India to send back Sri Lankan Air Force trainees, China Sri Lanka bhai bhai

KS

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. I am also saying a prolonged conflict between SL Army and LTTE would have cost a lot more lives, than the total death toll of this genocide.

To think survival of the LTTE would have been nice is naïve.
Sorry boss. That logic is absurd as well has wrong factually

Casualties of the Sri Lankan Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Have a look at the casualty figures for the year 2002-2005 when the ceasefire reportedly supervised/enforced by the NDA govt was in place..the casualties were at an all time low and there a a sudden spurt in activities once the ceasefire fell through after the Sinhalas launched the Eezham war IV.

Unlike the mujaheddin who were determined to throw out the Soviets at any cost and actually did not even seek any ceasefires, the LTTE became more like a professional army and there was a ceasefire.
 

pmaitra

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By the Sinhala Army and LTTE.
Corrected that for you in red.

The 'massacre' of the Tamils by the LTTE is as much the CRPF 'massacres' in the red belt or the Indian Army did in NE or in the height of militancy in Kashmir.
However you want to look at it. Death is death.

That the IPKF went there without contingency plans for the obvious scenario points to shoddy planning on Indian Army's part.
Well, Indian Army learnt a lesson, that they should never trust the SL government and the LTTE. Guess why Delhi gave the go ahead for the complete elimination of LTTE?

And it was not a peacekeeping force perse. It was a force that assumed the mandate to disarm the LTTE according to the Rajiv-jayawardene accords and that it expected the world's most dangerous militant group to just lay down arms without a fight is a gross stupidity on IA's part.
Karthic, you need to stop writing these half truths.

You mentioned that the Rajiv-Jayawardene accord expected the LTTE to lay down arms without a fight. Who will mention that the same accord also envisaged devolution of power to the Tamils?

Since you did not mention, I am doing it.

Not sure who is engaging in a 'drivel' here witout knowing the facts and going on superficial assumptions.
I don't think you know any better. Read that thread; there are posts by army people, who can give you a better idea of what happened.
 

pmaitra

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Sorry boss. That logic is absurd as well has wrong factually

Casualties of the Sri Lankan Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Have a look at the casualty figures for the year 2002-2005 when the ceasefire reportedly supervised/enforced by the NDA govt was in place..the casualties were at an all time low and there a a sudden spurt in activities once the ceasefire fell through after the Sinhalas launched the Eezham war IV.

Unlike the mujaheddin who were determined to throw out the Soviets at any cost and actually did not even seek any ceasefires, the LTTE became more like a professional army and there was a ceasefire.
As I said, maybe I am wrong. Maybe a prolonged conflict between SL Army and LTTE would have caused less deaths to the Tamils of Sri Lanka. Just that I don't buy that argument, no matter what statistics you show.

Again, that depends upon how long it would have continued. Had it continued for another 10 or 15 years, well, you do the estimate.
 

TheLord

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Central government might have known that they will face such a situation, then why they decided to train the SLAF pilots? Either they shouldn't started the training or stick to their earlier decision to train the SLAF pilots.

It seems congress doesn't have a consistent policy on anything and changing the policy every other day is not good. They have only one thing in mind "vote bank".
 

hit&run

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If Sri Lankan Air Force officers are expelled, we will train them.
July 7, 2012 at 9:18 am | Lanka C News

Pakistan says that, if India will expel the Sri Lankan Air Force officers who are receiving a training in Tamilnadu Army Training Center, Pakistan is ready to train them.
Pakistan, which has many high graded training centers, has expressed it's willingness to train the Sri Lankan Ari force officials soon after the media reports were published regarding the relevant incident.
Even though, India hasn't taken a decision to send back these Sri Lankan Air Force officers , their training secessions in Tamilnadu were cancelled.
The Indian government hasn't officially informed the Sri Lanakn government yet,in this regards.
And then Pakistanis cry victims when Indians pull their pants for their provocations and hostilities. Down with Aman ki Asha
 

KS

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As I said, maybe I am wrong. Maybe a prolonged conflict between SL Army and LTTE would have caused less deaths to the Tamils of Sri Lanka. Just that I don't buy that argument, no matter what statistics you show.

Again, that depends upon how long it would have continued. Had it continued for another 10 or 15 years, well, you do the estimate.
Fine, I can debate logically with people with mentality like this "no matter what statistics, what proofs you say I wont agree".

The point is you dont know the ground realities and your assesment of the complex situation is superficial/simplistic to say the least.
 

pmaitra

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Fine, I can debate logically with people with mentality like this "no matter what statistics, what proofs you say I wont agree".

The point is you dont know the ground realities and your assesment of the complex situation is superficial/simplistic to say the least.
Were you present in Sri Lanka during IPKF's time? Just asking, since you mentioned 'ground realities.'

Wrong on this count.

Actually the different Tamil rebel groups liike LTTE, PLOTE, ERPLF never worked in synergy and spent more time at each other's throats than on the sinhala throats.

It is known locally that it was Dr.MGR who first tried to mediate between the groups in the camps in Theni district and when that failed he asked his favorite guerilla "Prabha" to eliminate the others and make LTTE to assume the mantle of fighting the sinhalese.
Not countering the points you made, but I strongly recommend you read this particular post, and the link therein.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/subcontinent-central-asia/29036-indias-vietnam-5.html#post379046

Also recommended for others.

If you have time, read the entire thread.
 

pmaitra

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As I said, maybe I am wrong. Maybe a prolonged conflict between SL Army and LTTE would have caused less deaths to the Tamils of Sri Lanka. Just that I don't buy that argument, no matter what statistics you show.

Again, that depends upon how long it would have continued. Had it continued for another 10 or 15 years, well, you do the estimate.
Fine, I can debate logically with people with mentality like this "no matter what statistics, what proofs you say I wont agree".

The point is you dont know the ground realities and your assesment of the complex situation is superficial/simplistic to say the least.
Karthic, how many people would have died if, say, the SL Army and LTTE conflict carried on for another 15 years?

P.S.: There is nothing logical about your response, when you quote my post, but refuse to answer it.
 

pmaitra

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Sri Lankan Civil War Stats in Brief:

Time: 1983 - 2009 (26 years)
Dead: Upto 100,000, of which a little more than half were civilians, believed to be mostly Tamil, but no accurate estimate exists.
Casualties if the war continued for another 15 years: ~58,000, in addition to those already killed, most of whom would have been Tamil civilians.

Even after this, if anyone wishes the conflict to continue, I have to say, such wishes are motivated neither by reason, nor by humanitarian compassion, but by sheer nationalistic jingoism.
 

KS

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Corrected that for you in red.

However you want t look at it. Death is death.
Corrected based on what ? Your little bubble ? Wrong mate. As I said you are basing your posts on very simplistic/superficial thoughts.

The term enemy - through the lens of a Lankan tamil - applied to only the Sinhalas. To most of them LTTE was a necessary evil. Period.


Well, Indian Army learnt a lesson, that they should never trust the SL government and the LTTE. Guess why Delhi gave the go ahead for the complete elimination of LTTE?
Because of personal revenge for the killing of their "king". It is as simple as that. It did not matter that tens of thousands of innocent civilians would be eliminated too in a brutal,systematic and planned manner.

The LTTE did what was expected of it. It was the prime fighting force against the Sinhalese and it was not made a party to the talks. That Rajiv and Jeyawardene randomly decided to disarm LTTE without its participation in talks does not make it incumbent on LTTE to do so. So there was no 'backstabbing' on their part. The sole 'backstabber' was the Lankan Govt and the 'joker' in the pack - Rajiv's govt with IPKF being the sufferer.

That the stupid GoI has still not learnt its lesson and keeps trusting the Lankans is an epic blunder whose price we will pay -- if not now, then in the future.

Karthic, you need to stop writing these half truths.

You mentioned that the Rajiv-Jayawardene accord expected the LTTE to lay down arms without a fight. Who will mention that the same accord also envisaged devolution of power to the Tamils?

Since you did not mention, I am doing it.
Not sure how it strengthens your argument. it actually does mine. That the Lankans can never be trusted. What happened to that 'devolution' clause ? Thrown to the gutter..Not once..but twice..Once by Jeyawardene and next by Rajapakse..and still here we are....kowtowing before the Lankans in the vain hope they will some how show us mercy and accept our hand of friendship.

I don't think you know any better. Read that thread; there are posts by army people, who can give you a better idea of what happened.
Better than most people here. I have interacted with the refugees, the victims -- in their camps, in coimbatore,
 

KS

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Were you present in Sri Lanka during IPKF's time? Just asking, since you mentioned 'ground realities.'
If presence on ground is what is required to debate then I'm afraid its high time we close this forum.

Yes, I said ground realities. Being in Tamil Nadu and having interacted with the refugees I have a perspective that you people who know about this conflict from TIME, OUTLOOK and WEEK dont have.
 

KS

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Karthic, how many people would have died if, say, the SL Army and LTTE conflict carried on for another 15 years?
See..this is what I meant by an utterly simplistic analysis. Why do you think they have to keep fighting to continue their conflict ? -- A ceasefire between the two with UN peacekeeping forces on the de-facto border to maintain its sanctity with autonomy for the Tamil provinces should have been the solution to this conflict.

That the casulaties were at an all time low - in single figures during the 2002-2005 ceasefire period bolsters my point.
 
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pmaitra

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Corrected based on what ? Your little bubble ? Wrong mate. As I said you are basing your posts on very simplistic/superficial thoughts.

The term enemy - through the lens of a Lankan tamil - applied to only the Sinhalas. To most of them LTTE was a necessary evil. Period.




Because of personal revenge for the killing of their "king". It is as simple as that. It did not matter that tens of thousands of innocent civilians would be eliminated too in a brutal,systematic and planned manner.

The LTTE did what was expected of it. It was the prime fighting force against the Sinhalese and it was not made a party to the talks. That Rajiv and Jeyawardene randomly decided to disarm LTTE without its participation in talks does not make it incumbent on LTTE to do so. So there was no 'backstabbing' on their part. The sole 'backstabber' was the Lankan Govt and the 'joker' in the pack - Rajiv's govt with IPKF being the sufferer.

That the stupid GoI has still not learnt its lesson and keeps trusting the Lankans is an epic blunder whose price we will pay -- if not now, then in the future.



Not sure how it strengthens your argument. it actually does mine. That the Lankans can never be trusted. What happened to that 'devolution' clause ? Thrown to the gutter..Not once..but twice..Once by Jeyawardene and next by Rajapakse..and still here we are....kowtowing before the Lankans in the vain hope they will some how show us mercy and accept our hand of friendship.



Better than most people here. I have interacted with the refugees, the victims -- in their camps, in coimbatore,
Thank you for a detailed explanation.

BTW, I don't agree with some of your comments, and I have highlighted them, because I categorically disagree with those.

LTTE was fighting for the rights of the Tamils, and Rajiv-Jayawardene Accord addressed that. If LTTE was the 'sole' fighting force against the Sinhalese, why were they so happy to recieve arms form the Sinhalese and why did they use them against the IPKF? No backstabbing on LTTE's part? You are kidding me, aren't you?

And Rajiv Gandhi government was a 'joker' in the pack? The real joker is anyone who thinks so, because Rajiv Gandhi prevented a US army base in Sri Lanka, and was again backstabbed by the same LTTE, and he paid with his life. Yes, in a way he was 'stupid,' as you said, because, had he known the LTTE would come back to bite the very hand that armed them, he would not have armed them in the first place.

Did you read lemontree's post that I referenced?

Those who are dead, are dead. Forget about the dead, and think about those that are living. Do you want more people to die, or do you want peace? I don't know whether you agree with Amit or not, but I would like to ask him, and if you agree with him, you as well, whether it would have been better had the conflict continued? Give me a clear cut answer, because, all this started with Amit's post below:

From the POV of Humanitarianism demise of LTTE spelt a disaster for the Tamil Population. Why are people crying genocide any ideas?
 

Ankit Purohit

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If Sri Lankan Air Force officers are expelled, we will train them.
July 7, 2012 at 9:18 am | Lanka C News

Pakistan says that, if India will expel the Sri Lankan Air Force officers who are receiving a training in Tamilnadu Army Training Center, Pakistan is ready to train them.
Pakistan, which has many high graded training centers, has expressed it's willingness to train the Sri Lankan Ari force officials soon after the media reports were published regarding the relevant incident.
Even though, India hasn't taken a decision to send back these Sri Lankan Air Force officers , their training secessions in Tamilnadu were cancelled.
The Indian government hasn't officially informed the Sri Lanakn government yet,in this regards.


Pakistan is ready to train them.??????
 

KS

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Those who are dead, are dead.Forget about the dead, and think about those that are living. Do you want more people to die, or do you want peace? I don't know whether you agree with Amit or not, but I would like to ask him, and if you agree with him, you as well, whether it would have been better had the conflict continued? Give me a clear cut answer, because, all this started with Amit's post below:
Again, you refuse to understand at what humongous 'cost' has this 'end' to the conflict come.

LTTE should have been there as a counter to the Lankan Army and a UN mandated ceasefire ought to have been the logical conclusion. India was capable of achieving it. No matter what bravado the Lankans show about going to bed with Chinis, without India's acquiescence they would not be able to do as much as fart loudly in public,

We did an epic blunder in Lanka by hedging our bets with the Lankans and we will pay the price for it.
 

Oracle

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During the war, the propaganda spewed in some Tamil channels were that India had given Tanks to the SLankan Army to kill innocent Tamils. :rotflmao:
 
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pmaitra

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Again, you refuse to understand at what 'cost' has this end to the conflict come.

LTTE should have been there and a UN mandated ceasefire ought to have been the logical conclusion. India was capable of achieving it. No matter what bravado the Lankans show, without India's acquiescence they would not be able to do as much as fart loudly in public,

We did an epic blunder in Lanka by hedging our bets with the Lankans and we will pay the price for it.
We did a blunder, yes, but I don't think we will repeat that again.

India is not going to arm any Tamil group, but will continue with humanitarian aid for the Tamil dominated regions, which is a great move. India is also not likely to have boots on the ground, again a great move.

What I want to see: End of death and destruction.

What India can do, and should do, in case of Sri Lanka getting too cosy with PRC, is, (1) naval blockade, or (2) aerial raids.
 

Payeng

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China-Sri Lanka Bhai Bhai.
 

KS

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LTTE was fighting for the rights of the Tamils, and Rajiv-Jayawardene Accord addressed that. If LTTE was the 'sole' fighting force against the Sinhalese, why were they so happy to recieve arms form the Sinhalese and why did they use them against the IPKF? No backstabbing on LTTE's part?
LTTE was not a party to the accord and the terms of the agreement hence did not bind on them. How hard is it for you to understand ?

Did you even see the logical fallacy in your post -- saying LTTE were fighting for the Tamil rights and they were not a party to an accord that seeked to address that ?

IPKF committed massive HR abuses in their quest to 'disarm' the LTTE and it was natural LTTE fought against them with all the help they can get.

And Rajiv Gandhi government was a 'joker' in the pack? The real joker is anyone who thinks so, because Rajiv Gandhi prevented a US army base in Sri Lanka, and was again backstabbed by the same LTTE, and he paid with his life. Yes, in a way he was 'stupid,' as you said, because, had he known the LTTE would have come back to bite the very hand that armed them, he would not have armed them in the first place.:
Lollll. You just got lost in your own logic. Rajiv did nothing to stop an US base. If US really wanted to set up a base, it would have done so -- irrespective of what Rajiv or his baap thinks. I have already explained how the LTTE did not do any 'backstabbing' in very simple terms, but you seem caught up with the beauty of your own logic that you keep repeating the same. I rest my case.
 

pmaitra

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LTTE was not a party to the accord and the terms of the agreement hence did not bind on them. How hard is it for you to understand ?
LTTE did not need to be a party to the accord. The very casus belli for the existence of LTTE was addressed by the accord. Prabhakaran was a megalonamiac, and he wanted his own fiefdom in Northern Sri Lanka. No wonder he used every opportunity to massacre cadres of rival Tamil groups, which act is convenienty ignored by some.

Did you even see the logical fallacy in your post -- saying LTTE were fighting for the Tamil rights and they were not a party to an accord that seeked to address that ?
Read above. Why should they not lay down arms, as per the accord, if SL was going to give the rights that LTTE was fighting for? Any answers? Or are you going to keep up the bogeyman of 'not party to the agreement.' India did not intervene to further Prabhakaran's megalomaniac agenda; India intervened to establish peace, that is why IPKF, where P stands for peace.

IPKF committed massive HR abuses in their quest to 'disarm' the LTTE and it was natural LTTE fought against them with all the help they can get.
Justification of LTTE's backstabbing. Nice.

Lollll. You just got lost in your own logic. Rajiv did nothing to stop an US base. If US really wanted to set up a base, it would have done so -- irrespective of what Rajiv or his baap thinks. I have already explained how the LTTE did not do any 'backstabbing' in very simple terms, but you seem caught up with the beauty of your own logic that you keep repeating the same. I rest my case.
I think you are completely incapable of an objective discussion. Moreover, you are deluded, and turning obnoxious.

Anyway, you are completely wrong, and either misinformed, or brainwashed.
 

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