India to select one or more fighter aircraft to be built by private sector

Superdefender

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My bet is on AMCA. Its performance will be superb compared to Rafale and it will be less costly too. My advice - scrap Rafale deal. Speed up AMCA development and get its IOC by 2023/24. Meanwhile formulate how to improve/ramp up production rate in such a way that when AMCA enters, we can see atleast 4 AMCAs coming out of HAL facility per month, 48 annually.
 

garg_bharat

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Please read my earlier posts under garg-india.

Everything that I said has come true.

Yes fighters will be built by private sector.

Next is transport aircrafts to be built by private sector.

Military vehicles of all kinds including tanks and navy ships are in line for private sector as well.
 

garg_bharat

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My bet is on AMCA. Its performance will be superb compared to Rafale and it will be less costly too. My advice - scrap Rafale deal. Speed up AMCA development and get its IOC by 2023/24. Meanwhile formulate how to improve/ramp up production rate in such a way that when AMCA enters, we can see atleast 4 AMCAs coming out of HAL facility per month, 48 annually.
You are obviously wrong.

Hal has made a lot of mistakes in product ionization of LCA tejas.

Hal is nowhere near ensuring a steady supply of tejas where it had huge amount of lead time.

The government does not have adequate confidence in hal.
 

smestarz

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My bet is on AMCA. Its performance will be superb compared to Rafale and it will be less costly too. My advice - scrap Rafale deal. Speed up AMCA development and get its IOC by 2023/24. Meanwhile formulate how to improve/ramp up production rate in such a way that when AMCA enters, we can see atleast 4 AMCAs coming out of HAL facility per month, 48 annually.
48 Annually is a very big rate and unless we have orders of say 500+ this rate of production will be impossible.
AMCA will have the advantage of development and adding new ideas and designs which Rafale cannot, Rafale can be modified a bit but cannot be changed much. Being Indian, the AMCA will be our plane and whatever the cost, we have to buy and use it. Surely it might not be as expensive as Rafale but the design should be modular to ensure that maintenance and servicing is easier and cheap
 

smestarz

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You are obviously wrong.

Hal has made a lot of mistakes in product ionization of LCA tejas.

Hal is nowhere near ensuring a steady supply of tejas where it had huge amount of lead time.

The government does not have adequate confidence in hal.
Now its new Govt and this Govt has confidence in HAL at least they are going to ensure that HAL delivers what they say and with Mk1A we already see the change in HAL and also attitude of IAF which is now ready to play ball
 

Superdefender

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48 Annually is a very big rate and unless we have orders of say 500+ this rate of production will be impossible.
AMCA will have the advantage of development and adding new ideas and designs which Rafale cannot, Rafale can be modified a bit but cannot be changed much. Being Indian, the AMCA will be our plane and whatever the cost, we have to buy and use it. Surely it might not be as expensive as Rafale but the design should be modular to ensure that maintenance and servicing is easier and cheap
Then is there no way to increase production rate? Why? We have so much manpower! I donot want rate like US, then tell me atleast how to ramp up production close to China....come on guys, our GDP in PPP will touch $9 trillion in couple of months!
 

kaboom!

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Yes, u are right mate,
what is going on I do not understand. We already have an offer from Russian offer of full TOT of FGFA for 3 billion dollar, cant we work on it, Look at the list of the planes that we have( Su-30MKI + Jaguars + Mig29 + Mirage2000) and 3 to 5 more types are almost getting in(Tejas 1 and 2, rafale, AMCA FGFA) India still need one or two more types of planes?

If we look at US they want this issue to be sorted out by having a common platform for all types of planes F-35 B, C etc.... Why arent we heading that way?

Why dont we develop or go to a consultant and have our air superior Tejas, naval Tejas, Bomber Tejas, special ops Tejas etc or something like this. Why they want to complicate the fleet maintenance.

I really doubt if there is any other country in the world with such various types of planes in their forces.

Still my advice is scrap Rafales and optimize su 30 for all versions(I believe that SU 30 is already very good plane in all roles) and have AMCA and Tejas MK 2. whatever plane but platform must be common that will save us millions which we can spend on R&D.


Am I right?
Idont think rafale will be scrapped.....when we had cancelled the 126 mmrca tender that was the time to cancel rafale deal in its entirety, and we would not have moved ahead with the 36 rafale deal we are currently pursuing.
I guess France is becoming a vital strategic ally of ours considering the deals we are signing with them in other areas and rafale deal is a part of/integral to that partnership.

Regarding the American fighters....we will have to sign certain agreements with the US like CISMOA,LSA and BECA....which is highly intrusive of the privacy and sovereignty of the country's armed forces.
Hence I'm strictly against ANY american fighter aircraft for this very reason.

And as saurav jha has said-


I guess this(what is in the tweet) is what is happening.
 

Immanuel

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Rafale scrapping depends entirely on Dassault, if they play ball and drop the price of the 36 fighters to around 7-8 billion including weapons, offsets etc. then it will go through and if they play their cards right they can have 'Make in India' for these but chances are not that good as the cost of the Rafale over life-time is well over 220 million not including a Mid Life Upgrade which looking at Mirage deal can be as high as 60 million per bird. If IAF/MOD come to their senses, they will cancel this deal.

40 more MKI are coming, 100 Tejas are coming. If the Rafale deal is cancelled then the only aircraft that makes sense for 'Make in India' is the Super Hornet International which offers a lot of off the shelf goodies, engine commonality with LCA MK-2, 'reasonable' life cycle costs, its a jack of all trades and with USN operating it for another 25 years, a good enough bet. Buying from the US doesn't mean we need to sign CISMOA. That agreement is currently being re-drafted, hopefully the next version is better. Not signing it has no effect except the fighters would then have Indian home made IFFs, Data links, Comms, etc. which is good anyways.

PAKFA 'Make in India' will happen at a later stage (we may acquire around 60 off the shelf and the rest made in India post 2020 after the MKI production ceases at Nasik.
 

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America's Lockheed Martin is the first to throw it's hat in the ring with offer to manufacture the F 16 in India

SINGAPORE: US fighter jet maker Lockheed Martin on Thursday said it is ready to manufacture F-16 aircraft in India and supports the ongoing talks between the two countries to set up the first manufacturing facility, one of the largest projects under the 'Make in India' initiative.
"We are ready to manufacture F-16 in India and support the Make in India initiative," Phil Shaw, chief executive of Lockheed Martin India Private Ltd told reporters at the Singapore Airshow 2016.
But the American corporation's executive did not commit any time-frame to have the plant operational, saying the group supports the ongoing government-to-government talks.
Shaw expressed strong interest in having the F-16 made in India "soon" without elaborating on the time-frame, linking it to the progress of the government-to-government talks.
Currently, Lockheed Martin manufactures one jet a month from its plant in the US and has a series of contracts and joint ventures in India with over 1,000 employees.
It has supplied six C130J Super Hercules planes to India in 2011 and will be delivering another six helicopters next year.
Industry observers said Lockheed Martin's "wish to manufacture F-16 is based on the strong demand from the Indian armed forces and would want to lower the cost of the planes for exports by using the low-cost capability in India".
"Certainly, Lockheed Martin would want to exploit the engineering skill and low cost capabilities in India and make F-16 very competitive in the fighter jet markets," a well-informed source said.


"Both the US government and Lockheed Martin see the advantage of placing a manufacturing base in India and make F-16 affordable for emerging markets," the source said.
The making of F-16, which will be among the largest projects under the Make in India initiative, will be conditional to the Indian government making contractual commitment to buy the fighter jets for its armed forces, said the source.


"Washington, in return, would ensure technology transfer to the Indian engineering sector and a huge boost to Indian exports," he said.
If the two government reach an agreement this year or 2017, putting aside all differences on the mega project and the US' move to supply eight F-16 to Pakistan, Lockheed Martin could roll out the first made in India jet in 2019-2020, said the source.
Lockheed Martin has already decided on India as its best option for low-cost and highly qualified engineering workforce, and the final go on this is dependent on approval from New Delhi and Washington.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...e-F-16-jets-in-India/articleshow/51036912.cms
 

smestarz

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Then is there no way to increase production rate? Why? We have so much manpower! I donot want rate like US, then tell me atleast how to ramp up production close to China....come on guys, our GDP in PPP will touch $9 trillion in couple of months!
Out of Few of the things that might limit the production will be the ENGINE. We do not have the engine and so contract has to be made for the timely supply of the engines..
We have a good economy, but then only Tejas 1A is not the priorities, there are naval ships, tanks etc
 

A chauhan

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Gripen = Zero chances since it's smaller and have almost same config as LCA.

F-16 = No, since Pakistan has already mastered its capabilities and weaknesses, will be a suicidal mission for IAF.

F-18 = May be Yes, since it can be used on IAF and Navy too, and it has a very good set of avionics.

Typhoon = too costly.

MIG-35 = perhaps no, since it's an old aircraft and MIG wont be able to deliver it at the speed we need.

So my bet is on F-18, BTW this step by MoD can force Dasaault to lower Rafael's price.
 

A chauhan

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What about euro fighter? Do you think it has a chance to make a comeback? @A chauhan
I have mentioned that in my last post as Typhoon (Eurofighter Typhoon) is too costly even costlier than the Rafael, I don't think we can afford its price ,IIRC it won the MMRCA competition ? defeating Rafael but considering cost Rafael was chosen.

Yes we can think about EF Typhoon if they bring down the price at or below Rafael's cost, but that is highly unlikely.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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I have mentioned that in my last post as Typhoon (Eurofighter Typhoon) is too costly even costlier than the Rafael, I don't think we can afford its price ,IIRC it won the MMRCA competition ? defeating Rafael but considering cost Rafael was chosen.

Yes we can think about EF Typhoon if they bring down the price at or below Rafael's cost, but that is highly unlikely.
But cost was calculated at that time. Is Typhoon still expensive than Rafale?
 

A chauhan

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ashdoc

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Gripen = Zero chances since it's smaller and have almost same config as LCA.

F-16 = No, since Pakistan has already mastered its capabilities and weaknesses, will be a suicidal mission for IAF.

F-18 = May be Yes, since it can be used on IAF and Navy too, and it has a very good set of avionics.

Typhoon = too costly.

MIG-35 = perhaps no, since it's an old aircraft and MIG wont be able to deliver it at the speed we need.

So my bet is on F-18, BTW this step by MoD can force Dasaault to lower Rafael's price.

my bet is on the f 18 too---

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-india-f-18-super-hornets.75336/#post-1130305
 

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