers. After all, the government is not a foreign entity, they are a representative of the people, chosen to negotiate the realities of running the nation on our behalf. If we want them to negotiate hard, we must at least give them something to negotiate with. If R&D doesn't make good prototypes, if OFB doesn't adhere to deadlines, if the IAF refuses to use indigenous equipment then these are institutional failures, for which the 'government' can't be blamed.

The reason we have separate departments for various specialized fields (R&D, manufacturing, intelligence, warfare, education, urban development, transport) is so that each of them can be given a mission and held accountable to its time-bound delivery. It allows us to objectively evaluate the efficiency of institutions according to the results that they deliver (or don't deliver). Now, if the IAF repeatedly and deliberately keeps changing their requirements in order to throw the DRDO's timetable off balance, should the IAF as an institution not be blamed?

I think we are concentrating too much on governments and letting our non-performing institutions go scott free because we look at our military with a sense of halo. We consider them too sacrosanct to be deserving of any critical evaluation. So they take advantage of us, and we make a scapegoat out of the institution called 'government', forgetting that the government IS us. The IAF has managed to use subterfuge to fool us civilians into blaming ourselves by proxy of blaming 'the government' while the IAF as an organization remains blameless. It is in our interest to rise above party lines and stand together as Indian citizens to ask tough questions to our institutions (including educational institutions like JNU) instead of allowing those institutions to indignantly shrug off blame back onto a boogeyman called 'government'. The institutions exist because of us, not the other way round. Governments are merely negotiators between various institutions, it is the institutions that must take the blame for long term rot.

By putting the blame on governments, you are falling into the IAF trap. The IAF will mend their ways only when they see that public opinion has turned against them and that the people are seeing through their excuses.

By the way, since you mentioned high altitude gear, it reminded me of a news I read last month which claimed that DRDO has made a breakthrough in the manufacture of high altitude gear just a few weeks ago! 4 decades after Siachen episode! What were they doing for 4 decades? Even this is an example of institutional failure of our R&D departments. If the DRDO scientists don't manage to make even basic clothing for soldiers, can we really blame 'governments'? I mean, what do we expect? is Rahul Gandhi, or Modi or Kejriwal going to manufacture defense equipment in their backyard? The reason governments allocate funds to R&D departments is because they are supposed to be subject matter experts. It is their job to come up with solutions on time. How can we blame successive governments for even such basic failures? These are institutional failures.

In order for the "chalta hai" attitude to be removed from our premier institutions, it must first be removed from our own minds first. Let's not allow our institutions to hoodwink us.

 

[Bornubus]

The government as an institution, regardless of which party is in power, has certain handicaps and realities that it has to work with, which has a bearing on their policies. Therefore I agree with your assessment that some policies of different governments might appear to overlap. But one cannot accord unlimited blame to the boogeyman called 'government' and give a blank cheque to the military (or any other specialized institution).

Any government in power, after all, merely manages whatever is available, to arrive at the best possible solution. If the R&D and military industrial complex came up with good quality equipment, then the government could go for mass production, if they don't then we have to beg to foreign providers. After all, the government is not a foreign entity, they are a representative of the people, chosen to negotiate the realities of running the nation on our behalf. If we want them to negotiate hard, we must at least give them something to negotiate with. If R&D doesn't make good prototypes, if OFB doesn't adhere to deadlines, if the IAF refuses to use indigenous equipment then these are institutional failures, for which the 'government' can't be blamed.

The reason we have separate departments for various specialized fields (R&D, manufacturing, intelligence, warfare, education, urban development, transport) is so that each of them can be given a mission and held accountable to its time-bound delivery. It allows us to objectively evaluate the efficiency of institutions according to the results that they deliver (or don't deliver). Now, if the IAF repeatedly and deliberately keeps changing their requirements in order to throw the DRDO's timetable off balance, should the IAF as an institution not be blamed?

I think we are concentrating too much on governments and letting our non-performing institutions go scott free because we look at our military with a sense of halo. We consider them too sacrosanct to be deserving of any critical evaluation. So they take advantage of us, and we make a scapegoat out of the institution called 'government', forgetting that the government IS us. The IAF has managed to use subterfuge to fool us civilians into blaming ourselves by proxy of blaming 'the government' while the IAF as an organization remains blameless. It is in our interest to rise above party lines and stand together as Indian citizens to ask tough questions to our institutions (including educational institutions like JNU) instead of allowing those institutions to indignantly shrug off blame back onto a boogeyman called 'government'. The institutions exist because of us, not the other way round. Governments are merely negotiators between various institutions, it is the institutions that must take the blame for long term rot.

By putting the blame on governments, you are falling into the IAF trap. The IAF will mend their ways only when they see that public opinion has turned against them and that the people are seeing through their excuses.

By the way, since you mentioned high altitude gear, it reminded me of a news I read last month which claimed that DRDO has made a breakthrough in the manufacture of high altitude gear just a few weeks ago! 4 decades after Siachen episode! What were they doing for 4 decades? Even this is an example of institutional failure of our R&D departments. If the DRDO scientists don't manage to make even basic clothing for soldiers, can we really blame 'governments'? I mean, what do we expect? is Rahul Gandhi, or Modi or Kejriwal going to manufacture defense equipment in their backyard? The reason governments allocate funds to R&D departments is because they are supposed to be subject matter experts. It is their job to come up with solutions on time. How can we blame successive governments for even such basic failures? These are institutional failures.

In order for the "chalta hai" attitude to be removed from our premier institutions, it must first be removed from our own minds first. Let's not allow our institutions to hoodwink us.

+5 you say it all.


................................

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

IAF thinks war is tomorrow and they will have to fight alone.

When I was in primary school, I used to have a fantasy that one day some terrorists will attack my school and I will alone defeat all of them and save all my classmates and teachers and become their favorite. It was the time Shaktimaan was very popular, so many kids those days had such fantasies. It is the same fantasy that the IAF harbors. Maybe even they are influenced by Shaktimaan logic. The IAF cooks up extraordinarily improbable threat scenarios and builds their entire hypothesis on that assumption of worst case scenario. Pakistan, China, Nepal, Bhutan, Maldives, everyone will attack us, we have insufficient planes. We need at least a million squadrons to win a war against all these nations combined but government is not giving us money.

The IAF needs a dressing down. Our air assets should be split into four groups :

• Air superiority group (stealth, electronic warfare, air domination)
• Aerospace warfare group (exo-atmospheric assets like satellites, high altitude surveillance planes, strategic bombers)
• Deep strike group (fighter-bomber aircraft, anti-radiation missile carriers)
• Close air-support group (short range interceptors, multirole ground attack aircraft)

Give the first one to IAF, give the second one to a separate Space Command, third one to Navy, fourth one to Army. There is no need for IAF to have all the monopoly on these expensive toys which they are mismanaging.

 

[garg_bharat]

I quoted BJP as far as defense acquisition is concerned not because of Siachen incident.

I can tell you that BJP in just few years of power has done more than 50+ years of Congress rule.

It is not necessary that everything is in public domain.

The decision to test nukes in 1998 was a watershed event which many have not understood. India was at a severe disadvantage as Pakistan was rumored to receive fully built Chinese warheads, while India lacked any reliable warheads. So India could not maintain "deterrence" as it expected and was always subject to foreign blackmail.

BJP not only tested, but also built an inventory of missiles and warheads which could actually be used.

This is just an example.

 

[garg_bharat]

The acquisitions in BJP rule are much faster than Congress rule. However everybody has to respect procedures. India afterall is a democracy, and politicians are answerable.

 

[Superdefender]

The acquisitions in BJP rule are much faster than Congress rule. However everybody has to respect procedures. India afterall is a democracy, and politicians are answerable.

Waiting for the day when we have our own Pentagon!

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Waiting for the day when we have our own Pentagon!

+1 to that recommendation. This recommendation was made for the first time almost 3 decades ago by K. Subrahmanyam but we still haven't come around to accomplishing that. He recommended that the post of the NSA must have cabinet approval. The NSA must be allowed to have his own office (basically Desi pentagon), he must have his own funds, and autonomy. This office must be free from political interference and must be filled with military experts and strategists. It must come up with security related papers for the NSA to consider and implement. It was first recommended to meet once every month, then increase the frequency to once a week.

3 decades later, we have done nothing. Just created the post of NSA, no Desi pentagon in sight but we recently reached a consensus about building a second parliament building.

The misfortune of India is that the political class serves only itself and K. Subrahmanyam spells it out very clearly in this interview :