India's Interest in Lockheed F-35 Fighter

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If we can get a fifth generation plane before PAK-FA it might give us leverage in the PAK-FA deal. Russians have said they are going to export PAK-FA without asking what India feels about it, even though India is funding 1/2 the development costs. F-35 will be the deadliest fighter plane in the world and will definetly give India an edge against the Asian rivals. And tell Lockheed Martin to stop F-16 delivery to Pak and any support of parts etc... or no deal.
 

sayareakd

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we wont show you our color of money, unless you give us some for free, because by giving this lollipop, uncle is going to F*** up Russian 5G programe and our AMCA. We wont be getting any source code, or complete TOT,


I think F35 is horse not worth betting (for us).
 

Dovah

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If we can get a fifth generation plane before PAK-FA it might give us leverage in the PAK-FA deal. Russians have said they are going to export PAK-FA without asking what India feels about it, even though India is funding 1/2 the development costs. F-35 will be the deadliest fighter plane in the world and will definetly give India an edge against the Asian rivals. And tell Lockheed Martin to stop F-16 delivery to Pak and any support of parts etc... or no deal.
Pukes are through with the F-16s anyways, they ain't getting more for free neither can they afford new ones, J-10 is their Fighting Falcon now.
 

Galaxy

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India Rejects US Offer of Joint Strike Fighter F-35 Lightning-II

India Rejects US Offer of Joint Strike Fighter F-35 Lightning-II

India Rejects US Offer of Joint Strike Fighter F-35 Lightning-II, India has no plans as of now to either join the US-led joint strike fighter (JSF) programme or buy the F-35 `Lightning-II' fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) when it finally becomes operational.



"We cannot have two types of FGFA. We have already launched preliminary work for our FGFA after inking the $295 million preliminary design contract (PDC) with Russia last month," said a top defence ministry official on Friday.

This comes in the wake of comments made by a top Pentagon official, undersecretary of defence for acquisition, technology and logistics Ashton Carter, in Washington that the US was open to Indian participation in its JSF project.

Interestingly, the comments came during a function where an aggressive sales pitch was made for India to select either the American F/A-18 `Super Hornet' ( Boeing) or F-16 `Falcon' ( Lockheed Martin) over their European rivals in the ongoing IAF's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest.

The other 4.5-generation fighters in the hotly-contested race to bag the $10.4 billion MMRCA project, under which 18 jets will be bought off-the-shelf and another 108 will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology, are Eurofighter Typhoon, Swedish Gripen (Saab), French Rafale (Dassault) and Russian MiG-35 (United Aircraft Corporation).

The IAF force matrix for the coming years revolves around the 270 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion, the 126 MMRCA and 120 indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, apart from upgraded MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s.

In the decades ahead, the advanced stealth FGFA to be developed with Russia will be the mainstay of India's combat fleet. "Our FGFA will be cheaper than the F-35. Moreover, the intellectual property rights of the FGFA will equally and jointly vest on both India and Russia, with full access to the source code and the like," said another senior official.

With a potent mix of super-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability, the "swing-role" FGFA will of course not come cheap. The cost of designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development and flight testing has been pegged at around $11 billion, with India and Russia chipping in with $5.5 billion each.

Over and above this, each of the 250-300 FGFA India hopes to begin inducting from 2020 onwards will cost around $100 million each. In all, India will spend upwards of $35 billion over the next two decades in its biggest-ever defence project till now.

The Indian FGFA will primarily be based on the single-seater Sukhoi T-50, the prototype of which is already flying in Russia, but will include a twin-seater version and a more powerful engine with greater thrust.

"Its complete design will be frozen by the end of the 18-month PDC. Six to seven of its prototypes should be flying by 2017. After that, there will be 2,500 hours of flight-testing over 25 months before the series production begins in 2019," he said.

India Rejects US Offer of Joint Strike Fighter F-35 Lightning-II | Views to News, about USA, Pakistan, India, World and Technology
 

Adux

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What if choose Typhoon ? Do we buy the Naval Typhoon? How is that qualitatively adding after the MiG-29K?
The Navy wants a leap, the only one that gives them that option is the F-35! When the Navy buys nearly 100 F-35, that itself is enough commonality. Also the Navy has only two other fighter types, both of which were forced down their throat, one by the Russians, other by the Indians.


Does the IAF and IN share maintenance and spare's for similar machines these use now? If they dont, how does it matter?

MMRCA should and will go to the Eurofighter or Rafae, while F-35 is something Navy can look into for their 100 fighter requirement. They have the time to wait, Also Americans can throw in the EMALS, and all the carrier testing is done at their cost unlike Typhoon, Sea-Gripen and it is not 4th Gen like Rafale. Excellent buy, if it is for the Navy fullfilling our conditions
 
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trackwhack

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India Rejects US Offer of Joint Strike Fighter F-35 Lightning-II

India Rejects US Offer of Joint Strike Fighter F-35 Lightning-II, India has no plans as of now to either join the US-led joint strike fighter (JSF) programme or buy the F-35 `Lightning-II' fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) when it finally becomes operational.



"We cannot have two types of FGFA. We have already launched preliminary work for our FGFA after inking the $295 million preliminary design contract (PDC) with Russia last month," said a top defence ministry official on Friday.

This comes in the wake of comments made by a top Pentagon official, undersecretary of defence for acquisition, technology and logistics Ashton Carter, in Washington that the US was open to Indian participation in its JSF project.

Interestingly, the comments came during a function where an aggressive sales pitch was made for India to select either the American F/A-18 `Super Hornet' ( Boeing) or F-16 `Falcon' ( Lockheed Martin) over their European rivals in the ongoing IAF's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest.

The other 4.5-generation fighters in the hotly-contested race to bag the $10.4 billion MMRCA project, under which 18 jets will be bought off-the-shelf and another 108 will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology, are Eurofighter Typhoon, Swedish Gripen (Saab), French Rafale (Dassault) and Russian MiG-35 (United Aircraft Corporation).

The IAF force matrix for the coming years revolves around the 270 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion, the 126 MMRCA and 120 indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, apart from upgraded MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s.

In the decades ahead, the advanced stealth FGFA to be developed with Russia will be the mainstay of India's combat fleet. "Our FGFA will be cheaper than the F-35. Moreover, the intellectual property rights of the FGFA will equally and jointly vest on both India and Russia, with full access to the source code and the like," said another senior official.

With a potent mix of super-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability, the "swing-role" FGFA will of course not come cheap. The cost of designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development and flight testing has been pegged at around $11 billion, with India and Russia chipping in with $5.5 billion each.

Over and above this, each of the 250-300 FGFA India hopes to begin inducting from 2020 onwards will cost around $100 million each. In all, India will spend upwards of $35 billion over the next two decades in its biggest-ever defence project till now.

The Indian FGFA will primarily be based on the single-seater Sukhoi T-50, the prototype of which is already flying in Russia, but will include a twin-seater version and a more powerful engine with greater thrust.

"Its complete design will be frozen by the end of the 18-month PDC. Six to seven of its prototypes should be flying by 2017. After that, there will be 2,500 hours of flight-testing over 25 months before the series production begins in 2019," he said.

India Rejects US Offer of Joint Strike Fighter F-35 Lightning-II | Views to News, about USA, Pakistan, India, World and Technology
Absolutely awesome news. Fantatsic!!!

We cannot puppet around any longer as a nation. We chose an ally in the Russians and we stick by them. It is the wiser choice - they have the resources we need. Their areas of interest are not in competition with us and most important, they are the rising power as opposed to Western Capitalism being on the wane. They've been our ally for decades, now is the time to realize the full potential of this alliance.

It still does not change the fact that we have to develop the AMCA naval version for ourselves. But choosing the F-35 would have soured our alliance with Russia irreperably.

Edit: Wait a minute, that story was one year ago. What was the point in posting it now?? Hope it still holds good though.
 
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Adux

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The NEWS item posted on #25 post, is extremely old, while this is a renewed bid.
 

ace009

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I do fail to see the logic in refusing the F-35C for IN's requirement for N-MMRCA. The FGFA will not have a naval version for the near future. The AMCA is nowhere in sight and a naval version is not even planed yet.
So, the choice then becomes either Mig-29K or M-Rafale and the F-35C is better than either of them any time.

As for "souring our relationship with Russia" - buying the Apache over the Mi-28 should have done it, not choosing a naval fifth generation fighter from USA, when Russia has nothing comparable to offer.
 

trackwhack

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I do fail to see the logic in refusing the F-35C for IN's requirement for N-MMRCA. The FGFA will not have a naval version for the near future. The AMCA is nowhere in sight and a naval version is not even planed yet.
So, the choice then becomes either Mig-29K or M-Rafale and the F-35C is better than either of them any time.

As for "souring our relationship with Russia" - buying the Apache over the Mi-28 should have done it, not choosing a naval fifth generation fighter from USA, when Russia has nothing comparable to offer.
The Apache deal is peanuts. You want to compare a purchase of 200 5th gen aircrafts on par with the Apache deal. What are you smoking?
As an Indian American you may feel comfortable cozying up to the Americans. As an Indian, I do not. Russia is a tried and trusted friend and nothing is worth ruining that friendship.
Also, the more important aspect is development our homegrown capabiliites, even if slighly inferior, in the long run more beneficial as dependencies will be less and hence leverage with other nations more.
I dont expect you to wrap your brains around that one though.
 

Adux

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Trackwhack,

I rather cozy upto the Americans rather than the Russian in the current juncture, they are extremely unreliable and over-dependence on them in sight of their cozying up to the Chinese would be very foolish of us. The Russia of the past is no longer with us. I think we are past the days of sanctions, especially after the last 10 years, and if they sell the equipment and they sanction us. Then it would be the best thing that ever happened to us.

There is a nefarious nexus being formed in the Russian-Chinese space. Its not good for us.
 

Adux

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MODS. please delete
 
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trackwhack

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Trackwhack,

I rather cozy upto the Americans rather than the Russian in the current juncture, they are extremely unreliable and over-dependence on them in sight of their cozying up to the Chinese would be very foolish of us. The Russia of the past is no longer with us. I think we are past the days of sanctions, especially after the last 10 years, and if they sell the equipment and they sanction us. Then it would be the best thing that ever happened to us.

There is a nefarious nexus being formed in the Russian-Chinese space. Its not good for us.
Do appreciate your rational response rather than mouthing off bull like many others :)

Understand where you are coming from sir but the onus is on us to repair or disrupt whatever potential evil nexus exists between the Russians and the Chinese. Not all is well between them either. Also Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know
 

Neil

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I do fail to see the logic in refusing the F-35C for IN's requirement for N-MMRCA. The FGFA will not have a naval version for the near future. The AMCA is nowhere in sight and a naval version is not even planed yet.
So, the choice then becomes either Mig-29K or M-Rafale and the F-35C is better than either of them any time.

As for "souring our relationship with Russia" - buying the Apache over the Mi-28 should have done it, not choosing a naval fifth generation fighter from USA, when Russia has nothing comparable to offer.
bro...F-35 comes with tonnes of strings...
1]in case of war navy cant fly it unless US approves it...
2]US is not giving us source codes which means they have complete knowledge of our planes n stuffs...
3] we have not signed CISMOA any such agreements with the US which means we are going to get a way downgraded version of it..
4] we cant put anything in it without US approval...

our security situation is something that does not demand a stealth aircraft in near future...plus i think with the arrival of F-35 the russians will press the need for a stealth aircraft for its navy as well..might be PAKFA...just a guess...
 

Adux

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Do appreciate your rational response rather than mouthing off bull like many others :)

Understand where you are coming from sir but the onus is on us to repair or disrupt whatever potential evil nexus exists between the Russians and the Chinese. Not all is well between them either. Also Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know
Do call me Adu, and the feeling is likewise, I feel that you are a rationalist rather than a Russian Fanboy! It has become nauseating to meet them.

Lets talk business.

I used to tell my friends, the power in a relationship lies with the person who cares the least.
In every relationship there is a matter of leverage. That defines how we can work it.

In the Indo-US relationship, India has many leverage's, we have economy, lot of Indo-Americans, third party countries like Israel , our reputation, our enmity towards China, our common goals like Terrorism, All of these separately with no central plan to make sure that Indo-US relationship goes from strength to strength. The fact of the matter is, US needs India much more than we need them. We hold the power.

we also have divergence in Pakistan, current world order structure etc etc. But those are issues we can tide over in time, when it is easier for US also. Just like, they have their Pakistan, We have our Iran. I am not saying Iran= Pakistan, but I hope you get my point.

When it comes to India-Russia relationship, We have NO such leverage. India is not the one who holds the power in that relationship, which is why we are treated badly by them! So, how can we fix it when we dont have any leverage!

India cannot be brushed away or ignored, the best thing for India to do to save the Indo-Russian relationship in India's favor is to lean into the US camp , this will make Russian nervous, and they will come behind us. We need to strike the balance, and clutch the power. We also need to raise tensions in the Chinese - Russian borders, increase other incentives while not being obvious about it etc etc.
 

Adux

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While there are a lot of common factors for Russia and China to come together, this will only come at the expense of Indians.
 

trackwhack

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Do call me Adu, and the feeling is likewise, I feel that you are a rationalist rather than a Russian Fanboy! It has become nauseating to meet them.

Lets talk business.

I used to tell my friends, the power in a relationship lies with the person who cares the least.
In every relationship there is a matter of leverage. That defines how we can work it.

In the Indo-US relationship, India has many leverage's, we have economy, lot of Indo-Americans, third party countries like Israel , our reputation, our enmity towards China, our common goals like Terrorism, All of these separately with no central plan to make sure that Indo-US relationship goes from strength to strength. The fact of the matter is, US needs India much more than we need them. We hold the power.

we also have divergence in Pakistan, current world order structure etc etc. But those are issues we can tide over in time, when it is easier for US also. Just like, they have their Pakistan, We have our Iran. I am not saying Iran= Pakistan, but I hope you get my point.

When it comes to India-Russia relationship, We have NO such leverage. India is not the one who holds the power in that relationship, which is why we are treated badly by them! So, how can we fix it when we dont have any leverage!

India cannot be brushed away or ignored, the best thing for India to do to save the Indo-Russian relationship in India's favor is to lean into the US camp , this will make Russian nervous, and they will come behind us. We need to strike the balance, and clutch the power. We also need to raise tensions in the Chinese - Russian borders, increase other incentives while not being obvious about it etc etc.
Since we are on a thread specific to a military transaction, I must state points on two fronts – the strategic implications as well as the military wisdom of incorporating American hardware.

From a military hardware perspectivce:
- We are creating a monster with the variety that exists in our defence procurements. The number of weapons systems that are incompatible on different platforms is already a pain that we are dealing with – Russian, French, British and Israeli
- Our diversification in procurement is a double edged sword. We may or may not get access to technologies but even if we do it is at the cost of impeding our own development. We will end up doing what the Chinese do – only legally.
- The AESA development timeline is far shorter than the proposed procurement timelines. We would have also significantly enhanced the Astra BVRAAM by then – it will possibly be THE missile in 10 years. The LCA already uses more composites than any other modern plane. Do not underestimate the progress we have made in material and nano-science and hence stealth thereof. In the AMCA the DRDO and HAL finally have the opportunity to break the shackles and come up with a plane that counts among the best.
- Assuming the F 35 is even 25% better, the caveats it comes with are not worth it. In the longer run the AMCA will be far more beneficial to us than any foreign procurement. I really hope the FGFA will be the last big military hardware India will ever need to buy.
I just do not see military sense in buying the F 35 – too many strings attached and will impede our own development programs

From a geo-strategic perspective
- America does not have an EQUAL ally. They never have, they never will. I will not even try to explain this but you can choose to point out a single ally of America that is treated as an equal. (when the French said they did not want to fight in Iraq, the twats here renamed French Fries as Freedom Fries!!!).
As a fiercely nationalistic and independent Indian, I feel very strongly about anything to do with being sheltered by the US umbrella. Now you may say that's not how it is going to be, but not one American will think otherwise. Not one American will think of India being an EQUAL partner. Over time, this alliance is going to become one of such severe dependence that we will eventually have to start towing the US line on International Affairs. Pointer – Iran sanctions.

Now you may ask how does buying 200 jets result in this situation? The simple answer is we can't have a leg in each boat. Over time every action taken by the GOI that furthers the Indo-US song, drives another nail into the coffin of the Indo-Russian one.

Geo-politics is always evolving. Our Non-Alignment stance was hardly that. We still needed the Russians to help us. Why point fingers at anyone regarding the Russian – Chinese dilly dallying?
Vajpayee signed a strategic pact with Putin in 2000. What has the UPA done to further our partnership with Russia? The FGFA was conceptualized a decade ago and we were in talks then, no points to the UPA there either.
The Russian Chinese alliance is based on a simple fact that Russia has raw materials and China needs them. The Russians are a technology supplier because they get paid for it. There is nothing more to the Russian Chinese alliance than an economic one.

So, yes, buying the F 35 from the US will do irreparable damage to Indo-Russian ties. My personal opinion is we cannot afford that.
Thank you for reading through my long response. :)
 

p2prada

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- Assuming the F 35 is even 25% better, the caveats it comes with are not worth it.
The Su-35 is 25-50% better than the MKI. The F-35 is 100-200% better than the MKI.

I just do not see military sense in buying the F 35 – too many strings attached and will impede our own development programs
As much as they can curb technology and other aspects of our military, there is an equal amount of chance that the Americans will look the other way in certain cases. They cannot hold us hostage with just one platform. Afterall, IAF will not be buying the F-35, the best chance lies with the Navy and the F-35 may only form 50% of the fleet, not 100%.

If we are able to bring a decent amount of production capability and a spares factory, they we have little to worry about. We will simply manufacture parts without having to get a licence.

So, yes, buying the F 35 from the US will do irreparable damage to Indo-Russian ties. My personal opinion is we cannot afford that.
Why? The F-35 isn't competing with anything made in Russia. They themselves said that whatever they cannot deliver India buys from the west. They aren't pissed that we are relying on Europe and Israel for our SAM requirements. They were merely disappointed when they lost the MRCA deal too.They said this won't stop them from dealing with India in the future. Our future procurement plans completely dwarfs the MRCA deal. You could say the Americans were more pissed off than usual.
 

trackwhack

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The Su-35 is 25-50% better than the MKI. The F-35 is 100-200% better than the MKI.
What are you're numbers based on? The USAF considers the F 35 an overpricxed joke and the only reason its still being sold to them is kickbacks to the politicians. After all it is supposed to be the biggest defence contract in US history ever.
 

sukhish

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If we can get a fifth generation plane before PAK-FA it might give us leverage in the PAK-FA deal. Russians have said they are going to export PAK-FA without asking what India feels about it, even though India is funding 1/2 the development costs. F-35 will be the deadliest fighter plane in the world and will definetly give India an edge against the Asian rivals. And tell Lockheed Martin to stop F-16 delivery to Pak and any support of parts etc... or no deal.
spot on,
all these years we have given money to russians and they haven't given us much ToT at all. also the PakFA, they are arm twisting us. they want our money and but give little ToT. I think F-35 is a beautiful peace of technolofy. this will definetly give us added advantage.
 

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