India set to grow faster than China in 2010: World Bank

[badguy2000]

If China is spending 14% GDP in bad loans to upgrade GDP forcasts... the actual GDP growth of China is actually -6%. Seems to fit with a 21% decrease in exports.

Vladimir79 always has his speical way to caculate GDP......

now ,I am even tired to debate on it....

I just want to dig the tomb next year....I hope that I will still meet you here at that time.......Gorden Vladimir?

 

[redragon]

that takes the cake. care to explain your own country's and india's achievements by being democracies?

To explain Japan is necessary, but not India, because to explain India can only show that Totalism is better, India and China declared independence almost at the same time, 1947 vs 1949, and India had better foundation left from UK+almighty democracy, China had relic left over from wars+evil communism party. But everyone knows the gap between these 2 countries after 60 years developing.
I am not being sarcastic, this is a fact that India is always used as an negative example when Pro totalism Chinese debate with pro democracy Chinese in Chinese forum.
P.S, don't feel suprised, Chinese actually allowed to debate about democracy and totalism in public forum, even the evil Commies allow, I think DFI must be much better than that, am I right?

 

[ppgj]

but not India, because to explain India can only show that Totalism is better,

very insightful. thank you very much.

But everyone knows the gap between these 2 countries after 60 years developing.

gap exists because india opened up its economy 2 decades later than china. we are closing gap and the world is recognising it.
by the way china is communist or capitalist?

I am not being sarcastic, this is a fact that India is always used as an negative example when Pro totalism Chinese debate with pro democracy Chinese in Chinese forum.

better if they spend time learning from india just as we need to learn from china. it does not matter how chinese paint india. we are growing in strength. better watch out.

P.S, don't feel suprised, Chinese actually allowed to debate about democracy and totalism in public forum, even the evil Commies allow, I think DFI must be much better than that, am I right?

i am happy atleast you are allowed atleast to debate.
we practice it.

 

[redragon]

very insightful. thank you very much.


gap exists because india opened up its economy 2 decades later than china. we are closing gap and the world is recognising it.

Ok let me elaborate a little bit here, in Chinese forum, people believe it took Indian democratic government 50years to find out the right way to develope, and it took Commies 30 years, that shows exactly the advantage of totalism system in this particular case.

And you said you are closing the gap, but by reading data from different channels, Chinese believe the gap is widening, that is another proof pro totalism Chinese used in their debate. Well, off course if you believe all chinese are reading fake data or brainwashed by commies, then they might not know what they are talking about, :twizt: then we should not have had this conversation.

 

[redragon]

i am happy atleast you are allowed atleast to debate.
we practice it.

Thank you for happy for us,

I said that only want to tell some members here that Chinese internet may not like what they believed...
I am all for mutual understanding...

 

[dineshchaturvedi]

gap exists because india opened up its economy 2 decades later than china. we are closing gap and the world is recognising it.

Whatever be the reason for the gap, it is a fact that there is a gap between 2 of us. Why do not we focus on development rather then comparisons. Why are we are jumping around in the whole world about our growth, it makes more sense to work and do less talking. I see this India China thread everywhere.

Dude the best thing is work hard and hope for best. We need to improve our work culture, so far we have gained primarily due to low cost. We still has to work hard on quality and work ethics (leave the IT industry here). When we go to work we take so many break's coffee tea etc, compare it with Japan and China they are very hard working. Even in USA they hardly take break, they take coffee to their desk and have it there.

The other side effect of boasting is "Nazar ka jati hai"

 

[ppgj]

Ok let me elaborate a little bit here, in Chinese forum, people believe it took Indian democratic government 50years to find out the right way to develope, and it took Commies 30 years, that shows exactly the advantage of totalism system in this particular case.

so is that what you think will work in india? definitely not. each country has a political culture, discourse, outlook and a system of governance. democracy or autocracy is something people in those respective countries will have to chose and live with and be happy about. to say totalitarianism in china will succeed in india is sheer stupidity. if that is the case then i can quote many countries which are totalitarian and unsuccessful and countries which are not totalitarian but fully successful. there is no governing rule for this. so your prescription does not work. besides we are growing healthily and are fine with it.
one more point it is important too that individual freedom is as important as growth.

And you said you are closing the gap, but by reading data from different channels, Chinese believe the gap is widening, that is another proof pro totalism Chinese used in their debate.

you may be growing faster but in the process of that you will be creating problems too. you may suppress it by being toatalitarian but they will come back to bite in future.
in our case since the growth happens with consensus(a plus for democracy) so the problems will not come to bite or settled peacefully.
so what do you choose- growth with problems? or growth without problems?
so the gap that you mention is only temporary and illusionary.

 

[ppgj]

Whatever be the reason for the gap, it is a fact that there is a gap between 2 of us. Why do not we focus on development rather then comparisons.

it was only in response to this-

In Asia? It seems to me that democracy is certainly not required.

 

[dineshchaturvedi]

it was only in response to this-

thanks for clarification, I can understand that.

 

[no smoking]

Just as you believe democracy wouldn't work in China, we believe Communism wouldn't work here. We constantly use the example of some of our states ruled by CPI-M as an example.

On the other hand, next time someone tells you that democracy wouldn't work in China, citing India as an example, try using the United States as an example of how democracy does work in big countries. Your opponent will be stumped right there.

Well, useing india as the example is because india has the similar conditions: almost found at the same time, hugh population, extremly low economic condition, high iliteracy and diversity. Both countries were developing in the same period.

We cannot get 2 countreis with comletely same condition to study. However, india and china are the most similar 2.

 

[mattster]

Well, useing india as the example is because india has the similar conditions: almost found at the same time, hugh population, extremly low economic condition, high iliteracy and diversity. Both countries were developing in the same period.

We cannot get 2 countries with comletely same condition to study. However, india and china are the most similar 2.

The problem with a lot of these analysis comparing India with China in terms of growth is that they are very shallow.

While Indians in general have a similar cultural backgrounds, there are still very strong linguistic, religious and caste differences. All my Cantonese speaking friends understand Mandarin, but as a Malayalam speaking guy I can certainly understand Tamil, but can barely make sense of a word of Telugu or any of the other 10 or 20 main Indian languages

These 2 factors make India a rich mix of traditions and cultures, but these same factors also hinder when it comes to consensus building. China does not have as many languages as India does and the only religious tradition was a weak buddhist/taoist tradition

In India religious faith and culture are also very tightly wrapped; so there is a natural divide there, in addition to language as well as caste.

You can look at it as a glass that is half-full, or half-empty.

As India becomes a more educated English speaking society, these divisions mean very little anymore as you can see in the emerging middle class and upper middle-class Indian society today, and India will gradually close the gap with China.

Conversely, as China becomes more developed; the power of the individual will increase and the power of the state communist center will decrease, and then you will begin to see the same kind of problems that democracies have to deal with. In other words, you wont be able to send in a bunch of soldiers and bulldozers and tell half a million poor Chinese peasants that they will have to relocate for a big dam project or be thrown in jail or shot !!!
In fact, you are already seeing it all over the country-side in China.

So while India and China may have started out at the same time of independence; the analysis by some Chinese, comparing these 2 countries which were very similar due to huge overpopulation, poverty and illiteracy is somewhat missing the point.

While China certainly has minorities; it does not in any way have the ethno-linguistic-religious-cultural-caste complexity of a country like India.

When the colonial Brits left, Indians had to evolve an independent democratic system based on what the Brits have left behind. It is common knowledge that maintaining a democratic system in a huge overpopulated country like India would mean that its political system would become an endless gridlock.

But that is the price that India has to pay to maintain a society that is in keeping with our values. Even the current Chinese model of capitalistic-communism would have never worked in India - simply because it is intrinsically against our value system.

Not to oversimplify a complex topic, but simply put - we are not going to shoot our poor farmers, if they dont move for a dam !

[mod] banned word deleted , please stay on topic from your next post [/mod]

 

[redragon]

Mattster,
I understand all you said, but that won't change the fact that India and China are the most comparable countries when talk about developing

 

[Pintu]

[mod]Every body stay on topic, any more off topic post will see closure of the thread[/mod]

 

[nimo_cn]

you may be growing faster but in the process of that you will be creating problems too. you may suppress it by being toatalitarian but they will come back to bite in future.
in our case since the growth happens with consensus(a plus for democracy) so the problems will not come to bite or settled peacefully.
so what do you choose- growth with problems? or growth without problems?

In whatever way you achieve the growth, there will be problems pop up from time to time. So the two options should be growth with problems or non-growth, which do you like?

I can feel that Indian friends see things in a different way from us, you have explained yours,i would like to elaborate ours, so that we can learn from each other.

To some extent, you are right, if some of the problems are not settled well, it will bite us some day. But we will do it in a different way.
As i have mentioned, growth will create problems, the key point is how we deal with these problems. We believe problems arose by growth can only be solved by growth, or should be solved in the process of growth. The reason these problems can be problems is that we still dont develop well. Most of these problems will naturally disappear if the growth reach a higher stage. Problems at the first stage of the growth will not be problems at the second or third stage of the growth. In short, development is the key to solve problems.

so the gap that you mention is only temporary and illusionary.

The gap is temporary but not illusionary.
Honestly, i hope China can be ahead of Inida. But if India surpass China, then good for Inida.

 

[ppgj]

In whatever way you achieve the growth, there will be problems pop up from time to time. So the two options should be growth with problems or non-growth, which do you like?

not right. in democracies the problems are solved before the projects take off because the voices against such projects are respected. they are not brutally put down. that is why there are delays or even cancelling of the project itself. so the growth may be slower but it is real.
as for your non-growth comment, do you feel india is not growing?

I can feel that Indian friends see things in a different way from us, you have explained yours,i would like to elaborate ours, so that we can learn from each other.

yes. there are still things we both need to know from each other.

As i have mentioned, growth will create problems, the key point is how we deal with these problems. We believe problems arose by growth can only be solved by growth, or should be solved in the process of growth. The reason these problems can be problems is that we still dont develop well. Most of these problems will naturally disappear if the growth reach a higher stage. Problems at the first stage of the growth will not be problems at the second or third stage of the growth. In short, development is the key to solve problems.

growth is not the only solution. that is what i said in my previous post. individual freedom is also important. growth also needs to be inclusive so it reaches all sections of the society. if it only helps few, social inequities will rebound on the state.

The gap is temporary but not illusionary.
Honestly, i hope China can be ahead of Inida.

i am not saying india will overtake china but it will close the gap. for me the growth which is more real and inclusive is more worthy than growth which creates future problems. if you feel china will stay ahead, i wish you good.

But if India surpass China, then good for Inida.

surpassing china is not so important. we should be looking at longterm sustained growth. india will overtake china only when china starts facing the problems it has created in its path to growth.

 

[no smoking]

not right. in democracies the problems are solved before the projects take off because the voices against such projects are respected. they are not brutally put down. that is why there are delays or even cancelling of the project itself. so the growth may be slower but it is real.
as for your non-growth comment, do you feel india is not growing?

The problem with india is not the growth, but how quick the gov reponse to the problem. CCP started the reform around 1980 and indian reform started at 1992. It means this democratic gov took 12 more years to figure out the problem than a dictatorship. That is not all right for the poor. Maybe indians don't mind the loss during this 12 years, but chinese will not tolerate this delay.

growth is not the only solution. that is what i said in my previous post. individual freedom is also important. growth also needs to be inclusive so it reaches all sections of the society. if it only helps few, social inequities will rebound on the state.

For you, maybe individual freedom is very important. But the people who is struggling in the poverty, growth is all about live or death. Maybe you cherish the right of free speech, but for the poor, they really don't have the time to think about the speech.

surpassing china is not so important. we should be looking at longterm sustained growth. india will overtake china only when china starts facing the problems it has created in its path to growth.

Looks like many india friends think surpassing china is very important.

 

[nimo_cn]

not right. in democracies the problems are solved before the projects take off because the voices against such projects are respected. they are not brutally put down. that is why there are delays or even cancelling of the project itself. so the growth may be slower but it is real.

So by cancelling the project, then problems are solved? Has it occured to you how many people else would benefit from that project? Have you realized that the biggest problem both China and Inida are facing is growth?

BTW, The growth of China is real, too.

as for your non-growth comment, do you feel india is not growing?

Of course not , i will not deny the growth of Inida. On the contrary, by saying this, are you implying there are no problems in India that might rebound in the future?

growth is not the only solution. that is what i said in my previous post. individual freedom is also important. growth also needs to be inclusive so it reaches all sections of the society. if it only helps few, social inequities will rebound on the state.

It can't solve all problems, but definitely can solve most of them.

if you are refering to the huge gap between the poor and the rich, then i agree with you, it is a big problem.
This problem is arose by growth, because before 1980s, there were no the poor and the rich, there were only the poor. I think the best way to solve this problem is growth, and of course establishing a better and fairer wealth distribution system is also important. But the system can only perform well when there are enough wealth to distribute, which can only be guaranteed by growth.

surpassing china is not so important. we should be looking at longterm sustained growth. india will overtake china only when china starts facing the problems it has created in its path to growth.

As long as China can maintain the current growth speed, then these problems are just a piece of cake. As i mentioned, the biggest problem we are facing now is how we can maintain this speed.

 

[Vladimir79]

As long as China can maintain the current growth speed, then these problems are just a piece of cake. As i mentioned, the biggest problem we are facing now is how we can maintain this speed.

The only way to to keep this (artificial) speed is to keep borrowing and pray exports rise again before loans come due.

 

[ppgj]

So by cancelling the project, then problems are solved?

problems are not solved. problems are avoided. respect of people's verdict.

Has it occured to you how many people else would benefit from that project? Have you realized that the biggest problem both China and Inida are facing is growth?

just because a project is cancelled does not mean those people in that area lost out on jobs etc.. they are engaged in their own jobs/activities. infact that is the reason they oppose a certain project in the first place. their is no loss.

BTW, The growth of China is real, too.

i hope. you pray.

Of course not , i will not deny the growth of Inida. On the contrary, by saying this, are you implying there are no problems in India that might rebound in the future?

have already said it. since most problems are solved before the project takes off, they rebounding is less. if some minor ones do come up, they are resolved.

It can't solve all problems, but definitely can solve most of them.

you are fixated only on growth. quality of life is a mix of growth and a fundamental right to enjoy freedom.

if you are refering to the huge gap between the poor and the rich, then i agree with you, it is a big problem.

yes. that is what i meant.

As long as China can maintain the current growth speed, then these problems are just a piece of cake. As i mentioned, the biggest problem we are facing now is how we can maintain this speed.

you are completely export oriented economy. any adverse global impact will hurt you. india is domestic driven and hence safe.

 

[redragon]

The only way to to keep this (artificial) speed is to keep borrowing and pray exports rise again before loans come due.

what you said based on one condition: China will never grow its internal market
if you change the China to Russia, then I will agree with you. because Russia's population are shrinking especially for white Russian, the Muslim Russian population is growing though.