India successfully test-fires supersonic interceptor missile

Screambowl

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Where did you guys get that figure?
The S400 is MACH 14.

Even the first series of S300 could reach MACH 6.

that is the target's velocity NOT S400's. At mach 14 you cannot be so accurate that you hit a target. That's why CEP of ICBM is always in meters.
 

power_monger

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Where did you guys get that figure?
The S400 is MACH 14.

Even the first series of S300 could reach MACH 6.
Now you are really smoking. mach 14 missiles? Didn't you realize if russians had mach 14 SAM missile, why would they work on brahmos 2 and still struggle to get upto mach 6?
 

no smoking

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AnantS

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^ LOL Can anybody make sense of what the ten cent Bot just wrote?"
 

Chinmoy

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^ LOL Can anybody make sense of what the ten cent Bot just wrote?"
Actually what @no smoking has quoted is true. The target velocity of S-400 is stated to be Mach 15 or so. But now you have to understand what is target velocity or Max target speed in this case.

It is the maximum speed at which the system could operate. It doesn't mean that it does operate in that speed. Actually Max Target Speed is a factor of 5 to that of operating speed.

In layman term, in a car the max target speed is set at 240km/h. It means you could attain a speed of 240 km/h in that car. But does it operate at that speed normally. It does operate at a range of 50 to 60 km/h in normal circumstances. 240kmph is a factor 5 for the normal speed scenarios.

In same way, S400's max target velocity is that of Mach 15 (source wikipedia), but under normal circumstances, it would operate in Mach 5/6. But it doesn't mean that it can't operate in Mach 13 or 15.
 

Screambowl

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:facepalm:

It is the first I see someone trying to compare a air-defence missile to ICBM. Kid, they are working with technological route.

http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2015/03/11/how_russias_s-400_makes_the_f-35_obsolete_41895
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34976537

During my signal processing lecture we dealth with all this max target velocities.

It is the velocity of object which has to be targetted. This is the same term when we operate radars.

Because at those speeds radar has to be operated correctly to get the process gain accurately, which is installed in a Missile.

Formula is tB <= c/2Vmax, where tB is time band with product.


For a Mach 3 if we calculate, the process gain will be 51.7dB. Greater the Vmax, lesser the process gain.

This is the another reason, why at Mach14 radars will miss the Target!! And Hence ICBM has CEP in 1 digit or two.
 

Chinmoy

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During my signal processing lecture we dealth with all this max target velocities.

It is the velocity of object which has to be targetted. This is the same term when we operate radars.

Because at those speeds radar has to be operated correctly to get the process gain accurately, which is installed in a Missile.

Formula is tB <= c/2Vmax, where tB is time band with product.


For a Mach 3 if we calculate, the process gain will be 51.7dB. Greater the Vmax, lesser the process gain.

This is the another reason, why at Mach14 radars will miss the Target!! And Hence ICBM has CEP in 1 digit or two.
It means like all other systems, S400 too is unable to intercept any reentry vehicle............????
 

Screambowl

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It means like all other systems, S400 too is unable to intercept any reentry vehicle............????
It may or may not intercept RV. It is based on it's probabilty to kill and capability of homing radar. But It itself will not fly at Mach 14.
 

Chinmoy

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It may or may not intercept RV. It is based on it's probabilty to kill and capability of homing radar. But It itself will not fly at Mach 14.
No way it would fly at Mach 14, not atleast with rocket boosters. But going by what you have described about Max Target Velocity, RV would travel at High hypersonic speed. So engaging them at that stage would be near impossible for any system.

So with its max range of 400Km, is S400 a real ABM? It seems good only for IRBM or MRBM in missiles.
 

Screambowl

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No way it would fly at Mach 14, not atleast with rocket boosters. But going by what you have described about Max Target Velocity, RV would travel at High hypersonic speed. So engaging them at that stage would be near impossible for any system.

So with its max range of 400Km, is S400 a real ABM? It seems good only for IRBM or MRBM in missiles.

If the radar tracks the RV well then it can may or may not kill. Not necesarily utilizing it's own radar but calculating the most probable path of RV in microseconds and coming on it's way. Rest is luck!

That's why kill probabilty is important here.

India should try the ABM hitting an Agni in it's terminal phase.
 

Chinmoy

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If the radar tracks the RV well then it can may or may not kill. Not necesarily utilizing it's own radar but calculating the most probable path of RV in microseconds and coming on it's way. Rest is luck!

That's why kill probabilty is important here.

India should try the ABM hitting an Agni in it's terminal phase.
But I would still be skeptic when it comes to hitting RV. You cant leave your defence to luck. May be thats the reason why a salvo is needed in such a situation.

I am more for some long range ABM with higher operating altitude. Say 80 to 100km in altitude and 1000 km in range (improbable). But recently while going through development history of PDV, found its range stated as 2000km. How come?
 

Screambowl

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But I would still be skeptic when it comes to hitting RV. You cant leave your defence to luck. May be thats the reason why a salvo is needed in such a situation.

I am more for some long range ABM with higher operating altitude. Say 80 to 100km in altitude and 1000 km in range (improbable). But recently while going through development history of PDV, found its range stated as 2000km. How come?
The range of 2000km means. It can intercept ICBM/IRBM which has range of 2000km.

The only way till now , is kill the missile before its terminal phase.
 

HariPrasad-1

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This was development flight, lot of earlier tests were successful and assuming it has failed, it does not matter, we have to work hard on this any way.

Now we should focus on RV target rather then on Prithvi size target. We have all the building blocks, all we need is to do tests and see if present tech can take out A1 missile RV.

As one of members said we should test from A&N towards the Kalam test range to get required data.
An LRSAM Based 300 KM range SAM is in making. When it will be ready, It will be the best Ultra long range SAM in the world like the LRSAM is the best missile in its class. We need to put a very high speed dual pulse motor into it and incorporate the technologies of LRSAM. We need to have a longer range version of AKASH. I have been hearing about it since 2010.
 

Chinmoy

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The range of 2000km means. It can intercept ICBM/IRBM which has range of 2000km.

The only way till now , is kill the missile before its terminal phase.
Then I would like to quote from one of the above links which @no smoking had posted
Manufacturer: Almaz-Antey arms firm; Deployment: Hmeimim airbase near Latakia - entered service in Russia in 2007; Range: 400km (248 miles); Speed: up to 4.8km (3 miles) per second; Max target height: 30km - can track hundreds of targets simultaneously; Types of target: aircraft, cruise missiles, medium-range missiles, drones, other airborne surveillance systems. (Sources: RIA Novosti, Russian 1TV.ru)
S400 with range of 400Km and still considered to be an ABM that too in the category of ICBM? Confusing.........
 

Screambowl

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Then I would like to quote from one of the above links which @no smoking had posted


S400 with range of 400Km and still considered to be an ABM that too in the category of ICBM? Confusing.........

S400 is not an ICBM, but ICBM killer, because it can intercept targets launched 2000kms away as the reation time is less and detection is wide. Because every ICBM has a typical and its own trajectory.
 

AnantS

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Actually what @no smoking has quoted is true. The target velocity of S-400 is stated to be Mach 15 or so. But now you have to understand what is target velocity or Max target speed in this case.

It is the maximum speed at which the system could operate. It doesn't mean that it does operate in that speed. Actually Max Target Speed is a factor of 5 to that of operating speed.
<Snip>.
No @Chinmoy, you got it wrong. @Screambowl is right. Max Target Speed, is the speed at which hostile target has been detected and can be engaged by missile system. Wikipedia does not state what has been mentioned is Approaching Target Speed or Receding Target Speed. In Most probable case, its the Approaching Target Speed that has been mentioned
 

Chinmoy

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S400 is not an ICBM, but ICBM killer, because it can intercept targets launched 2000kms away as the reation time is less and detection is wide. Because every ICBM has a typical and its own trajectory.
What I meant is that previously in this forum some members did quoted S400 as an anti ballastic missile (which it is) which would be able to take out an ICBM.

But going through its range, we could say that its operational range is 400km max. Now with that sort of range, it would be an ABM against SRBM and MRBMs only. Against any IRBM or ICBM its range would be too short.
 

Chinmoy

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How India’s Missile Defence System Can Take Down Pakistan

Snapshot

Given the Pakistani obsession with matching India weapon for weapon, it is likely Islamabad will try and develop a Made in Pakistan BMD. At the same time, it will attempt to buy systems from outside as a hedge against failure.

Considering the economic disparities between India and Pakistan, there’s no way Pakistan can match India missile for missile. Overspending on defence could well bankrupt Pakistan.

India’s claim that its indigenously designed ballistic missile defence (BMD) system – successfully tested on May 15 – can defend the country from a nuclear attack is being contested by a Russian expert.

According to Petr Topychkanov, Associate at the Carnegie Moscow Centre’s Non-Proliferation Programme, despite heavy investments in developing BMD systems, India may not be able to fully defend itself in a conflict from strikes by Pakistani missiles. “Even in 10 years and with the huge budgets that India plans to spend on the development of nuclear weapons and capabilities, it is difficult to imagine it will be able to defend its territory from possible strikes from Pakistan in case of conflict,” he says.

Topychkanov’s observation isn’t wrong. Although India is now only the fourth country after Russia, Israel and the US to successfully test a BMD system, it is currently taking baby steps in ballistic missile development. BMD technologies are complicated and it will take years – and perhaps decades –before India gets a reliable system.

Even the superpowers with huge economic and technological resources at their disposal did not erect iron domes over their territories. During the Cold War despite thousands of Russian nuclear-tipped missiles pointed at its cities and strategic nerve centres, the US abandoned its lone BMD site, in North Dakota. The Russians also built just one system, over Moscow, with the difference that it stands to this day.

But Topychkanov’s opinion doesn’t provide the complete picture. India’s BMD programme is not a zero-sum project that will either protect the country or won’t. Rather, it is part of a strategic escalation that will have far-reaching geopolitical impact, especially on Pakistan.

Playing strategic chicken

A detailed study titled ‘On the Strategic Value of Ballistic Missile Defence’ by the French Institute of International Relations explains how BMD works to unhinge the enemy’s strategy. According to the study, BMD:

- Creates uncertainty about the outcome of an attack in the mind of the attacker.

- Increases the raid size required for an attack to penetrate, thereby, undermining a strategy of firing one or two and threatening more thus reducing coercive leverage.

- Provides some assurance against risks of precipitate action by the aggressor.

- Buys leadership time for choosing and implementing courses of action, including time for diplomacy.

- Reduces the political pressure for pre-emptive strikes.

In short, a robust missile defence system helps to put the burden of escalation in an emerging crisis on to the adversary. When a crisis has become a hot war, then missile defence again has various strategic values. It:

- Helps to preserve freedom of action by selectively safeguarding key military and political assets.

- Increases time and opportunity to attack adversary’s missile force with kinetic and non-kinetic means, potentially eliminating his capacity for follow-on attacks or decisive political or military effects.

Pakistan’s conundrum

India’s development of a missile defence system will complicate the Pakistani military’s war planning. The Indian Army’s Cold Start strategy, for instance, has put huge pressure on the Pakistani economy by forcing Islamabad to crank up the production of nuclear weapons as well as delivery systems such as ballistic, cruise and tactical missiles.

The latest Indian test is likely to create more insecurity in the Pakistani military establishment. According to a report by the World Politics Review, “India’s pursuit of strategic technologies, including BMD capabilities, has created extreme paranoia in the Pakistani defence and security establishment. Pakistan has already drastically increased its nuclear arsenal in recent years in response to India’s BMD efforts.”

Pakistan is not content with having an adequate number of nuclear weapons to deter India from launching an attack. It wants to match India nuke for nuke. The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists says Pakistan is on course to have the world’s fifth-largest inventory of nuclear weapons, and is spending more than $2.5 billion on nuclear weapons annually.

Given the Pakistani obsession with matching India weapon for weapon, it is likely Islamabad will try and develop a Made in Pakistan BMD. At the same time, it will attempt to buy systems from outside as a hedge against failure.

Either way the impact on the Pakistani economy will be immense. The Stockholm International Peace Research Institute lists India as the fifth largest military spender with an annual budget of $51 billion. In contrast Pakistan’s military budget is a paltry $7.6 billion. In overall economic terms, India’s GDP of $2 trillion is the seventh largest and dwarfs Pakistan’s $269 billion economy which is ranked 41st in the world.

Considering such economic disparities, there’s no way Pakistan can match India missile for missile. Overspending on defence could well bankrupt Pakistan, especially in the backdrop of western economies no longer having the inclination or the capacity to bail it out as they did in the past.

Will Islamabad take the bait?

Pakistan’s military leadership is obsessed with growing its atomic arsenal to the detriment of its economy. Terrence P. Smith of the Center for Strategic and International Studies says that for Pakistan, nuclear weapons have become a “psychological equaliser”.

Says the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists:

“In working to double the size of its already substantial nuclear arsenal, Pakistan continues to place a disproportionate focus on its nuclear programme ahead of other key security concerns. This behaviour is far from new. In 1972, Pakistani President Zulfikar Ali Bhutto famously proclaimed, ‘Even if we have to eat grass we will make nuclear bombs’. Four decades later, Pakistan continues to pursue this strategy of nuclear buildup at any cost, thereby diverting resources away from other programmes that could attempt to address the country’s internal security and economic threats.”
India’s BMD could be the proverbial straw that breaks the back of the Pakistani camel.

Spinoffs for India

While any military spending is wasteful, it is a bit like insurance premiums – they hurt but when there’s a crisis you are glad you invested. Besides the obvious benefits, missile defence research could have lucrative spinoffs. Russia’s extensive R&D in strategic missile defence led to the development of battlefield missile defence systems such as the S-300, S-400 and S-500, of which the first two are in great demand worldwide. Similarly, India can be an exporter of low cost battlefield missile defence systems.

http://swarajyamag.com/defence/how-indias-missile-defence-system-can-take-down-pakistan
 

Screambowl

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What I meant is that previously in this forum some members did quoted S400 as an anti ballastic missile (which it is) which would be able to take out an ICBM.

But going through its range, we could say that its operational range is 400km max. Now with that sort of range, it would be an ABM against SRBM and MRBMs only. Against any IRBM or ICBM its range would be too short.
question is correct that's why S500 is being developed.

The engagement with the target happens before it reaches it's terminal phase.
 

Chinmoy

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question is correct that's why S500 is being developed.

The engagement with the target happens before it reaches it's terminal phase.
Any source for its specs?????



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