India to spend 35 billion dollars over 10 years to boost airpower

p2prada

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RCS of PAK FA has already been revealed at 0.5m^2. It is not 5th gen VLO but with its internal bays it is above any LO 4.5gen fighter with external stores. Rafale would need stealth pylon containers to achieve that level even though its clean RCS is lower.
Maybe that is the case. Maybe PAKFA's RCS of 0.5m[SUP]2[/SUP] is only on the unpainted body. Maybe it was disinformation.

Pogyoson mentioned F-22's RCS to be 0.3m[SUP]2[/SUP]. Perhaps the distance where RCS calculations are made is much closer for the Russians as compared to the Americans. Gambit did say the US considers RCS figures from a distance of 150Km.

Lot of maybes and perhaps here. Perhaps the same for the 0.5m[SUP]2[/SUP] figure.
 

p2prada

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Well I guess you could ask the pilots of the 1000 IAF planes that have crashed, at least the few that have survived.
Nothing to do with Russia. All to do with our own ineptness and financial conditions. We wouldn't purchase parts from Russia, rather we bought parts from illegal manufacturers at cheaper prices.

When we bought actual parts from Russia for the Mig-21 Bisons, the crash rate reduced a lot. Especially considering we are pushing the aircraft well beyond the service life possible on the Mig-21.
 

trackwhack

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RCS of PAK FA has already been revealed at 0.5m^2. It is not 5th gen VLO but with its internal bays it is above any LO 4.5gen fighter with external stores. Rafale would need stealth pylon containers to achieve that level even though its clean RCS is lower.
Rafale is not gonna achieve anything close to PAKFA. You're conviniently siding with the nutcase to launch a snide attack. Typical of the French.
 

Armand2REP

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they are making fool to common Indian or them self

nothing is going to be change

we will get 5th gen fighter plane when all the world are using 6 or 7th gen plane

pls dont play with the nation security and i thing all fault goes to our top officer who allowing to leaders and babus to do that .

nation security is our officer duty not the corrupt leaders ,but our officer are just pet to leaders
It is the fault of GoI knowing that PAK FA isn't a true 5th gen fighter, but it will be Russia's fault when they do not meet timelines. This will lead to follow on orders for Rafale.
 

p2prada

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Rafale won't even be at the level of the MKI after the upgrade, this is from our own officials. Forget about catching up to the PAKFA.
 

Tshering22

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It is not how much money alone that will be spend (and how much be pocketed by politicians to be precise) but what we get in return for spending that money.

Let's not get excited at the money spent until we see what we are getting is worth it or not.
 

wild goose

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MMRCA Deal By March 2013; Attack Choppers Under Negotiation; Heavy lift Helos, Refuellers Bids Opening Soon

India will finalise its originally-estimated $10.5-billion contract for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) with the selected Dassault Aviation for its Rafale fighter jets within this fiscal that ends in March 2013.

It is also readying to open the commercial bids in the tenders for 15 heavy lift helicopters and six mid-air refuellers, apart getting all set to sign a $1.4-billion deal for 22 Apache attack helicopters from the American aerospace major Boeing's stable.

These apart negotiations are also on to buy four more Aerostat radars from Israel at a likely cost of over $400 million.

Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal Normal Anil Kumar Browne said in Bangalore that MMRCA negotiations with Dassault Aviation is in progress, where the costing of the procurement, transfer of technology, Defence offset obligations are being discussed as per the tender procedure.

"The negotiations are absolutely on. We hope that at least this financial year we should be able to finish the negotiations and finalise the deal," Browne said.

"It (MMRCA) is a very complex project, as we are discussing various areas like transfer of technology, the offset (clause), what HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd) will do and the cost as well," he was quoted as saying.


"Costing is also being discussed. As per the RFP requirement, costing is part of the negotiations going on with Rafale fighter, which was selected through a global bidding," he added.

IAF need the 126 Rafale to replace the ageing 1960s vintage MiG-21 planes and its variants of Soviet era and Russian origin.

Under the Request for Proposals of August 2007, first 18 Rafales will be built in France and transported to India, while the remaining 108 will be built in India by the Bangalore-based public sector undertaking Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). However, recent French media reports have suggested that close to 50 per cent of the MMRCA order will be made in France, suggesting that the components and such stuff will come from that country.

The MMRCA order is likely to cost India close to $20 billion, as Indian Defence ministry officials have admitted that there would be a cost escalation in view of the over five years' time taken by it to decide the winner and finalise the contract. The $10.5 billion cost, cited by the RFP, was only an Acceptance of Necessity (AON) to provide budgetary allocations for the future purchase.

Dassault Aviation's commercial offer turned out to be the lowest of bids after Indian Defence ministry compared its price with European consortium Cassidian's for its Eurofighter Typhoon planes in late January this year. The commercial bids were opened in November 2011, after the two companies were down selected in April that year.

At present, the Indian Defence ministry is negotiating the contract and the cost of the deal with Dassault.

"We are going to very shortly open bids for 15 heavy-lift helicopters and six air-to-air refuelling tankers. We are also negotiating for 22 Apache attack choppers, as the bids have already been opened," Browne said.

For the heavy lift helicopters tender, Boeing has offered its CH-47 Chinook against the Russian Mi-26 helicopters. The 15 helicopters are needed to replace the ageing fleet of Russian Mi-26 helicopters. IAF at present operates three Mi-26 helicopters, after one of the four it originally had crashed in December 2010.

European firm Airbus with its A330 multi-role tanker transport (MRTT) and the Russian IL-78 are in the race for the air-to-air refuelling tankers.

"We are negotiating with Boeing for buying 22 Apache choppers this year," Browne said.

AH-64D Apache Longbow outwitted the Russian Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant's Mi-28 Havoc for the contract under which the American attack helicopters will come along with a supply of 812 AGM-114L-3 Hellfire Longbow missiles, 542 AGM-114R-3 Hellfire-II missiles, 245 Stinger Block I-92H missiles and 12 AN/APG-78 fire-control radars.

"Negotiations are also on to acquire four additional Aerostat radars from Israel for detecting and tracking low-flying aircraft," he added.

Of the two Aerostats supplied by Israel in 2007-08, one was damaged in an accident in 2009. The contract for the two Aerostats was signed for $175 million with Israeli firm Rafael in March 2002.

The air chief, who reviewed the home-grown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project, admitted that it was behind schedule in getting the initial operational clearance (IOC).

"I reviewed the LCA project recently. There have been some delays. We are, however, trying to catch up on time so that we can at least get IOC by next year," he added
 

Armand2REP

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Rafale won't even be at the level of the MKI after the upgrade, this is from our own officials. Forget about catching up to the PAKFA.
Rafale avionics are well ahead of anything Russia has, this is from our own officials. Forget about catching up to Rafale. French R&D proceeds much faster and with better success than bankrupt, geriatric Russian electronics.
 

Tronic

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Why dont you ask Saddam or the middle east countries that went up against Israel about that.
What are you talking about? Saddam had poor Iraqi built copies of the third rate export version of the T-72!

As for the rest of the ME countries, they got whacked using American weapons. The Egyptians and Syrians had Russian weapons, and during the Yom Kippur War, the Egyptian infantry divisions completely obliterated the Israeli armoured divisions in the Sinai, and the Egyptian infantry were only equipped with RPGs and Saggers, and without any Egyptian armoured support at all! The Egyptian SAM shield warded off any efforts by Israel to provide CAS to their seiged units. Ultimately, had America not started filtering in supplied and intelligence to the Israelis, the Israelis were getting battered. Infact, Israel's breakthrough only came when they managed to find a gap between Egypt's 2nd and 3rd army, and that gap too was given to them by American intelligence, notably gathered through spy planes such as the SR-71. The only way Israel came out on top in the Sinai was that it managed to avoid direct combat with Egyptian forces, and found the gap to be able to surround them and cut off Egyptian logistics.

But if you want to compare hardware alone, than I'm sorry, you're completely wrong and the Israelis got whacked. Their American Patton and Sherman tanks became sitting ducks for Egyptian infantry's Saggers, and the Israeli air force was choked out by the Egyptian SAM shield (mostly SA-6s, SA-3s and 2s).
 

vishwaprasad

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Rafale avionics are well ahead of anything Russia has, this is from our own officials. Forget about catching up to Rafale. French R&D proceeds much faster and with better success than bankrupt, geriatric Russian electronics.
Totally agreed...when it comes to avionics, electronic warfare both Russia and China are far behind of serious western powers like US, France, Germany....Rafale shown its power against Raptor in exercises. I find it highly unlikely that any Russian or Chinese even if it is 5th generation will come close to Rafale or Typhoon in avionics. Russian radar system on MKI is very good though....

Once Rafale F4 version is out with perfected active cancellation system it will be a remorseful day on PLAAF and PAF bases.
 
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tony4562

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Just look at the french cars, the only car awards they ever get are the worst or most unreliable car awards. Low respect for quality especially when comparing with the germans is apparent, it is a reflection of the culture. French are latin, in the same family as the romanians and the gypsies, whereas german, english and the scandinavians all belong to a totally separate blood lineage. French are lazy, crazy drunken eating machines, no wonder in any war the first thing they do is to surrender because they don't want to miss their next meal under any circumstances. Americans see through this long long ago, so they intensely despise the french and of course hate them too. That's why the french jokes can fill several dictionaries.

There is no chance in hell Rafale will stand any chance against PAK-FA. As France will in all likelihood become a mullah-state (10 million and counting, and growing at a rate of 6-7% a year), does IAF really want a bunch jihadies to maintain their hardware down the line?
 

Defcon 1

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Rafale won't even be at the level of the MKI after the upgrade, this is from our own officials. Forget about catching up to the PAKFA.
Do you have a source for this?? I remember someone from RAF once claimed that EFT had defeated MKI in combat exercises. Rafale is of similar or better technology

Also, If MKI is better than Rafale, why didn't we just go for more MKIs in MMRCA???
 

p2prada

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Rafale avionics are well ahead of anything Russia has, this is from our own officials. Forget about catching up to Rafale. French R&D proceeds much faster and with better success than bankrupt, geriatric Russian electronics.
Ok. Cheers. :thumb:

We are getting both anyway. So, win-win for IAF.
 

vishwaprasad

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Ok. Cheers. :thumb:

We are getting both anyway. So, win-win for IAF.
Cheers....having these both beasts in IAF will make PLAAF think twice before challenging India in the AIR. Now only thing required is on time induction of this beast.
 
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p2prada

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Do you have a source for this?? I remember someone from RAF once claimed that EFT had defeated MKI in combat exercises. Rafale is of similar or better technology
Dog fights have nothing to do with technology, all to do with aircraft. EF has claimed to beat every aircraft including the F-22. The same with Rafale.

Only MKI claimed a 22:1 kill ratio against F-15/16s, but it is not from an official source but a Journalist who was invited to monitor the Red Flag exercise in 2008.

Also, If MKI is better than Rafale, why didn't we just go for more MKIs in MMRCA???
Heavy aircraft and the MKI was old, configured in the 90s. You can say in the late 90s and early 2000s the technology on the MKI was at the level of the F-15C barring the radar.

The source was a pilot in an article, it is extremely difficult to find it without the exact words and I did not archive it. To paraphrase what he said, the MRCA deal was always meant to infuse more technology into the IAF because the MKI was old and will be less advanced when the MRCA is inducted. But due to the delays, the Super MKI will end up coming before the MRCA aircraft and they will be more advanced and the induction of the MRCA would have lost one advantage.

Ok, just to give you a picture of the overall advantage MKI held over MRCA aircraft. You can say the SH was a very good aircraft. The old SH with the APG-73 aircraft was inferior to the MKI. The newer SH with the APG-79 AESA is more or less equal to the MKI. Actually when comparing radars the first version of Bars was used to compare to the APG-79. Let's not forget that the MKI was configured in 1996 while the new model SH was configured in 2002. So, this is pretty much where MKI stands against SH. Now if we consider the advantage Rafale holds over the SH is incremental, which is true, while the MKIs upgrade will push it way past current capabilities including doubling everything in specs for the radar, we know the MKI stands head and shoulders over the MRCA aircraft. The Malaysians chose the MKM over the old SH, regardless of the fact that SH would be coming with AESA later on. They identified 4 major parameters for choosing MKM. The MKM was cheaper to buy and lifecycle costs were three times lower than SH. The MKM was more advanced. The MKM had superior performance. Even with AESA upgrade the Malaysians found that the Bars- 2nd version was more advanced than what SH offered with the APG-79. They gave a 10% capability difference between the late model MKI with the SH's APG-79.

Where the SH really held an advantage against MKM during the Malaysian MRCA was it's low altitude performance and strike capability where the difference was quite stark. But MKM had adequate strike capability. Btw, when configuring EW capability on MKM, the Malaysians(Muslim country) had two choices compared to the three choices India had(Israeli). The Malaysians had to choose between French EW kits and Russians EW kits. They chose Russian. There may have been teething issues, but it does not look like they replaced it with a foreign analogue.

Pretty soon, IAF may most probably replace the Israeli EL/L 8222 with the Russian SAP-518. The jamming pods were released in 2008 and will most probably be part of the MKI upgrade. There is an internal AESA suite coming up for the MKI too, built by BEL with Israeli help I suppose. Twinblade mentions that in the forum somewhere. So, overall what the pilot said is true if you look at the capability difference between the current MKI and late model SH. Overall the Rafale is ahead of the MKI, but the upgrade will push it beyond the Rafale. Heck even if you compare current radar capability, Thales mentions a 50% superiority for the RBE-2AA(180Km) over RBE-2(100-130). The Bars is currently at the same level as the promised RBE-2AA(180Km). The Russians have promised a 200% increase in capability with the MKI's AESA upgrade pushing it beyond the Su-35(250-300Km) and in the realm of the T-50(xxx Km). So, obvious where the Super MKI will be in the IAF.
 

Defcon 1

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Dog fights have nothing to do with technology, all to do with aircraft. EF has claimed to beat every aircraft including the F-22. The same with Rafale.

Only MKI claimed a 22:1 kill ratio against F-15/16s, but it is not from an official source but a Journalist who was invited to monitor the Red Flag exercise in 2008.



Heavy aircraft and the MKI was old, configured in the 90s. You can say in the late 90s and early 2000s the technology on the MKI was at the level of the F-15C barring the radar.

The source was a pilot in an article, it is extremely difficult to find it without the exact words and I did not archive it. To paraphrase what he said, the MRCA deal was always meant to infuse more technology into the IAF because the MKI was old and will be less advanced when the MRCA is inducted. But due to the delays, the Super MKI will end up coming before the MRCA aircraft and they will be more advanced and the induction of the MRCA would have lost one advantage.

Ok, just to give you a picture of the overall advantage MKI held over MRCA aircraft. You can say the SH was a very good aircraft. The old SH with the APG-73 aircraft was inferior to the MKI. The newer SH with the APG-79 AESA is more or less equal to the MKI. Actually when comparing radars the first version of Bars was used to compare to the APG-79. Let's not forget that the MKI was configured in 1996 while the new model SH was configured in 2002. So, this is pretty much where MKI stands against SH. Now if we consider the advantage Rafale holds over the SH is incremental, which is true, while the MKIs upgrade will push it way past current capabilities including doubling everything in specs for the radar, we know the MKI stands head and shoulders over the MRCA aircraft. The Malaysians chose the MKM over the old SH, regardless of the fact that SH would be coming with AESA later on. They identified 4 major parameters for choosing MKM. The MKM was cheaper to buy and lifecycle costs were three times lower than SH. The MKM was more advanced. The MKM had superior performance. Even with AESA upgrade the Malaysians found that the Bars- 2nd version was more advanced than what SH offered with the APG-79. They gave a 10% capability difference between the late model MKI with the SH's APG-79.

Where the SH really held an advantage against MKM during the Malaysian MRCA was it's low altitude performance and strike capability where the difference was quite stark. But MKM had adequate strike capability. Btw, when configuring EW capability on MKM, the Malaysians(Muslim country) had two choices compared to the three choices India had(Israeli). The Malaysians had to choose between French EW kits and Russians EW kits. They chose Russian. There may have been teething issues, but it does not look like they replaced it with a foreign analogue.

Pretty soon, IAF may most probably replace the Israeli EL/L 8222 with the Russian SAP-518. The jamming pods were released in 2008 and will most probably be part of the MKI upgrade. There is an internal AESA suite coming up for the MKI too, built by BEL with Israeli help I suppose. Twinblade mentions that in the forum somewhere. So, overall what the pilot said is true if you look at the capability difference between the current MKI and late model SH. Overall the Rafale is ahead of the MKI, but the upgrade will push it beyond the Rafale. Heck even if you compare current radar capability, Thales mentions a 50% superiority for the RBE-2AA(180Km) over RBE-2(100-130). The Bars is currently at the same level as the promised RBE-2AA(180Km). The Russians have promised a 200% increase in capability with the MKI's AESA upgrade pushing it beyond the Su-35(250-300Km) and in the realm of the T-50(xxx Km). So, obvious where the Super MKI will be in the IAF.
EFT claimed a kill against F22. They did not claim to beat it, but they claimed to "beat" Su30. I hope you understand what I am saying.

Ok lets clarify some things first. Super Sukhoi is the name given to only 40 flankers that will have the capability to carry nuclear weapons.

You are saying that the rest of the normal sukhois are being upgraded. But the upgrades to be installed are not known clearly. Wiki says that AESA coming up will be Zhug and not something made by BEL. Anyways, the thing is we don't if all the MKIs are being upgraded or only some. It is also difficult to estimate the upgrade package. By the way, the amount set aside for upgrades is around 2 billion dollars. I don't think we can get much in it. Even Mirage upgrades cost us a very huge sum although the numbers were very less.
 

p2prada

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EFT claimed a kill against F22. They did not claim to beat it, but they claimed to "beat" Su30. I hope you understand what I am saying.
It doesn't matter. In a dog fight any aircraft has the opportunity to beat the other.

Even Mirage-2000s have beaten MKI, so have Mig-29s.

Ok lets clarify some things first. Super Sukhoi is the name given to only 40 flankers that will have the capability to carry nuclear weapons.
No. No aircraft from MKI squadrons have been earmarked for nuclear delivery. Only Mirage-2000 and Jaguar are.

SFC has asked for a Rafale squadron for nuclear delivery and the approvals are still pending.

IAF has no interest in this and have told SFC a squadron will be released only when it matters, until then the aircraft will be in IAF control.

Most probably there won't be any aircraft for SFC at all. They just learnt how to use Prithvi II, it will take them another decade to take complete control of India's nuclear arsenal.

All this talk of MKIs for SFC is fiction made up by the media and forums. SFC has only asked for 40 aircraft, that does not mean they will get it.

You are saying that the rest of the normal sukhois are being upgraded. But the upgrades to be installed are not known clearly.
Just because we don't know does not mean IAF does not. All we know is 5th gen technologies will be incorporated into the aircraft. Radar and the works.

Wiki says that AESA coming up will be Zhug and not something made by BEL.
Radar will come from either Phazatron or NIIP. The last we know Sukhoi and IAF are yet to choose one. The BEL made AESA is for the internal EW kit, not radar. It will be like Spectra. AESA is just an antenna.

Anyways, the thing is we don't if all the MKIs are being upgraded or only some.
42 Super MKIs will come from 2014 onwards. Apart from that 50 are already earmarked for Super MKI upgrades. This is a MLU - Mid Life Upgrade. Every single MKI will get this upgrade. 5 will be upgraded in Russia followed by the rest in India. All 50 are aircraft bought during the first phase of the project. After first phase comes the second and then the third. So, according to confirmed news this alone is 92 aircraft and it will be done very quickly.

It is also difficult to estimate the upgrade package. By the way, the amount set aside for upgrades is around 2 billion dollars.
No it isn't. Only a contract has been signed back in 2010 and a separate 42 Super MKIs in 2011. The price is unknown as of today. Maybe because the configuration is still not written in stone.
 

Defcon 1

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It doesn't matter. In a dog fight any aircraft has the opportunity to beat the other.

Even Mirage-2000s have beaten MKI, so have Mig-29s.



No. No aircraft from MKI squadrons have been earmarked for nuclear delivery. Only Mirage-2000 and Jaguar are.

SFC has asked for a Rafale squadron for nuclear delivery and the approvals are still pending.

IAF has no interest in this and have told SFC a squadron will be released only when it matters, until then the aircraft will be in IAF control.

Most probably there won't be any aircraft for SFC at all. They just learnt how to use Prithvi II, it will take them another decade to take complete control of India's nuclear arsenal.

All this talk of MKIs for SFC is fiction made up by the media and forums. SFC has only asked for 40 aircraft, that does not mean they will get it.



Just because we don't know does not mean IAF does not. All we know is 5th gen technologies will be incorporated into the aircraft. Radar and the works.



Radar will come from either Phazatron or NIIP. The last we know Sukhoi and IAF are yet to choose one. The BEL made AESA is for the internal EW kit, not radar. It will be like Spectra. AESA is just an antenna.



42 Super MKIs will come from 2014 onwards. Apart from that 50 are already earmarked for Super MKI upgrades. This is a MLU - Mid Life Upgrade. Every single MKI will get this upgrade. 5 will be upgraded in Russia followed by the rest in India. All 50 are aircraft bought during the first phase of the project. After first phase comes the second and then the third. So, according to confirmed news this alone is 92 aircraft and it will be done very quickly.



No it isn't. Only a contract has been signed back in 2010 and a separate 42 Super MKIs in 2011. The price is unknown as of today. Maybe because the configuration is still not written in stone.
I read on some parliament website that 10920 crores has been set aside for MKI upgrades. This is was said by our defence minister in the parliament.

How do you upgrade 230 aircrafts with just 2 billion?

If we are not even sure on the radar, it is useless to claim that upgraded MKI will be better than Rafale.

By the way, how do we know that MKI and EFT faced off only in a dogfight?
 
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p2prada

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I read on some parliament website that 10920 crores has been set aside for MKI upgrades. This is was said by our defence minister in the parliament.

How do you upgrade 230 aircrafts with just 2 billion?
Livefist: Indian Su-30MKI Upgrade To Cost Rs 10,920-Crore

MoD is terrible at estimates. Their estimates are always 2x lesser than actual cost. Anyway it is good that an estimate is available. We are so close to finishing the MRCA deal. But are we sure about how much it costs? Same thing. They will know it internally, but won't tell the media so quickly.

Also, this does not talk about the number of aircraft. Current confirmed news is just 50. So, 50 at $2Billion is expected. The remaining, we will wait and watch but these are MLUs and MLUs happen pretty much throughout the fleet.

If we are not even sure on the radar, it is useless to claim that upgraded MKI will be better than Rafale.
The radar, whichever they choose, is expected to be superior to the Bars by two times, like the Irbis E. So, superiority over the RBE-2AA is a given.

By the way, how do we know that MKI and EFT faced off only in a dogfight?
Simply because MKI and EF were never used in a full fledged encounter with BVR. The only aircraft MKIs may have played fully, and this is only an assumption, is most probably the RSAF F-16s at Kalaikunda.

Apart from that MKI have only been in dogfights with EF to date, that's in 2010 I suppose. With scripts and RoEs it can play towards either side.

EF-2000s have beaten F-22/F-15/F-16s in dogfights too. Same with Rafale.
 

Defcon 1

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Ok, btw do these MLU upgrades also increase the life of the airframe?
 

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