India to set up gas line to Pakistan

Neo

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Military regimes have never emptied the national treasury and ironicly recorded higher growth than civil governments. Whenever the military left, they left the country in good shape. But the six civil govts since late eighties brought us close to total chaos each and every time.

Nawaz has 34 family members in major ministeries and positions.Zardari had done the same...

If this is democracy, to hell with it.
 

roma

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It is a good move in the basics but needs more refinement in the details

I would prefer that the pipeline conduct the gas as in the original proposal but at the other end of the pipeline
i.e. the destination end should be an Indian company which will then bottle the gas and distribute and sell it
at reasonable prices to Pakistani families and individual and not to ISI linked packland companies.

Neither should we be selling to packland's industries - it would go against us much more directly that selling to families.

Both the bottling and distribution i.e the wholesale activities should be done by Indian companies
but the retail activities can be done by packlanders .

That way packlanders would know that the India govt is giving humanitarian assistance and simultaneously
we do not fall into the trap which the USA has been facing for the last few decades where the packland government
institutions accept assistance and then turn around and use it against the very donor who helped them.

It also makes it mighty apparent to packlanders that goi has helped them more than their own.

I doubt the Indian goi has bothered to think this through - i wouldn't be surprised at all if they have not !
 
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Neo

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It is a good move in the basics but needs more refinement in the details

I would prefer that the pipeline conduct the gas as in the original proposal but at the other end of the pipeline
i.e. the destination end should be an Indian company which will then bottle the gas and distribute and sell it
at reasonable prices to Pakistani families and individual and not to ISI linked packland companies.

Neither should we be selling to packland's industries - it would go against us much more directly that selling to families.

Both the bottling and distribution i.e the wholesale activities should be done by Indian companies
but the retail activities can be done by packlanders .

That way packlanders would know that the India govt is giving humanitarian assistance and simultaneously
we do not fall into the trap which the USA has been facing for the last few decades where the packland government
institutions accept assistance and then turn around and use it against the very donor who helped them.

It also makes it mighty apparent to packlanders that goi has helped them more than their own.

I doubt the Indian goi has bothered to think this through - i wouldn't be surprised at all if they have not !
That would be a no go, it's a commercial deal and no international aid programme.

Best India can do, if she's sincere and wants to reaxh out is to bid under Qatar's price of $17,42 mmbtu. India is purchasing LNG at $12 mmbtu thru a 25 year deal struck in Sept 2003 with Qatar.I am sure both countries would benefit from it and the deal will win a lot of hearts in Pakistan.
 

Virendra

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This was a good topic that got mauled with trolling.
Please have some respect for the Moderators time and like adults, use your mind before posting.
It was a pain and waste of time to clean a thread, by going through each post for 6 pages, where 70 % posts weren't the worth.

Any further posts off topic or in poor taste will lead to infractions. Careful !!

Regards,
Virendra
 

jamesvaikom

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I doubt that as the set up cost and all will also be accounted .... Coal will be a part of deal but not all....
Just an un confirmed info i read somewhere that it will be majorly providing electricity to Pak only ..... so that cannot be just balanced with supply of coal...
Anyway its good to create jobs here without paying for raw materials or using our natural resources. We can use the infrastructure for decades. Cost of maintaining infrastructure is very less compared to cost of raw materials or labor. Money spend for labor will circulate in our economy.
 

Compersion

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That would be too optimistic. I believe that Nawaz and his Goon league won't last another year. And if the military takes over its back to square one with India.
i understand viewpoint that you are referring but that is ultimately your desire to have better governance and results in pakistan and from hindsight recently many in pakistan have felt better economically when a military dicatator was in power. this is comparable to the democratically elected governments up till today. one can go to the other extreme and say it was even better before partition and even better with Hindus together and even better when the British were here.

but one must not forget that military dictator(s) were also in power when things became much much worse and are the reason for all the troubles pakistan face today. the democratically governments have institutions and rules and procedures that allow for transparency and also ought to be good for pakistan and one must stick through the pain to gain in the long terms. that is the worry for everyone in the region that pakistan only wants it too easily and will not do the hard work. its like terrorism its easier (under hope) that the bad apples will move and can be move to afganistan and even india later and not blow anything up in pakistan. its easier to manage terrorism (infrastructure and people) compared to eliminating it. but that is risky.

also the main point is nawaz and goons are business men and people that are fine tuned to keeping themselves remain the 2% of pakistan society. they have connections amongst themselves and also amongst the important stakeholders. these connections are not possible for paki military and others. the paki military might have rich officers but they are not business houses and have the business connections that the former have. having india enter the business landscape of pakistan will ultimately benefit these 2% and make them stronger and further strengthen the pakistan people.

also from paki military standpoint it will strengthen military since there will be more money and also they can concentrate on doing what they are trained and supposed to do and not worry about economic and political affairs.

further having India and PRC compete within Pakistan business environment will only benefit Pakistan.
 
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Pulkit

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Agree with you but the point we were focusing was the how will Pak pay for it.... Simply giving Coal will not account for the entire cost of the electricity supplied to Pak....
Who will bear the cost?
+
Set up also requires investment India is ready to Invest but then the returns will be also expected....

The only way would be to supply Elec to India also but then the problem with Pak will not resolve ....

We have surplus energy but we are not selling only the surplus we will be selling a defined amount .... Thus cost does matter....

Anyway its good to create jobs here without paying for raw materials or using our natural resources. We can use the infrastructure for decades. Cost of maintaining infrastructure is very less compared to cost of raw materials or labor. Money spend for labor will circulate in our economy.
 

Pulkit

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Nawaz' Goon League has sofar borrowed $15 billion from international market in the its first year, a new record. One would expect to see some results with that kind of massive amount, but no. No reduction in loadshedding despite a lot of noise and chest thumping from the Sharif Brethern, no reduction is deficit, circular debth is still there, private electricity producers have the capacity to produce enough to reduce loadshedding but the govt owes them billions in unpaid bills, more than 50 energy projects are launched but no reduction in unemployment, there's LNG crisis....and I could go on and on. So where did the $15 billion go?

They even lied about economic growth of 4.14% despite heavy critic from financial analysts from across the country who put it ay 3.5%. It turned out to be 3.3%, lowest in 6 years!!! So where did the money go?

Zardari completed Pakistans first.ever democratic tenure. PSDP and development budget accounted for more than $15 billion. Any visible development excep for Islamabads new airport and a few smaller projects? Where did the money go?

Before Musharraf, we saw 2 NS and 2 BB governments, all fell within eleven years due corruption charges. Development budget $20 billions, actual development Zero! Where did the money go?
Thats your duty to make sure that the money is well spent.... What do you think Army would have done for people...

I still remember Paks view when they said ki Hum ghaaas kha k kaam chala lenge..... no one in your country thinks about people as humans not even they themselves.....
 

Neo

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i understand viewpoint that you are referring but that is ultimately your desire to have better governance and results in pakistan and from hindsight recently many in pakistan have felt better economically when a military dicatator was in power. this is comparable to the democratically elected governments up till today. one can go to the other extreme and say it was even better before partition and even better with Hindus together and even better when the British were here.

but one must not forget that military dictator(s) were also in power when things became much much worse and are the reason for all the troubles pakistan face today. the democratically governments have institutions and rules and procedures that allow for transparency and also ought to be good for pakistan and one must stick through the pain to gain in the long terms. that is the worry for everyone in the region that pakistan only wants it too easily and will not do the hard work. its like terrorism its easier (under hope) that the bad apples will move and can be move to afganistan and even india later and not blow anything up in pakistan. its easier to manage terrorism (infrastructure and people) compared to eliminating it. but that is risky.

also the main point is nawaz and goons are business men and people that are fine tuned to keeping themselves remain the 2% of pakistan society. they have connections amongst themselves and also amongst the important stakeholders. these connections are not possible for paki military and others. the paki military might have rich officers but they are not business houses and have the business connections that the former have. having india enter the business landscape of pakistan will ultimately benefit these 2% and make them stronger and further strengthen the pakistan people.

also from paki military standpoint it will strengthen military since there will be more money and also they can concentrate on doing what they are trained and supposed to do and not worry about economic and political affairs.

further having India and PRC compete within Pakistan business environment will only benefit Pakistan.
What business connections are you referring to? Nawaz controlls ata, poultry, dairy and other major industries in the countries, has 34 family members sitting on major posts in key ministeries. Nepotism and favoritism is all time high, the latest example is the mango export which requires hot water treatment. There are three processing plants in Lahore and Karachi, the only mangoes being processed belong to Nawaz' Goon league. These guys rule Pakistan like kings, not as PM's. This was never the case with military rulers.
 

Compersion

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What business connections are you referring to? Nawaz controlls ata, poultry, dairy and other major industries in the countries, has 34 family members sitting on major posts in key ministeries. Nepotism and favoritism is all time high, the latest example is the mango export which requires hot water treatment. There are three processing plants in Lahore and Karachi, the only mangoes being processed belong to Nawaz' Goon league. These guys rule Pakistan like kings, not as PM's. This was never the case with military rulers.
I appreciate you have disappointment with the way current Pakistan is being governed. The military might not be too cooperative also because it wants to protect its image. Nawaz is a powerful business person but he cannot do everything on his own. Also I don't think he wants to and some say he cannot. But he and the 2% have connections in the sense they control the economy of Pakistan. The rich business leaders (not rich politicians) are inter connected with one another. Its important people in Pakistan realise that. All the rich business people in Pakistan know one another and one can dare say have community and commonality. That includes with their workforce and employees and one another,

I also think the current government Is much better compared to the symbolism and reality of having military ruler especially the last one that fails to understand rule of law and also the (headless) mr zardari government. Also there is no guarantee the next military ruler will have such accommodating and supportive events that safeguard its integrity. You must be familiar with the consistent frameworks where Pakistan is being shown to be a compulsive international law and customary law and sovereignty offender. I will not dwell more on nawaz and his business operations because I know the paki military also has many business ventures in Pakistan. Such open up questions that need not be discussed here.

the leaders of Pakistan have to be concern about making money by making profitable ventures. By maximising opportunities. But there is not so much more they can do from within Pakistan today. The Institutions and rules and frameworks in place now in Pakistan are not suited for a bigger economy, In fact If you go to nawaz and his goons and other business leaders and tell them they can make billions by trading with india and by having indian business in Pakistan that they control (51%) will they accept. The fact is they cannot because of some infantile behaviour. They cannot earn billions because of difficulty. They cannot improve Pakistan economy in a approach that is possible, clear and capable for them and people of Pakistan and its defence preparedness ultimately.

A profitable venture be it from india is good for Pakistan and Pakistan people it creates employment and it improves the economy and it improves spending on military and defence of Pakistan and it improves skills and industry and even scope of taking fdi away from india and share into Pakistan but the Pakistan government and military would rather take a easier approach of supporting terrorism compared to using international trade economics with india and its parameters.

Have you wondered why PRC and one of its largest trading partner is Taiwan and even japan and not North Korea (it's ally). Please carefully analyse those names, and look at how PRC people can still maintain positions comparable with its constitution.

But I suspect when leader of Pakistan and PRC talk and strategise it's not about such things. Can I ask you will PRC not be too comfortable having Pakistan do business with india. Can I ask you Does PRC have Pakistan interests 100% in their heart and mind. Can I ask you Does PRC want Pakistan to be a North Korea. I have a feeling that nawaz and his close group of advisers thinks more about these question each day compared to terrorism. But PRC people are pragmatic and if they see india business doing well in Pakistan they will likewise come and do well and better too.

Obviously it can work both ways and it might even make india and Pakistan countries get closer but the fact is Pakistan government and military is too weak and infantile to take up such a challenge in its own interests and for betterment of people and its own military, since doing the smart work by doing trade with india might even make Pakistan stronger that is a fact. And one can always stop if its not good.

Please do not make a assumption that indian investment and indian business is bad and with ill intention. You will be shocked and surprised and that's why I repeat give india the exact same terms that Pakistan gives to PRC. That means in doing business in Pakistan.

You might ask but the neighbours of india aren't doing well. My answer is compare Pakistan with Bangladesh economically. Due to size and demographics.

What about terror attacks and security of indian business in Pakistan. The signal that india is wanting and willing to take such a risk to invest in Pakistan needs to be explored and also india can help improve the security and environment for people of,Pakistan. There's huge potential. That sends a positive signal internationally.

The military leaders of Pakistan are not concern about making profitable ventures but about creating bank balances for officers. I am sure nawaz needs a better economy because using your reasons it will make him ultimately more richer and he has his family and legacy to worry about later.

Nawaz is the best thing that has happened to Pakistan. He is a business man at heart, There is a window of opportunity for opening up to trade with india that is in perfect alignment for what Pakistan needs and wants, if he ends up creating a stronger military as a secondary outcome is that good is that bad.

A simple fact is nawaz needs to realise that if he has india competing with PRC in Pakistan business environment it will only benefit Pakistan. Pakistan needs to realise that - also do it before it becomes further alienated and needs to stop being lazy and trying to take easier paths like rely on Bailouts and PRC and terrorism and start to grow up and earn money by trading with india.

This news about having india supply electricity and gas to Pakistan is in a bigger picture if india telling Pakistan it needs to grow up and start realising doing trade with india is good for itself. India is willing to show that by not entering Pakistan. What happens when they do with such huge economics in place already. It will be more sustainable and better one would think. Is Pakistan smart and able is the question.
 
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