India's illusory nuclear gains

Ashutosh Lokhande

Senior Member
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
1,285
Likes
568
You build weapons for fighting wars, not for show-off. Whatever weapons a State has ultimately get used in war. Please read Mahabharat carefully. This book is a must read by military enthusiasts.

plz eloborate the mahabharat part.
 

sorcerer

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
26,920
Likes
98,472
Country flag
1. Nukes are NOT related to investor confidence. There are many countries (examples Japan and South Korea) which enjoy excellent investor confidence without having any nukes. Investor confidence relates to quality and quantity of manpower and conducive government setup.

2. Nukes are absolutely unlikely to prevent warfare. China completely ignores India's nuclear capability. If you deploy one, it will deploy 3 against you. Pakistan is said to have more warheads compared to India now. India's stance has not capped warheads of adversaries.

3. India/Pakistan situation is different from USA/USSR. they could maintain a "cold war" due to being separated geographically. India has long active borders.

4. India's direct diplomacy with adversaries is rather ineffective.

5. Not invading other countries despite other countries causing trouble in India cannot be called a virtue. Some people call it "weakness".
1) Japan, South Korea are all under the heaviest protection of USA. I think its common sense for any investor, about the protection a country can offer to its industrial infrastructure and investors; basically in avoiding a warfar at the most.
Quality and quantity of manpower is proved in many industries by our workforce, already.

2) So far nukes are the one that prevented the war between many countries, its more of a deterrent asset so far.

3) India has been in cold war with Pak for quiet a loooong time and that too very frequently. Skimirshes happen, but thats about it so far.

4) Diplomacy policies has yielded result in many cases and prevented quiet a few stunts from escalating.(Atleast Govt to Govt)

5 My intention to your post was that India wont use her aresenal on other countries for an invasion and as a country we are more sensible in using our technology for destructive purposes.
 

sorcerer

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
26,920
Likes
98,472
Country flag
You build weapons for fighting wars, not for show-off. Whatever weapons a State has ultimately get used in war. Please read Mahabharat carefully. This book is a must read by military enthusiasts.

More and more destructive weapons ultimately lead to catastrophic war.

If that is what you are planning for (a big war - with the attitude kill or be killed), then it does not make any sense in arbitrarily capping warheads at 100.
We build weapons to show off the capability and the " know how" of things to the world. This is a good deterrent in many cases and creates a level ground for our diplomats and for our forces. No soverign nation(Who excatly knows the meaning of "sovergnity" and sensibility) will want to cost the exchequer with an unwanted war, hence it is of utmost importance for any nation to AVOID war BUT WIN the situation. It shows how mature your country is in its policies and outlook.
Weapons get used in war depends on the nature of war.

Only If you are more powerful than the opponent, words like( " Pakistan to pay 'unaffordable' price for their 'adventurism': Arun Jaitley") these will be heard by the opponent in its correct context and do manouvers to de-escalate the situation.

The crux of the book, Mahabharatha is, "Satyamev Jayate", which ofcourse is all true in India's case and cause.

These days the destructive weapons for any country are oil prices and sanctions and policies. I read that such warfare cripples a country from even affording a war.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 16, 2009
Messages
29,799
Likes
48,280
Country flag
It is a discussion. Please offer your points of disagreement.
Why do you think india should abandon nuke with the neighbors we have?
Being peaceful will make others peaceful policy has repeatedly failed in
Indian history.
 

ghost

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
1,234
Likes
2,455
India's situation is very complicated. The economy remains dependent on foreign technology and capital. The industrial development and social development is inadequate.

The proper development and deployment of nukes is very difficult in such situation.

India has the manpower and potential to defend itself with conventional means. Nuclear is not necessary.

We need not compete with China on nuclear weapons. A strong spiritual country like India who believes in Karma knows that killing non-combatants is sinful. Indiscriminate killing by nukes is illogical.
:shocked::confused::confused::confused::scared1::scared1:

Sir,

If India is at war with Pakistan and China,and they decide to decimate your army battalions,armored corps and military hardware and installation with a barrage of tactical nukes.How do you suggest to retaliate or even able to hold ground under these circumstances,without nukes?

I guess you have not heard this
क्षमा, दया, तप, त्याग, मनोबल
सबका लिया सहारा
पर नर व्याघ सुयोधन तुमसे
कहो कहाँ कब हारा?

क्षमाशील हो ॠपु-सक्षम
तुम हुये विनीत जितना ही
दुष्ट कौरवों ने तुमको
कायर समझा उतना ही

अत्याचार सहन करने का
कुफल यही होता है
पौरुष का आतंक मनुज
कोमल होकर खोता है

क्षमा शोभती उस भुजंग को
जिसके पास गरल है
उसका क्या जो दंतहीन
विषरहित विनीत सरल है


तीन दिवस तक पंथ मांगते
रघुपति सिंधु किनारे
बैठे पढते रहे छन्द
अनुनय के प्यारे प्यारे


उत्तर में जब एक नाद भी
उठा नही सागर से
उठी अधीर धधक पौरुष की
आग राम के शर से


सिंधु देह धर त्राहि-त्राहि
करता आ गिरा शरण में
चरण पूज दासता गृहण की
बंधा मूढ़ बन्धन में

सच पूछो तो शर में ही
बसती है दीप्ति विनय की
संधिवचन सम्पूज्य उसीका
जिसमे शक्ति विजय की

सहनशीलता, क्षमा, दया को
तभी पूजता जग है
बल का दर्प चमकता उसके
पीछे जब जगमग है


meaning
Mercy, resolve, tact, tolerance
You've tried everything and some
But o my king of men
When did Suyodhan succumb?


The more forgiving you were
In your humane compassion
The more these rouge Kauravas
Pegged you as cowardly ashen

This is the consequence
Of tolerating atrocities
The awe of machismo is lost
When one's gentle n kindly

Forgiveness is becoming of
The serpent that's got venom
None cares for the toothless,
Poisonless, kind, gentle one


For three days Lord Raam kept
Asking the ocean for a passage
Sitting there he petitioned
Using the sweetest words to engage

When in response there was
Not a whisper from the sea
A raging fire of endeavor
Rose from Raam's body



The ocean took human-form
'N supplicated to Raam
Touched his feet, was subservient
A slave he had become

Truth be told, it's in the quiver
That lies the gleam of modesty
Only his peace-talk is reputable
Who is capable of victory

Tolerance, forgiveness and clemency
Are respected by the world
Only when the glow of strength
From behind them is unfurled

:namaste:

And I suggest we should not only increase our nuclear warhead but also their yield and the means to deliver them.As in case of a nuclear attack there cannot be a calculated response ,we have to go all out with all guns blazing with whatever we have.
 

bengalraider

DFI Technocrat
Ambassador
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Messages
3,779
Likes
2,666
Country flag

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
1) Japan, South Korea are all under the heaviest protection of USA. I think its common sense for any investor, about the protection a country can offer to its industrial infrastructure and investors; basically in avoiding a warfar at the most.
Quality and quantity of manpower is proved in many industries by our workforce, already.

2) So far nukes are the one that prevented the war between many countries, its more of a deterrent asset so far.

3) India has been in cold war with Pak for quiet a loooong time and that too very frequently. Skimirshes happen, but thats about it so far.

4) Diplomacy policies has yielded result in many cases and prevented quiet a few stunts from escalating.(Atleast Govt to Govt)

5 My intention to your post was that India wont use her aresenal on other countries for an invasion and as a country we are more sensible in using our technology for destructive purposes.
I shall reply to your point #5. When a war starts, both parties blame each other. It is very hard to prove who invaded. If a missile takes around 10-15 minutes from Pakistan to India, and assuming that a response is given as soon as the missile launch is detected by India, there will only be a difference of a few minutes between warheads exploding in both sides.

More points:
1. I doubt that any war is prevented due to nuclear weapons. Kargil happened despite both countries having nukes.
2. A cold war between Pakistan and India - I doubt it really exists.
3. The diplomacy between India/Pakistan and India/China is not really as strong as you believe.
 

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
:shocked::confused::confused::confused::scared1::scared1:

Sir,

If India is at war with Pakistan and China,and they decide to decimate your army battalions,armored corps and military hardware and installation with a barrage of tactical nukes.How do you suggest to retaliate or even able to hold ground under these circumstances,without nukes?
First I really appreciate and commend your post.

This is the most important question that you have asked.

In Mahabharat war, Arjun knew the secret of Brahmastra - means he could use this weapon but was always stopped by Shri Krishna.

The "Dharmi" or adherent of Vedic religion is one who has unshakable belief in God, belief that God always punishes the sinful.

India can use nuclear weapons against army. This is OK. Using a nuclear weapon against population is not logical.

There are a lot of other weapons that can be used against army. It is unlikely that China will decimate whole country or whole Indian army with nukes all at once.

Ultimately it is the individual citizen with courage and fortitude who will defeat any occupier. We did defeat the British.
 

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
The funny part here is that Japan also maintains a sizable stockpile of nuclear material that can be weaponized in as little as six months if necessary by some estimates, Though the pacifist constitution eschews nuclear capability the JSDF still has it all the same.

Japan Has Nuclear 'Bomb in the Basement,' and China Isn't Happy - NBC News
� Report: Japan Secretly Developing Nuclear Weapons Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!
The Japanese may have stocks of fissile material but just the decision not to build a bomb is a courageous decision.

Saying that Japan is under US umbrella is not the correct way to see it. Each nation has to formulate its security policy. Pacts are fickle and you can never trust the long term intentions of the other party.
 

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
In Vedic time, regular armies were quite small. The soldiers were invariably drafted for war from within the population. When the King decided to embark on a mission, he would send orders to the Kshatriya families to send eligible (not too young, not too old) male members.

So any war was very close to the public as they were directly affected by it. This is the reason of Hindus' aversion to war, as it is deep in the psyche.
 

prohumanity

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
1,290
Likes
1,362
Country flag
India's situation is very complicated. The economy remains dependent on foreign technology and capital. The industrial development and social development is inadequate.

The proper development and deployment of nukes is very difficult in such situation.

India has the manpower and potential to defend itself with conventional means. Nuclear is not necessary.

We need not compete with China on nuclear weapons. A strong spiritual country like India who believes in Karma knows that killing non-combatants is sinful. Indiscriminate killing by nukes is illogical.
DISAGREE . The rule is that you should have the same ,powerful weapons your potential enemy has. You can not fight with a knife with some one who has a powerful, machine gun . If both of you have machine guns ..it might cause peace and even friendship.
 

bengalraider

DFI Technocrat
Ambassador
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Messages
3,779
Likes
2,666
Country flag
The Japanese may have stocks of fissile material but just the decision not to build a bomb is a courageous decision.

Saying that Japan is under US umbrella is not the correct way to see it. Each nation has to formulate its security policy. Pacts are fickle and you can never trust the long term intentions of the other party.
Having only fissile material is not the point, the point is that the Japanese have access to the technology as well along with the ability to weaponize in six months. As far as pacts are concerned the Japanese know that the pacts will not be broken , the Americans need the approximately 90 odd bases and facilities they maintain in the Japanese island chain to stay globally relevant, the presence of these scattered bases from Tokyo to Okinawa guarantees the US nuclear umbrella. Should the Americans choose to leave in the future it'll take many years for them to vacate all these facilities more than time enough to make the bomb if need be.

United States Forces Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
DISAGREE . The rule is that you should have the same ,powerful weapons your potential enemy has. You can not fight with a knife with some one who has a powerful, machine gun . If both of you have machine guns ..it might cause peace and even friendship.
If your logic is correct, Shri Rama would have never gone to fight Ravan. What did Shri Rama had? Bows and arrows that he made from bamboo in the forest.

War is unpredictable. All planning fails in war. It is very important to have convictions. Conviction comes from belief that you are following "dharm" or path of righteousness.

When you follow "dharm", God Himself shows you the way.

I have no idea what GOI and defence forces of India would do in an actual war. I can only advise not to use nukes on population. It is OK to use nukes on military facilities and enemy capital (as capital is full of King and King's servants who are always considered combatants).

It is a good idea to protect India's population by destroying enemy's nukes. India can take all actions in this regards.
 

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
Having only fissile material is not the point, the point is that the Japanese have access to the technology as well along with the ability to weaponize in six months. As far as pacts are concerned the Japanese know that the pacts will not be broken , the Americans need the approximately 90 odd bases and facilities they maintain in the Japanese island chain to stay globally relevant, the presence of these scattered bases from Tokyo to Okinawa guarantees the US nuclear umbrella. Should the Americans choose to leave in the future it'll take many years for them to vacate all these facilities more than time enough to make the bomb if need be.

United States Forces Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
India is not Japan. India has always held the moral high ground. Why change now.
 

bengalraider

DFI Technocrat
Ambassador
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Messages
3,779
Likes
2,666
Country flag
India is not Japan. India has always held the moral high ground. Why change now.
Because the moral high ground will count for nothing when cj-10s and df-21s rain down on our cities, you cannot teach morality to a world that respects only strength. Teaching morality is what lost us two thirds of kashmir.

If possible please read dragonfire by humphrey hawksley. I found it to be a most realistic portrayal of a nuclear war between India and China, if India continues to have an excessively moralistic gandhian outlook that is!
 
Last edited:

tramp

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2009
Messages
1,464
Likes
580
Wider dispersal is also a recipe for a nuke falling into a wrong hand. How can it be prevented?

However if India does want to keep its nukes, then it should remove the pretense and terms like "minimum deterrence" should be thrown in dustbin. A rational policy of deploying nukes on silo based and mobile missiles, aircrafts, submarines and ships will be necessary which adds to at least 400-500 warheads.
 

bengalraider

DFI Technocrat
Ambassador
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Messages
3,779
Likes
2,666
Country flag
Wider dispersal is also a recipe for a nuke falling into a wrong hand. How can it be prevented?
All nations that deploy nukes have dedicated crack protection teams deployed with every nuclear missile. In India during peacetime the airforce and army deploy only conventional weapons. Only in the event of imminent nuclear strike will the warheads and missiles be mated,the warheads are stored in super secure hardened locations protected by large numbers of troops 24x7.
On deployment the land based warheads will be provided with adequate protection till launch, possibly by paracommandos.
The airforce weapons will only be loaded onto an aircraft a few minutes prior to it taking off for a strike.

Only the naval missiles onboard ssbns are always loaded with nuclear warheads, these however can only be launched by a series of codes and keys held by three different individuals onboard the sub at any time. In the best tradition of the navy I believe anyone getting command of an ssbn shall be an impeccable lifelong patriotic naval officer and we have little to worry about theft from a submerged submarine on the high seas.
 

sgarg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
3,480
Likes
986
Because the moral high ground will count for nothing when cj-10s and df-21s rain down on our cities, you cannot teach morality to a world that respects only strength. Teaching morality is what lost us two thirds of kashmir.

If possible please read dragonfire by humphrey hawksley. I found it to be a most realistic portrayal of a nuclear war between India and China, if India continues to have an excessively moralistic gandhian outlook that is!
The British would love to see a nuclear war between India and China.

However I would think otherwise.

India must talk to China and understand deeply what it wants. We focus too much on Pakistan. We have developed too little knowledge of China institutionally.

We need to teach Chinese language to hundreds of thousands every years. Send these people to create businesses in China. Trade with them and understand their culture.

I do not think that a nuclear war with China will happen unless India itself sets on a collision course with China. The nuclear war with Pakistan is a far more practical possibility.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top