India to select one or more fighter aircraft to be built by private sector

A chauhan

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Cost was not the only issue. Getting permissions from 5-6 nations, specially like Germany, killed the deal.
hmm I don't have that info, cost-wise we were going to pay 20-25% more on each aircraft than Rafael. We cancelled entire MMRCA because Dassault quoted a very high price. We decided to buy 36 Rafaels but sadly again the same problem. Seems that "Make in India " is a reply to the cost-game of those companies.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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hmm I don't have that info, cost-wise we were going to pay 20-25% more on each aircraft than Rafael. We cancelled entire MMRCA because Dassault quoted a very high price. We decided to buy 36 Rafaels but sadly again the same problem. Seems that "Make in India " is a reply to the cost-game of those companies.
I hope French give a kick on Indian ass. That is the only way Indians do something.
 

A chauhan

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I hope French give a kick on Indian ass. That is the only way Indians do something.
Yeah, they not only kicked us but delayed our procurement, weakening our squadron strength, idiot Congressis got coned. From 2008 to 2014 they kept doing the same. Now govt has no option except buying small quantities e.g. 36 Rafaels or any other AC.

But this time Dassault wont leave the chance of selling 36 ACs, I guess.
 

Anupu

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They dont own the engine--the only worthwhile ToT.
Yeah, they not only kicked us but delayed our procurement, weakening our squadron strength, idiot Congressis got coned. From 2008 to 2014 they kept doing the same. Now govt has no option except buying small quantities e.g. 36 Rafaels or any other AC.

But this time Dassault wont leave the chance of selling 36 ACs, I guess.
I kind of can't make the sense of the decision, wouldn't it be better if they asked private companies to work with DRDO on AMCA. something like what they have done in FICV. What do you think?
 

A chauhan

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i


It can be reduced, but having multiple nations might be an issue. SAAB seems pretty desperate though, offers 100% tech transfer.
Gripen's accidental records makes it unworthy for IAF plus as @SGU said SAAB uses GE engine, plus we are about to get AESA for LCA from Elta Israel. DRDO has already on the way to develop Uttam AESA.

Only two techs were important Engine & AESA radar.

I kind of can't make the sense of the decision, wouldn't it be better if they asked private companies to work with DRDO on AMCA. something like what they have done in FICV. What do you think?
AMCA will be developed the way you are asking, they will make tenders to different companies for different parts and that is called Modular approach.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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I kind of can't make the sense of the decision, wouldn't it be better if they asked private companies to work with DRDO on AMCA. something like what they have done in FICV. What do you think?
My opinion is we need not one but two aircraft companies in India. Funding should depend on performance. That's the only way to nurture the ecosystem.
 

Anupu

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Gripen's accidental records makes it unworthy for IAF plus as @SGU said SAAB uses GE engine, plus we are about to get AESA for LCA from Elta Israel. DRDO has already on the way to develop Uttam AESA.

Only two techs were important Engine & AESA radar.
Yeah, I know Gripen won't make sense, but actually I can't make sense of any aircraft if it is not Rafael.
 

Anupu

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My opinion is we need not one but two aircraft companies in India. Funding should depend on performance. That's the only way to nurture the ecosystem.
Yeah, I mean look in FICV there are at-least 3 or 4 consortiums biding, and even if the firms who fail at preliminary stage will also join one of the wining consortium, you will have a three sided competition. Have something like this, ask 3 teams of DRDO scientist and 3 different consortium to compete with each building an AMCA prototype, then choose the best.
 

A chauhan

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My opinion is we need not one but two aircraft companies in India. Funding should depend on performance. That's the only way to nurture the ecosystem.
ADA will be taking modular approach for AMCA and that too is good until we have two companies for AC manufacturing.

Yeah, I know Gripen won't make sense, but actually I can't make sense of any aircraft if it is not Rafael.
Well the choice is really difficult, even we can not guarantee that US wont play tricks with EUA for F-18 SH if we bought it. But somehow "Make in India" is smelling good, since it would be a home production after all.

Yeah, I mean look in FICV there are at-least 3 or 4 consortiums biding, and even if the firms who fail at preliminary stage will also join one of the wining consortium, you will have a three sided competition. Have something like this, ask 3 teams of DRDO scientist and 3 different consortium to compete with each building an AMCA prototype, then choose the best.
I don't know about the capabilities of Indian defence companies of making a fighter jet as of now. It will be tough job even for the biggest companies of India.
 

Anupu

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ADA will be taking modular approach for AMCA and that too is good until we have two companies for AC manufacturing.


Well the choice is really difficult, even we can not guarantee that US wont play tricks with EUA for F-18 SH if we bought it. But somehow "Make in India" is smelling good, since it would be a home production after all.



I don't know about the capabilities of Indian defence companies of making a fighter jet as of now. It will be tough job even for the biggest companies of India.
They are taking foreign partners in design, allow them to import the engine under full tot, actually we can pit GE against Pratt & Whitney, Eurojet vs Scenma this way and they might actually produce some Innovation in there existing engine designs for India.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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They are taking foreign partners in design, allow them to import the engine under full tot, actually we can pit GE against Pratt & Whitney, Eurojet vs Scenma this way and they might actually produce some Innovation in there existing engine designs for India.
Wet dreams my friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Anupu

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Wet dreams my friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not at all, In FICV TATA motors has tied up with General Dynamics, Mahindra with BAE. See corporates can find a way, yes they might not give us engine tech so easily but corporates will find a way to negotiate. Profit sharing, stocks, a lot of ideas come up when private money is involved. Let's try to iron out the issues with any such deal?
 

shankyz

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My vote goes to F-18 Super Hornet.

Advantages :

- Working AESA radar
- EW Capabilities ( Growler )
- Navy compatible
- Ground Attack / bombing capability
- Boeing has existing presence in India
- Closure of St. Louis production line in 2017
- Cost ~ 60 Million / plane


Sent from Moto G using Tapatalk
 

Superdefender

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Guys, you have forgotten one thing. Why did Dassault become villain? No country was buying from them, but Egypt started buying some. After that, I saw Dassault backtracking and keep pressure on India. When no one was buying, Dassault was on the verge of closing and India was its only option to survive. So 126 aircraft for lower cost. But as soon as order from 2 countries, it started its excuses and gradually increased price. Now, we have fallen in its trap and can't back away. France will get $8-9 billion and around 7000jobs and it sucseeded. What did we get? Only 36!!!:(
 

tejas warrior

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No Rafale deal unless price is right: ParrikarParrikar
By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 19th Feb 16


Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar bluntly stated on Thursday that negotiations for buying 36 Rafale fighters from French aerospace vendor, Dassault, were deadlocked on the issue of price, and that no deal would be signed until the price was right.

Well-informed defence ministry sources that are close to the negotiation say there is a wide gulf between the two sides. “The difference between what France is demanding and what India is willing to pay is too large to bridge easily --- about 25 per cent.”

Business Standard understands that Dassault has quoted about Euro 12 billion (Rs 91,548 crore), while Indian negotiators are refusing to go above Euro 9 billion (Rs 68,499 crore).

Parrikar told India Today TV: “Price is the problem which has to be resolved. Unless I get the right price, I cannot sign.”

Debunking recent media articles that a deal was imminent, most recently in Hindustan Times on February 11, Parrikar said ironing out the remaining issues would take “a few months”.

Pressed on the question of time-frame, Parrikar responded: “You can’t commit yourself to a time, because this is not a negotiation for a few hundred crores. This is thousands of crores. I should not… put a time line on my price negotiation.”

On January 25, during his visit to Delhi, French President Francois Hollande declared after signing an inter-governmental agreement for the supply of 36 Rafales, “There are some financial issues that will be sorted out in a couple of days…” It now appears he may have been speaking figuratively.

On January 27, French ambassador to New Delhi, Francois Richier, put a deadline of four months for the price to be negotiated.

Today, Parrikar also confirmed that India had demanded offsets worth 50 per cent of the deal value, and that Dassault had agreed to that condition.

“We have resolved all the other issues. There were terms of guarantees, there were terms of supply, there were terms of how it will be done”, said Parrikar.

The defence minister denied that the window was open for buying more Rafale fighters, beyond the 36 being currently negotiated. “As of now, the negotiation is for 36 (fighters). There are many possibilities, but this deal is for 36”, he said.

When Prime Minister Narendra Modi, on a visit to Paris last April, requested for 36 Rafales, New Delhi and had Paris agreed the price would be less than what Dassault had quoted in response to the Indian tender of 2007 for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). Of those 126 fighters, the first 18 were to be supplied in “flyaway condition”, i.e. fully built. Since 36 Rafales are now being bought in “flyaway condition”, their per-piece price must be lower than what Dassault quoted for those 18 fighters.


The Indian Air Force had chosen the Rafale on January 31, 2012, in India’s tender for 126 MMRCA aircraft. However, in protracted price negotiations that followed, the defence ministry found problems in Dassault’s financial bid. Eventually, Modi chose to abandon the MMRCA tender, and instead buy 36 Rafales over-the-counter.
 

cannonfodder

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Good that you also posted it here.

Only one of them, F18 or Rafael must make it through otherwise we will end up having too many type of platforms. I hope we pit F-18 deal vs Rafael and get better deal through negotiations from either of them.. :biggrin2:

You see Tejas impact already :). We should carry on our work with Tejas MK2 and AMCA development.

No Rafale deal unless price is right: ParrikarParrikar
By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 19th Feb 16


Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar bluntly stated on Thursday that negotiations for buying 36 Rafale fighters from French aerospace vendor, Dassault, were deadlocked on the issue of price, and that no deal would be signed until the price was right.

Well-informed defence ministry sources that are close to the negotiation say there is a wide gulf between the two sides. “The difference between what France is demanding and what India is willing to pay is too large to bridge easily --- about 25 per cent.”

Business Standard understands that Dassault has quoted about Euro 12 billion (Rs 91,548 crore), while Indian negotiators are refusing to go above Euro 9 billion (Rs 68,499 crore).

Parrikar told India Today TV: “Price is the problem which has to be resolved. Unless I get the right price, I cannot sign.”

Debunking recent media articles that a deal was imminent, most recently in Hindustan Times on February 11, Parrikar said ironing out the remaining issues would take “a few months”.

Pressed on the question of time-frame, Parrikar responded: “You can’t commit yourself to a time, because this is not a negotiation for a few hundred crores. This is thousands of crores. I should not… put a time line on my price negotiation.”

On January 25, during his visit to Delhi, French President Francois Hollande declared after signing an inter-governmental agreement for the supply of 36 Rafales, “There are some financial issues that will be sorted out in a couple of days…” It now appears he may have been speaking figuratively.

On January 27, French ambassador to New Delhi, Francois Richier, put a deadline of four months for the price to be negotiated.

Today, Parrikar also confirmed that India had demanded offsets worth 50 per cent of the deal value, and that Dassault had agreed to that condition.

“We have resolved all the other issues. There were terms of guarantees, there were terms of supply, there were terms of how it will be done”, said Parrikar.

The defence minister denied that the window was open for buying more Rafale fighters, beyond the 36 being currently negotiated. “As of now, the negotiation is for 36 (fighters). There are many possibilities, but this deal is for 36”, he said.

When Prime Minister Narendra Modi, on a visit to Paris last April, requested for 36 Rafales, New Delhi and had Paris agreed the price would be less than what Dassault had quoted in response to the Indian tender of 2007 for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). Of those 126 fighters, the first 18 were to be supplied in “flyaway condition”, i.e. fully built. Since 36 Rafales are now being bought in “flyaway condition”, their per-piece price must be lower than what Dassault quoted for those 18 fighters.


The Indian Air Force had chosen the Rafale on January 31, 2012, in India’s tender for 126 MMRCA aircraft. However, in protracted price negotiations that followed, the defence ministry found problems in Dassault’s financial bid. Eventually, Modi chose to abandon the MMRCA tender, and instead buy 36 Rafales over-the-counter.
 
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tejas warrior

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Let me tell you about my understanding on all this.. (though I am not a expert)

Single Engine fighters : F-16 & Gripen are being pitched to make in India (actually assembled only with IP remaining with parent company) for their profit.

>> This will kill LCA mk2 and any future developments. Production will stop after 120 mk1-A with no new orders from import hungry IAF.

Dual engine fighters : F-18 & Rafael are being pitched to make in India (actually assembled only with IP remaining with parent company) for their profit.

>> This will kill the requirements for AMCA to a great extent as well development Funds will be getting dried.
 

tejas warrior

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Reasons Why the Modi govt stuck on Rafale
Posted on February 19, 2016 by Bharat Karnad
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar in a TV interview (to Karan Thapar) yesterday evening sounded very determined that 36 Rafales would be brought from Dassault Avions, France, and that Paris would have to meet Delhi’s stated price (not exceeding $7 billion, which figure, of course, he didn’t mention). In this context, when queried about the significance of the MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) signed when Hollande was here for the Republic Day parade, he stated that this document is “meaningful only to the extent that the procedure [for advancing the deal] is laid out.” The only relief for India, ironically, would be if the French too stick to their negotiating figure of $11+ billion.

The trouble with making price the decisive factor — “Price, he said, “is the only issue…is the problem”, and implied India would walk away from the deal unless India “gets the right price” — is that all the other negatives attending on this horrendous buy are sought to be ignored. While the Indian position is now firmed up, Parrikar’s support for the Rafale suggests that despite his instinct telling him to go in for many more Su-30MKIs obtainable for the same investment, the BJP regime feels bound to honour PM Narendra Modi’s word to Hollande, and is doing its mostest to get the deal done, whatever the other costs (such as complicating operations, logistics, infrastructure, etc) that the IAF and country will have to bear for decades to come.

This raises the question — what exactly is Paris’ quid for the Indian quo? Some well connected persons believe it is Hollande’s promise of supporting India’s candidature for a permanent seat in the UN Security Council, whenever that issue formally comes up for consideration. Realistically speaking, and short of the UN imploding as did the League of Nations in the 1930s when that body proved incapable of stopping Mussolini from occupying Ethiopia, Imperial Japan from absorbing Manchuria, and Hitler from taking over the Sudentanland region of Czechoslovakia, and a new world body is erected in its place, that is never. The provincial politician in Modi, however, seems to be acting as per the Gujarati trader’s credo of honouring a verbal commitment. Except the Rafale deal is in the external realm where “the word” counts for less than nothing, a fact-of-life the PM either does not understand and, if he does, does not quite appreciate. And India ends up paying the price. Any argument therefore about the uneconomical aspects of the Rafale deal are for the birds!

But why’s the IAF so dumb as to disregard the operational aspects and push so vehemently for the Rafale? In a previous piece, I had stated that for the unit cost of $270 million per Rafale, India could buy three LCAs @ $90 million or 2 Su-MKIs @ $130 million. Vice Admiral AK Singh, former FOC-in-C, Eastern Naval Command, and a stalwart of the military procurement process, called to say that my figures were, perhaps, for fully weaponised Tejas and Su-30 and, by way of more “correct” figures, mentioned that the cost of a clean Tejas (as released by HAL) is $30 million, and $50 million for a Su-30MKI. By the AK Singh calculus then the country can have NINE LCAs or FIVE Su-30s. Fully armed and equipped, the cost figures for these three aircraft get even more skewed. A basic weapons load (of A2A missiles & A2G rockets/bombs) will up the price of a Rafale to $400 million per aircraft, $50 million/Tejas, and $90 million/Su-30. Thus, all-up cost ($400 million) of a Rafale will actually fetch IAF EIGHT fully-armed Tejas and 4.5 Su-30s.

In my books and writings have stressed the importance of quantity over quality, and how an exorbitantly-priced Rafale, assuming it is fielded in war considering the Indian military’s inclination to not deploy its most prized platforms during hostilities (recall Vikrant confined to Vizag harbour during the 1965 War! Mirage 2000 was featured in Kargil because of Vajpayee govt’s order to IAF not to cross LoC) would be swarmed and killed by the more numerous Pakistan-assembled, Russian MiG-21 design Chinese rejigged JF-17s, say, each costing Islamabad no more than $22 million. (The $22 million price tag for the JF-17 being disclosed to VADM Singh by retd PAF AVM Shehzad Chaudhury at a recent 2nd-track meet.)

Indian armed services are known for stodginess, not strategic imagination and operational verve. And the civilian bureaucrats running the show in MOD are entirely innocent of any specialized knowledge. So one can pretty much know the quality of advice provided the national security-wise unlettered politicians. Even so, one expected Parrikar to be a bit more on the ball, use his common sense and publicly available information to +try and convince Modi about the sheer wastefulness of the Rafale deal, and decide on more reasonable, money-saving, options (including purchasing Mirage 2000s from UAE and Qatar, as proposed in an earlier blog).

Then again, just may be, IIT grads are not all they are cracked up to be.
 

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