India Rejects BMP-3 Offer

p2prada

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BMP-3 is not a major upgrade. Typical case of Russian export industry making a silly offer when there is a better system like Armata UCP available. They would have had better chances there.

I am reminded of American offers of F-16 and F-/A-18 when they had started development of the F-35.

FICV is far too important to be shelved anyway. Better to simply upgrade old systems and wait for a new generation system to replace it. We are doing the same with FMBT also.
 

Damian

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My father is from Mechanised Infantry and I have seen BMP-2 (Sarath) in Ahmednagar and Bikaner. It's a very good IFV. But if you compare it with IFVs of other countries such as US army Strykers (is it amphibious?) the BMPs look so outdated in technology.
Stryker is a wheeled platform which does not have IFV variant, it have only APC variant. US Army only IFV currently in service is M2 Bradley.

There is of course currently performed R&D work to design variant of Stryker armed with 25mm or 30mm automatic cannon, this variant can be called IFV.

And here some explanation. How vehicles are classified.

APC is aclassified as personell carrier but armed only with light armament, APC do not directly support infantry and other vehicles in battle, it's purpose is only to transport infantry under armor.

IFV on the other hand have capability to transport infantry under armor protection, but also have armament that permitts it to provide direct support for infantry and other vehicles.

In other words, APC mostly can't fight against harder targets, like other APC's, however IFV can engage vast types of targets, like infantry, APC's, other IFV's, even MBT's.

In both cases of course we have different classes of APC's and IFV's.

We have lightweight class, that is amphibious, but we can also recently observe a shift towards heavier, non amphibious vehicles.

Indian FICV will be a much better product compared to any junk that russia can offer.
It depends. FICV appears to be a typical IFV, with relatively light protection. Question is, if it will be capable to directly compete with new Russian IFV based on "Kurganets-25" platform. New Russian IFV will use modular armor protection so if nececary it can be in lighter configuration with amphibious capabilities, or in heavier, up armored variant.

And then, there is also heavy "Armata" platform, which will have most likely, a heavy APC and heavy IFV variants.

I wud like to see a 75mm gun on it rather than a 40mm gun. So that once again we can show to the world our Jugaad style.
It is complete stupidity, where you would store such big ammunition and in the same time have troops transport capabilities? Not to mention that a 75mm ammunition would pose increased danger for crew and troops inside in case of armor perforation, ammo cook off are not nice.

Merkava carries troops also.
No, Merkava tanks do not have troop transport capabilities. It is complete myth and lack of understanding of vehicles design.

Rear hull compartment is for ammunition storage only.




Where do you want to transport troops there? There are not even benches or seats for troops. Which during transportation posses additional danger for these troops, as they can hit their heads on to something inside if for example mine explode under hull.

Also using this compartment for something else than ammunition storage, means your tank is left with 5 or 10 rounds for main armament, which means, it losts it's full combat capabilities and is vurnable on the battlefield.

This is why IFV's are armed with medium calliber automatic cannons, such armament use ammunition of smaller dimensions, thus vehicle can enough ammunition to operate in combat conditions, yet still can transport troops.

As of My Requirements The FICV or IFV should have

1.Armour should be equal to modern Tanks Armour

2. 30 or 40mm Auto Cannon along with one or two Machine Guns guided with lasers and two or Four Pieces of Anti Tank Missiles

3. Can carry atleast Five Highly equipped Infantry

4 Can Live from NBC and Laser Warning Systems

5.Amphibious Charac.

6.Can Knock out Shoulder Fire Anti Tank Missiles
Funny, please explain me, how you want to achieve protection equal to a MBT and still have amphibious capabilities?

Tracked vehicles can keep their amphibious capabilities only up to 25 metric tons of combat weight, above that, they are unable to swim.

Not to mention that achieving MBT protection levels would be difficult within practical weight limits. It is because of the internal volume of vehicle hull.

Because MBT does not need to carry infantry squad, it can be much more compact, and this is why it can achieve good protection within reasonable weight limits.

In case of APC and IFV, it is immposible because to carry infantry inside, much greater internal volume is nececary.

This is why some compromises are nececary.

Other things are not fully correct at your list, but still reasonable and can be done.
 
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mehrotraprince

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No, Merkava tanks do not have troop transport capabilities. It is complete myth and lack of understanding of vehicles design.

Rear hull compartment is for ammunition storage only.

Where do you want to transport troops there? There are not even benches or seats for troops. Which during transportation posses additional danger for these troops, as they can hit their heads on to something inside if for example mine explode under hull.
I think @Decklander never meant that Merkava is a dedicated IFV or APC, he only said that "it can also carry troops"......means should a situation arise then it has enough space to carry 3-5 troops.

Here is a video which supports that claim.........watch clip from 0:45 to 1:10.

 
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SajeevJino

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.

I think @Decklander Sir was talked about the Namer APC based on Merkava Chassis






and thanks to @Damian Sir for the detailed Information
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Correct me if i am wrong, There was a Polish IFV with 75mm or 76mm auto cannon ..

It is complete stupidity, where you would store such big ammunition and in the same time have troops transport capabilities? Not to mention that a 75mm ammunition would pose increased danger for crew and troops inside in case of armor perforation, ammo cook off are not nice.
 

Damian

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Correct me if i am wrong, There was a Polish IFV with 75mm or 76mm auto cannon ..
BWP-2000, had a 60mm automatic cannon from OTO Melara, there was also turret variant with smaller calliber weapon. It was powerfull armament, however we should remember that even 60mm ammunition had large dimensions, thus whole ammunition storage was rather limited.

Also vehicle had rather typical protection, large internal volume, was non amphibious. It was definetely promising vehicle, better than BWP-1 we use (Polish variant of BMP-1).




These are two turret variants with 60mm armament.

Honestly I would preffer slightly smaller 40mm gun, if possible firing CTA ammunition, and perhaps I would make vehicle overall more compact, yet better protected.

BTW, what is interesting about BWP-2000, is that it have some commonality with T-72 and PT-91 tanks, as well as with SPG "Krab".

Which means these vehicles, creates a family. It can be then considered as one of the early experiments to unify several different vehicle classes within single family of vehicle through use of common components.
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Being not Amphibious does not mean it cannot deploy snorkel ..

Regarding Indian terrain and obstical we face, Its important to have amphibious capability but bigger the gun better it is ..

L70 was a better choice for us than 30 or 35mm auto cannons ..
 

SPIEZ

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First of all, why do you even think Indians rejected it?


First question Indian MoD and Army should ask, what IFV they want? Do they want a lighter, amphibious IFV, or perhaps they preffer to choose heavier protected, non amphibious IFV like most western nations preffer.
 

SPIEZ

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I do not understand, what I think Indians rejected?
I am not sure what you think.

Indians rejected it because it didn't fill our requirements.

And if your asking for this requirements in public, now I am sure there is a reason why such things aren't displayed in public.
 

p2prada

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I do not understand, what I think Indians rejected?
The rejection happened because the Russians want the FICV program canceled for the BMP-3 deal to happen. No chance of that.

We can't cancel indigenous programs for the sake of a mild increase in capability, especially when most of the work is to be done by the private industry.

FICV is an attempt by the armed forces to reduce dependency on both DRDO/OFB and major foreign sources over the long term and bring competition for future tenders.
 
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Damian

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But where did I talk about India rejecting BMP-3?

I only said that Indian Army and MoD should take a second look at requirements such like amphibious capabilities.

The trend over the world is to resign from amphibious capabilities of IFV's in favor of greater protection.
 

Akim

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@Damian
Indian Army was interested in the Polish combat platform. Heard about it at the current stage?
 
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Damian

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@Damian
Indian Army was interested in the Polish combat platform. Heard about it at the current stage?
WPB "Anders" is only technology demonstrator, if Indians are still interested, they need to wait for real prototypes. What I can say, is that main cycle of development here in Poland just beggins. The real platform is named UMPG - Uniwersalna Modułowa Platforma Gąsienicowa (Universal Modular Tracked Platform). Currenty IU - Inspektorat Uzbrojenia (Armament Inspectorate) sended documents for companies that want to participate. We know that OBRUM, our design bureau is working hard on UMPG, and especially it's tank variant. They also most likely won to develop IFV variant and all other specialized variants.

First prototype should be ready in 2015 or 2016. More detailed informations might be released for public through 2014.

So if someone is interested, still need wait, project is not yet ready for mass production. However the projections are, that Polish Army will purchase more than 1000 UMPG's in different variants.
 
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