India to select one or more fighter aircraft to be built by private sector

[Immanuel]

I have mentioned that in my last post as Typhoon (Eurofighter Typhoon) is too costly even costlier than the Rafael, I don't think we can afford its price ,IIRC it won the MMRCA competition ? defeating Rafael but considering cost Rafael was chosen.

Yes we can think about EF Typhoon if they bring down the price at or below Rafael's cost, but that is highly unlikely.

The frecnh pimps at Dassault are liars, the whole costing of MRCA was incorrect, they weren't L-1, they had a lot of hidden costs and in the end the cost escalation was well over 60%. Eurofighter might actually be cheaper than the Rafale but no need to find out, it's still quite an expensive bird. If the Rafale deal is cancelled we can expect to see Super Hornet International coming in fast.

 

[Bahamut]

Gripen = Zero chances since it's smaller and have almost same config as LCA.

F-16 = No, since Pakistan has already mastered its capabilities and weaknesses, will be a suicidal mission for IAF.

F-18 = May be Yes, since it can be used on IAF and Navy too, and it has a very good set of avionics.

Typhoon = too costly.

MIG-35 = perhaps no, since it's an old aircraft and MIG wont be able to deliver it at the speed we need.

So my bet is on F-18, BTW this step by MoD can force Dasaault to lower Rafael's price.

Mine is Mig 35 ,its advance and have a good electronic components ,no ToT problem and production base exist .Mig 35 is based on Mig 29 M2 and Mig 29k and it is a fundamental new jet .It is like Su 35 and Su 27.

 

[ACE of Spade]

Good that you also posted it here.

Only one of them, F18 or Rafael must make it through otherwise we will end up having too many type of platforms. I hope we pit F-18 deal vs Rafael and get better deal through negotiations from either of them.. :biggrin2:

You see Tejas impact already . We should carry on our work with Tejas MK2 and AMCA development.

How can you compare Rafale and F18 ?
Our Procurement is based on what we are up against
If we are against pakistani F16s and all other craps Choosing F18 will be worth

But when we are building an Air force against chinese J10,J11,J15,J20 and J31, rafale will be best
It is easy to say F18 will do all the jobs, but will you put F18 against J15 in future ?

IAF should buy Either Rafale or EFT other than this would make IAF loose edge against China
Better invest on T50

 

[smestarz]

How can you compare Rafale and F18 ?
Our Procurement is based on what we are up against
If we are against pakistani F16s and all other craps Choosing F18 will be worth

But when we are building an Air force against chinese J10,J11,J15,J20 and J31, rafale will be best
It is easy to say F18 will do all the jobs, but will you put F18 against J15 in future ?

IAF should buy Either Rafale or EFT other than this would make IAF loose edge against China
Better invest on T50

Adding my point here, Why are you not adding Su-30 MKK and also Su-35S to the mix of chinese planes that India will come against? Our own Su-30 MKI has outclassed RAFALE and so it wont be a match against Su-30 MKK or Su-35. Rather the IAF plan seems to be to pit Su-30 MKI against the Chinese planes and allow Rafale (if purchased) to "prove" itself against F-16 and other planes in Pakistan. During the Kargil war even the older MiG-29 were able to keep the F-16s away from the Mirage 2000.
When people are adding the various "weight categories" we already have MiG-29 which is in the same weight class and capable as Rafale. At least it is more than a match for the F-16 that pakistan has, so why is there a need for Rafale?

The only need for india is for numbers to replace MiG-21 and Tejas can do that comfortably

 

[nitish.sarangi]

Adding my point here, Why are you not adding Su-30 MKK and also Su-35S to the mix of chinese planes that India will come against? Our own Su-30 MKI has outclassed RAFALE and so it wont be a match against Su-30 MKK or Su-35. Rather the IAF plan seems to be to pit Su-30 MKI against the Chinese planes and allow Rafale (if purchased) to "prove" itself against F-16 and other planes in Pakistan. During the Kargil war even the older MiG-29 were able to keep the F-16s away from the Mirage 2000.
When people are adding the various "weight categories" we already have MiG-29 which is in the same weight class and capable as Rafale. At least it is more than a match for the F-16 that pakistan has, so why is there a need for Rafale?

The only need for india is for numbers to replace MiG-21 and Tejas can do that comfortably

I think IAF's interest in Rafale lies in the aircraft's SEAD capabilities. Jaguars or Mig 27s cant work so easily these days with awacs and advanced radars in place with Pak and China. Rafale's sensors and jammers are going to be benefical in that case. SU 30s do have great jammers but maneuvering close to the earth wont be so easy for it, where you would need to use natural obstacles as cover from radar detection.

 

[garg_bharat]

Nobody is sure which aircraft will be built under make in India but I think Gripen seems to have a lead.

Americans fighters are good but America's tendency to sanction any and all countries means that keeping production running in wartime may be next to impossible.

 

[garg_bharat]

The government is tired of Rafale saga. It has taken too much of MOD bandwidth already. The French are unreasonable most likely because they have a friend in IAF top brass. The negotiations have stalled time and again. There is a fear that deal may fall through and not get signed.

My prediction made one and half year back on this forum still stands.

Repeat: Either Rafale deal will not be signed and if signed, the planes will still not be delivered.

I predicted on this board that UPA era MMRCA tender will be cancelled. Ditto that happened.

There are a lot of shameless liars on this message board who only intend to mislead.

 

[smestarz]

I think IAF's interest in Rafale lies in the aircraft's SEAD capabilities. Jaguars or Mig 27s cant work so easily these days with awacs and advanced radars in place with Pak and China. Rafale's sensors and jammers are going to be benefical in that case. SU 30s do have great jammers but maneuvering close to the earth wont be so easy for it, where you would need to use natural obstacles as cover from radar detection.

SEAD/DEAD these days depends on EW suite and Missiles, Su-30 MKI already has EW suite which can be screwd on the pylons. The days when a plane flew very low to avoid the radar and then bomb the radar are 4 decades old. Now some countries like USA use a dedicated EW planes like EF-18 Growler to conduct such missions but other countries like Israel have managed to see the solution in different way by designing an EW pod that is able to conduct the missions. As I understand, few of the Su-30 MKI squadrons in IAF have 4 planes sporting this Israel made pod to perform SEAD/DEAD missions.
Would it not be stupid for a big force like IAF to depend on one plane to bring in this capability? like "we shall wait for Rafale and have that capability"" unfortunately for the French, India already has this capability long time back. As I told this forum, there is not a single role that Rafale can do, that Su-30MKI cannot do, rather Su-30 MKI can better it because of its ability to carry more internal fuel and hence allowing all its pylons for using weapons, where as the French planes have to sacrifice the war load for more fuel, Specially for deep strike roles Rafale will have to sacrifice its warload for more fuel on its external fuel tanks where as Su-30 MKI can perform the same role with its internal fuel load and hence deliver its total load of 8.5 tons of warload

 

[smestarz]

The government is tired of Rafale saga. It has taken too much of MOD bandwidth already. The French are unreasonable most likely because they have a friend in IAF top brass. The negotiations have stalled time and again. There is a fear that deal may fall through and not get signed.

My prediction made one and half year back on this forum still stands.

Repeat: Either Rafale deal will not be signed and if signed, the planes will still not be delivered.

I predicted on this board that UPA era MMRCA tender will be cancelled. Ditto that happened.

There are a lot of shameless liars on this message board who only intend to mislead.

The deal has less probablity of getting signed. Parrikar has now been on record to hint about the price difference, The earlier plan seems to be that the IAF top brass will be putting pressure on MoD by telling the country how dire its numbers are but now Tejas reaching the FOC there is no real need of Rafale, the numbers can be made up by Tejas alone. So the chance of IAF top brass blackmailing the GoI to push for Rafale at any price has already passed. They tried that when the new govt came in with ACM Raha going on record saying "there is no plan B" but these days he seems to realise that all his various "warnings" are being ignored and with new developments in Russia, seems that India might go in for the newer PAKFA and its technology.
Au Revoir Rafale

 

[garg_bharat]

There are too many threats to fighters just as the tanks. Attack missions increase risk to aircraft by a factor of 10 or more.

Standoff capability has become all the more important. Please note that Su-30 can launch a standoff missile as easily as Rafale.

IAF will do well to acquire more air-to-ground missiles and focus on high value targets. Low value targets and CAS should be left to army. Let army invest in hundreds of attack helicopters.

As small portable SAMs (shoulder fired as well as truck mounted) have become more capable, any strike mission by aircraft has become risky.

 

[garg_bharat]

Attacks by less costly aircraft like LCA Tejas are preferable.

 

[Superdefender]

All are touting about Rafale Rafale! No one is interested in AMCA aircraft....it will be miles ahead of Rafale.

 

[smestarz]

There are too many threats to fighters just as the tanks. Attack missions increase risk to aircraft by a factor of 10 or more.

Standoff capability has become all the more important. Please note that Su-30 can launch a standoff missile as easily as Rafale.

IAF will do well to acquire more air-to-ground missiles and focus on high value targets. Low value targets and CAS should be left to army. Let army invest in hundreds of attack helicopters.

As small portable SAMs (shoulder fired as well as truck mounted) have become more capable, any strike mission by aircraft has become risky.

CAS (Close air support) missions have changed since second world war or even after Gulf War, Till Gulf war, the doctrine of CAS was similar to what the Germans employed during second world war (except dive bombing) The limitation till then was the weapon, Dive bombing was done so as to incease the chances of hitting the target. But with availability of smart and more accurate weapons, the CAS role (of putting the ordinance at very precise location) has become more accurate and possible from Stand off range. No more the planes have to fly low and close to be accurate, there are missiles that can not only target accurately, but also have more firepower. Arming a capable plane with Targetinng pod and accurate missiles such as Brimstone, and other GPS and Laser guided missiles can conduct CAS more usefully than an A-10 flying low to have the same result but at much lower risk

 

[garg_bharat]

Laser Designator Pod can be carried by LCA Tejas as well. I think Su-30 is a multi-role fighter which can fire standoff weapons.

There is no real benefit of India having large number of Rafales.

 

[Superdefender]

Tell me guys 1 thing, what will IAF do if 36 Rafales become obsolete? They will be in the next decade!

 

[garg_bharat]

The problem currently is there is a race in armed forces to buy "Western" weapons. Why nobody knows. Everything is being twisted (including logic) to suit this objective.

Nobody knows how Western weapons will be supported in war. Truth is India has never gone to war with American weapons. The attitude of USA in a South Asian war is difficult to predict.

French have been acting just like Americans lately. We do not see any difference in US and French policies. American weapons are generally cheaper than Europeans, and Americans defense industry output is far more. So buying from France makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[garg_bharat]

French has developed a bad habit of randomly hiking prices. No agreement with France can be signed that can be called foolproof. This makes supporting any large program with France a financial nightmare.

 

[Harinath]

Tell me guys 1 thing, what will IAF do if 36 Rafales become obsolete? They will be in the next decade!

They will ask for another 10 billion dollar, as it is just, 10 only 10 or 20 billions of tax payers.
Rafale is already become an obsolete plane with what they have contended for MRCA. God help our MOD and acquisition and testing team for taking such a huge time to buy. In 2001 its brand new plane, but now its decade a half old. I think PAK FA project started after we floated MRCA and they are having a production plane now, and we are taking longer time just to buy the plane compared to othes who developed the advanced plane, with this we can justify such a long for development of LCA,,,,

At least now we must think futuristic. Rather developing LCA MK2 take Make in India Gripen and just stop su 30mki production and start FGFA production as we already have offer for full TOT from Russia, and have full R&D team working on AMCA and get series production by 2020 or 22 MAX and it will reduce alot of cost on R&D because we can simply use the tech we bough in AMCA. Cause we already have enough of Su 30 or we can have super Sukhois later to enhance mki capability we can spend more money on buying 5 gen AMCA rather buying 4+ gen Sukhoi more over its made in in India. And I dont understand why IAF needs dual seat, while almost whole world is able to manage with single seat. If needed on special missions have a couple or few of them for those special purposes. The US who goes to the war every now and then, has single seat version, why cant we? If needed we need to teach such skills in our pilots

who ever the culprit is we must just kick him out of Govt organisations who causes such huge delays.

 

[Bornubus]

F 16 for IAF would be a biggest blunder for India more than MMRCA drama.F 16 is a dead aircraft with l limited upgrade option in future.US lobby will go to any extent to sell this crap.

Our military buyings must be in accordance with the Pakis and Chinese, we don't need a costly Rafale to take on F 16 and JF 17.Russian MMRCA also closed the doors for Pakis and new vigour in Indo Russia relations.

When Russians offered us Mig 35 it was the best MMRCA deal with AESA that could be superior to any aircraft with PLAF.And if we upgraded SU 30 to super sukhoi along with Mig 35, it would've been the cheapest and most viable ootion, keeping 2 front war in mind.

36 is too small for a one front let alone 2 front war.

 

[vishwaprasad]

If they select then it has to be more Rafales only, otherwise if we go for one more fighter like SH Grippen, MIG-35 then our air force will look like a circus with various types of fighters, already there are MIG series, Flankers, M2K, Jaguars, Tejas. Just increase the number of Rafales in AF and navy for future carrier and it will add a mean punch to our attack capacities.