India To Buy Attack Drones From Israel For $400 Million: Report

[warrior monk]

the j10b is an exelent example of a 4+ gen fighter
the j31 isa 5th gen example and a few years away from having the ws-13 engine
the j11d is a 4+ fighter jet it got an indigenous engine on it and one that has a full combustion so theres no smoke trail same with the ws-13
j20 5th gen fighter not much available on that yet still in testing/development.

5 years is a good conservative estimate. all you need to do, is go to an arms expo to see china tech.

China is making progress but it has a lot of catching up to do with the west
WS-13 is new untested turbofan with a decent LBPR but with a low life span as reported from some sources though the sources may be under estimating it . The TeT of the engine is only 1,377 °C which is lower than western engines and the dry thrust of 52 KN can hardly be called western standard even Kaveri of India achieved it .TWR of 7.8 is low for a 2500 lb engine which proves that Chinese have yet to master the SCB nickel based super alloy of 3rd generation which has 6.3 % rhenium , 8 % cobalt and 4% chromium for high TeT . I think they also have have yet to master the TBC for the blades . Therefore I highly doubt Chinese aircraft ability to take off without reheating with the inefficient engine which is exactly the problems we Indians had and not able to do high g maneuvers . This will also reduce the engine TBO . Infact WS -13 is a crappy engine with a inefficient Brayton cycle , India's Kaveri has better specs.
Lets not compare the air frame stress of Chinese fighters with western fighter . I bet no Asian made fighter aircraft have more than 4500 hr air frame stress limit even with low g maneuvers and low AoA with a depleted flight envelope , Tejas has a 4000 to 4500 hrs air frame stress limit . Russian fighters have 6000 hrs air frame stress and Western fighters have more than 10000 hrs air frame stress. For eg Pakistani F-16 have stress limit of 8000 hrs compared to 6000 hrs for India's Russian fighters. So no comparison between western origin fighters and china's.
Chinese AESA radars probably use GaAs T/R modules compared to GaN which is an advance solid state RF power amplifiers which has a higher break down voltage compared to GaAs modules of China . GaAs based T/R modules will melt and turn into goo and lose their semi conductor properties at higher power.
Chinese AESA radar systems’ heat flux and thermal loads are not comparable to western systems , It is bad that they are using GaAs modules with low breakdown voltage and top of that I don't think their thermal load and heat flux system is efficient . In surmise the Chinese modules will be inferior to western modules and will have less radiating power so will have a tough time against a stealth fighter.Lets not even talk about their packaging capability for T/R modules .F-22's AESA uses 2000 T/R modules with a higher DSP processor which uses two-phase liquid cooling technologies .
I can go on comparing Chinese systems which look good on paper with Western systems but we have deviated enough from topic.
The Chinese are making a lot of progress but are behind western tech by a significant margin.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

the iai harop is a suicide drone, the iai harpy can only carry a 32kg bomb


the wing loong is a male ucav it's characteristics are more to that of the mq-1 reaper. correct the wing loong is for drone strikes and nothing more, this is because it not able to carry the large sensors and the payload over a long distance.

the ch-5 is more to the mq-9 standards i am told this will be universal or multi purpose.

Harpy and harop are anti radiation drones/UCAV . They are designed to take out radar installations over a wide area. Why are you missing this point?

 

[sorcerer]

@blue marlin
Let me clear the attempted "misunderstanding"..the news article is about Ch-5 and not Ch-3..
YOu know it..anybody who reads the previous posts know it.



Yeah..you started it..when confronted with proofs you do the paki dance.
Dont deviate...cuz thats good for the whole of pakistan's hypothetical claims..

 

[hit&run]

these pakis are soo insecure about Indias tech and capabilities..they lie..bitch..and latch on to China.to stay afloat in their hypothetically safe world.

.........................................................

 

[blue marlin]

China is making progress but it has a lot of catching up to do with the west
WS-13 is new untested turbofan with a decent LBPR but with a low life span as reported from some sources though the sources may be under estimating it . The TeT of the engine is only 1,377 °C which is lower than western engines and the dry thrust of 52 KN can hardly be called western standard even Kaveri of India achieved it .TWR of 7.8 is low for a 2500 lb engine which proves that Chinese have yet to master the SCB nickel based super alloy of 3rd generation which has 6.3 % rhenium , 8 % cobalt and 4% chromium for high TeT . I think they also have have yet to master the TBC for the blades . Therefore I highly doubt Chinese aircraft ability to take off without reheating with the inefficient engine which is exactly the problems we Indians had and not able to do high g maneuvers . This will also reduce the engine TBO . Infact WS -13 is a crappy engine with a inefficient Brayton cycle , India's Kaveri has better specs.

Lets not compare the air frame stress of Chinese fighters with western fighter . I bet no Asian made fighter aircraft have more than 4500 hr air frame stress limit even with low g maneuvers and low AoA with a depleted flight envelope , Tejas has a 4000 to 4500 hrs air frame stress limit . Russian fighters have 6000 hrs air frame stress and Western fighters have more than 10000 hrs air frame stress. For eg Pakistani F-16 have stress limit of 8000 hrs compared to 6000 hrs for India's Russian fighters. So no comparison between western origin fighters and china's.
Chinese AESA radars probably use GaAs T/R modules compared to GaN which is an advance solid state RF power amplifiers which has a higher break down voltage compared to GaAs modules of China . GaAs based T/R modules will melt and turn into goo and lose their semi conductor properties at higher power.
Chinese AESA radar systems’ heat flux and thermal loads are not comparable to western systems , It is bad that they are using GaAs modules with low breakdown voltage and top of that I don't think their thermal load and heat flux system is efficient . In surmise the Chinese modules will be inferior to western modules and will have less radiating power so will have a tough time against a stealth fighter.Lets not even talk about their packaging capability for T/R modules .F-22's AESA uses 2000 T/R modules with a higher DSP processor which uses two-phase liquid cooling technologies .
I can go on comparing Chinese systems which look good on paper with Western systems but we have deviated enough from topic.
The Chinese are making a lot of progress but are behind western tech by a significant margin.

ws-13 is already being tested. this was confirm in the paris airshow. also the 52kn dry thrust you got from wikipedia is from a prototype engine. last i heard they were going to uprate it to 75kn dry and 100 wet. the kaveri is not even viable, last time i checked drdo is going to drop the idea of having an indigenous engine after snecma stopped helping you as the kaveri shares similarities with the m88.

what! western planes have a 1000hr life span which jet are you talking about? the f16 is 8000 hours yes, and the eft is 6000 hours whilst the rafale is 7000 hours. i would assume you meant after an mlu.

also assuming is not good enough. i can assume your lca can take down an mki, but it cant. im not going to comment on the Chinese aesa radar program, as it doesnt concern you.

yes your right, the thread has deviated to much

 

[blue marlin]

Harpy and harop are anti radiation drones/UCAV . They are designed to take out radar installations over a wide area. Why are you missing this point?

because you ask for a ucav not an anti radiation drone. if you want to bring that up then india does not have a ucav's, but anti radar uav's

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Blue marlin can you provide a link where Chinese have used ws-13 in an inducted plane?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

because you ask for a ucav not an anti radiation drone. if you want to bring that up then india does not have a ucav's, but anti radar uav's

I am going to debate something this silly.

 

[Mikesingh]

a little birdy from pakistan told me that china is going to sell the ch-5 to pakistan and it will include tot.
View attachment 6015

The Chinese will even sell their a$$es to Pakistan as long as the Pakistanis keep fingering India thereby protecting their Southern front by keeping India busy with the Pakis.

Heck, they even gifted half of their 50 Chinese-made low tech JF Thunders to Pakistan recently. Like buy two and get one free!

 

[blue marlin]

@blue marlin
Let me clear the attempted "misunderstanding"..the news article is about Ch-5 and not Ch-3..
YOu know it..anybody who reads the previous posts know it.



Yeah..you started it..when confronted with proofs you do the paki dance.
Dont deviate...cuz thats good for the whole of pakistan's hypothetical claims..

yeh i got that. i was talking about the ch-5 not the ch-3. dont cry darling.

anyhow the uav your getting, the IAI Eitan

$400 million for ten drones. it's high if you think of the cost per unit($40 million) but then it would include command and control stations, servicing, training and parts. and not to forget the ground based radar too as shown below.

tbh i would prefer the elbit hermes 900, now that is a ucav

 

[warrior monk]

ws-13 is already being tested. this was confirm in the paris airshow. also the 52kn dry thrust you got from wikipedia is from a prototype engine. last i heard they were going to uprate it to 75kn dry and 100 wet. the kaveri is not even viable, last time i checked drdo is going to drop the idea of having an indigenous engine after snecma stopped helping you as the kaveri shares similarities with the m88.

what! western planes have a 1000hr life span which jet are you talking about? the f16 is 8000 hours yes, and the eft is 6000 hours whilst the rafale is 7000 hours. i would assume you meant after an mlu.

also assuming is not good enough. i can assume your lca can take down an mki, but it cant. im not going to comment on the Chinese aesa radar program, as it doesnt concern you.

yes your right, the thread has deviated to much

After MLU western fighters will have 18000 hrs of air frame life Chinese can't even think of that standard . A country that has not mastered 3rd Gen SCBs I highly doubt China can make powerful engines of more than 8 TWR and I don't even reply to Chinese fanboys and western exaggeration of Chinese tech . Smokeless engine is due to the low intake and low power generation in the combuster so complete combustion . Who said Kaveri is being scrapped don't believe those journos who write drivel and have no clue of what they are writing .
The kabini core is being taken out to be re designed and that you will not find in newspapers. the K 9 core will be used for different purpose the k 10 core is going to be redesigned . Yes Kaveri has similarities with snecma so does the Chinese with Russian cores.
Rest what you wrote I won't even reply

 

[blue marlin]

After MLU western fighters will have 18000 hrs of air frame life Chinese can't even think of that standard . A country that has not mastered 3rd Gen SCBs I highly doubt China can make powerful engines of more than 8 TWR and I don't even reply to Chinese fanboys and western exaggeration of Chinese tech . Smokeless engine is due to the low intake and low power generation in the combuster so complete combustion . Who said Kaveri is being scrapped don't believe those journos who write drivel and have no clue of what they are writing .
The kabini core is being taken out to be re designed and that you will not find in newspapers. the K 9 core will be used for different purpose the k 10 core is going to be redesigned . Yes Kaveri has similarities with snecma so does the Chinese with Russian cores.
Rest what you wrote I won't even reply

18000 hours, interesting. hell why not make it 20000 and call it a day, your figures are inflated way too much. also it depends on the jet in the first place. you said western fighters. the eft with mlu is about 12000+ hours thats western the rafale is similar too.

you remark to low intake is stupid. how can a low intake determine if the engine has a full combustion or not. there are aids that help the engine to achieve this and that would be a dsi(thats what you may have meant)

the ws10a produces 120-140 kn of thrust wet, now you tell me if that's a small engine

http://www.oneindia.com/bengaluru/o...roject-gtre-gets-revival-package-1565505.html

 

[blue marlin]

The Chinese will even sell their a$$es to Pakistan as long as the Pakistanis keep fingering India thereby protecting their Southern front by keeping India busy with the Pakis.

Heck, they even gifted half of their 50 Chinese-made low tech JF Thunders to Pakistan recently. Like buy two and get one free!

oooo really is that the plan!? i love comments like these. they demonstrates one's stupidly and their naivety.
there there lad dont worry. one day you will get some brains but i can't promise it though.

 

[warrior monk]

18000 hours, interesting. hell why not make it 20000 and call it a day, your figures are inflated way too much. also it depends on the jet in the first place. you said western fighters. the eft with mlu is about 12000+ hours thats western the rafale is similar too.

you remark to low intake is stupid. how can a low intake determine if the engine has a full combustion or not. there are aids that help the engine to achieve this and that would be a dsi(thats what you may have meant)

the ws10a produces 120-140 kn of thrust wet, now you tell me if that's a small engine

http://www.oneindia.com/bengaluru/o...roject-gtre-gets-revival-package-1565505.html

A quick google search will give you this , there are others where Boeing even claims of upto 32000 hr though I think they got carried away with the sales pitch .

As far as Kaveri engine is concerned please read the link you posted properly .
Let me tell you a little bit about Kaveri engine
Its main job was
to aim for the design various core design parameters (e.g. OPR, TET, BPR, Combustor efficiency, supersonic compressor regimes, ultra-low aspect ratio blades, blisk manufacturing etc)
And as far as material science is concerned
technology demonstration (e.g 2nd and 3rd Gen SCBs, DS based later-stage compressor blades, 1st gen SCB based , Ceramic and Polymer Matrix based combustors and static-engine parts etc etc)
It was 98 % successful

Kaveri has mainly three problems
1) BLISK
2) SCB 3rd generation turbine
3) TBC ( Thermal barrier coating )

They are working on these three problems which the article hints and the improving the bypass ratio the engine is good to go. Though it will take time and mastering SCB is tough only 3 countries US , Russia and Europeans have this tech no one else .

DSI is for boundry layer control to control drag for a good lift force

 

[sorcerer]

@
blue marlin
yeh i got that. i was talking about the ch-5 not the ch-3. dont cry darling.

Sure thing..I was telling about exactly that thing...There are Ch-5 articles and Ch-3 articles..on previous posts.
You still havent got it..The article was about Ch-5 with Reaper!..you ignorant Bitch!!.

Darling?

.
I have seen your troll on other posts trying to get guys attention and hitting on them!!! ...

Tho single I am not desperate for your kind...I only do humans with a vagina.

Dont stoop too low and flash your pink panty here..do it somewhere else...bitch..

===


Back on the topic
$400 Mil.. India can afford it..there is also a mention of ToT..so there could be cost involved.

Theres a lot of news between India and Israel on collaborative projects.

IAI Courts India with Offsets, Tech Transfer


Through offsets, technology transfer and promises of licensed production, IAI hopes to secure new projects and follow-on deals to those that have fortified its backlog by billions of dollars over the past decade.


IAI rarely publicizes its defense dealings with New Delhi and never reports annual revenue generated from cooperative development projects or export sales.

The state-owned firm did not disclose its latest $280 million order for Heron UAVs, or the prior two rounds of IAI-built unmanned reconnaissance and targeting systems sold to New Delhi over the past eight years.

Nor did it acknowledge major sales of Phalcon spy planes, Green Pine radars and joint development of the Barak-8 air- and missile-defense system until reports started appearing in the Indian media years after orders were firmly registered in company backlog.

Similarly, IAI seldom initiates details of its offset and joint venture agreements with Indian industry, deferring to local partners to determine what specifics should enter the public domain.

"We don't identify customers. It's not secret, but its politically incorrect," IAI Chairman Rafi Maor said.

"In India, we can now talk about Barak-8; and it's known that we have UAVs and special mission aircraft there. But other than that, it's a matter of ethics that the customer discloses these projects, not us," he said.

Maor declined to discuss annual revenue generated from the Indian market, nor how much of the $800 million IAI receives annually in customer-funded research and development investment comes from New Delhi.


http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...s-technology-export-russia-phalcon-/22843269/

A deal which happened before with ToT.
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Israels_IAI_wins_958M_India_drone_deal_999.html

Israel Next to Consider Making Arms in India as Ties Improve
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...sider-making-weapons-in-india-as-ties-improve
===

Tho not related to this particular deal.the talk about ToT is very real in this case because it has happened before with Israel and they are confident about India's approaches and adjustments so far.

 

[sorcerer]

Israel Aerospace Industries Drones - Heron and Harop

 

[SajeevJino]

.

So still we have many doubts

Recon Drone
Battlefield UAV
Battlefield attack drone
HALE UAV
MALE UAV
MALE Attack drone
Target Drone

So called UCAV - The real machine like nEUROn , Avenger, X 47 B

 

[blue marlin]

A quick google search will give you this , there are others where Boeing even claims of upto 32000 hr though I think they got carried away with the sales pitch .

As far as Kaveri engine is concerned please read the link you posted properly .
Let me tell you a little bit about Kaveri engine
Its main job was
to aim for the design various core design parameters (e.g. OPR, TET, BPR, Combustor efficiency, supersonic compressor regimes, ultra-low aspect ratio blades, blisk manufacturing etc)
And as far as material science is concerned
technology demonstration (e.g 2nd and 3rd Gen SCBs, DS based later-stage compressor blades, 1st gen SCB based , Ceramic and Polymer Matrix based combustors and static-engine parts etc etc)
It was 98 % successful

Kaveri has mainly three problems
1) BLISK
2) SCB 3rd generation turbine
3) TBC ( Thermal barrier coating )

They are working on these three problems which the article hints and the improving the bypass ratio the engine is good to go. Though it will take time and mastering SCB is tough only 3 countries US , Russia and Europeans have this tech no one else .

DSI is for boundry layer control to control drag for a good lift force

so your 12000 hr life span is 6000 hours short of your 18000. however kudos to for finding the chart

so think what you think about the kaveri

 

[blue marlin]

Sure thing..I was telling about exactly that thing...There are Ch-5 articles and Ch-3 articles..on previous posts.
You still havent got it..The article was about Ch-5 with Reaper!..you ignorant Bitch!!.



.
I have seen your troll on other posts trying to get guys attention and hitting on them!!! ...

Tho single I am not desperate for your kind...I only do humans with a vagina.

Dont stoop too low and flash your pink panty here..do it somewhere else...bitch..
.

dont worry i'm straight and spoken for. just make sure you have vagina with consent :biggrin2:

ok now i will quote your replies related to the thread only.
regards

 

[warrior monk]

so your 12000 hr life span is 6000 hours short of your 18000. however kudos to for finding the chart

so think what you think about the kaveri

I took you for a smart guy anyways this is the figure for 1994 we know by now that F-15 with average to high load get far more than the 250 hr annual usage since 2001 due to America's adventure in Muslim countries due to war on terror and the various bombing campaigns which are still continuing factoring that that US is planning to use them beyond 2030 their airframe stress is beyond 20000 hrs .
It doesn't matter what you think or anybody else thinks about the Kaveri program well that is the truth .Anyways I am done with this discussion.