India Plans to buy S-400

Discussion in 'Strategic Forces' started by SajeevJino, Oct 11, 2015.

  1. Vijyes

    Vijyes Senior Member Senior Member

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    It is petrodollar based economy, not dollar. So, USA have to act according to what oil supplier states of arabia want. Our deal is with Arabs, not USA. So, we already have got rid of USA dominance. USA cutting out India will not be possible without Arabs agreeing and that won't happen

    PMO economic advisors may be USA based but they are Indians with USA education. It is incorrect to say that they will aid USA. Moreover, most of the advisors in non economic areas are not USA based.

    India is not integrated with USA economy absolutely. USA relies on trade with India to sustain its economy. USA is already having debts of $500 billion a year. It can't afford to cause more chaos by alienating India. If USA alienates India, USA dollar will no longer be accepted internationally. USA economy will collapse due to extraordinary pressure and reaction that will follow. So, USA has more to lose than India.
     
  2. ezsasa

    ezsasa Senior Member Veteran Member Senior Member

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    You are digressing....

    What are all currencies in the world pegged against ? $

    What is the most preferred currency by all central banks across the world, in terms of their reserves? $

    What is the currency in which all economies report their GDP, other than their own? $

    Who controls the narrative on economy and other global issues? U.S

    Last year American govt apparently spent 400 million $ as part of their “democracy support” fund in South Asia. We can speculate that most of that fund has probably landed in India, because no other country in South Asia has the capacity to absorb such a large fund.

    Sure every county has their economics to keep their wheels turning, but it’s the $ which acts as grease that keep the world economy running smoothly for now.

    When ever there is a threat to $ based global economy like bitcoin, Chinese yuan etc.. the Americans act and ensure that it does not happen.
     
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  3. Vijyes

    Vijyes Senior Member Senior Member

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    All of this will go down te drain if Arabs withdraw their support to petrodollar.

    You simply don't understand the importance of oil sold in dollars. If oil is sold in yuan, yuan will be the global currency. The root cause of USA dollar being dominant is because of compulsion of other countries to buy Petroleum. So, you hit this source, USA will fall.

    It is true that dollar is the link to world economy bit one must not forget that USA economy is also reliant on world economy for its own economic survival. If imbalance is caused in world economy, USA economy will collapse first. We saw how USA economy crashed in 2008 followed by EU economy when oil prices spiked. Countries like China and India didn't get hit much. This shows how sensitive USA economy is towards global imbalance.

    Though it is true that USA can hurt India by cutting economic finance, USA economy will simply face a tragedy if it does so. USA can harm Indian economy by only doing a suicide on its own economy.

    What action did USA take against China? As of now, China is untouched by USA except for some duty hike. Bitcoin was not a threat to USA. It is in fact based out of USA and used for funding undercover activities.

    Yes, USA does spend on NGOs and other organisation in India, Pakistan, Maldives,Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. These are the legacy of USA dominance in the past when India didn't assert itself. USA still keeps its assets and agents in India. But India has the bigger gun when it comes to handling it.

    Don't forget how India interfered in USA elections in 2016 to help Trump defeat Hillary via Republican Hindu Coalition under NRI named Shalabh Kumar.

    India also has similar agents in USA. So, it is mutual and not one sided.
     
  4. Hari Sud

    Hari Sud Senior Member Senior Member

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    You got your answer with ‘ezsasa’ post.
     
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  5. Vijyes

    Vijyes Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yes, I understand that argument. I am only trying to say that USA can't harm Indian economy without harming itself. So, only thing USA can do is suicide attack on Indian economy in the current scenarios.

    This is why USA enjoys no advantage over India and india can exercise similar advantage over USA if push comes to the shove.
     
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  6. IndianHawk

    IndianHawk Senior Member Senior Member

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    US can create temporary hurdle in our growth path nothing much . Our economic growth has been internally driven mostly that is why despite poor show on exports we still grow 6-7%. We need USA support to grow 10%+ .

    Remember usa sanctions in 98 nuke test. They couldn't stop our economic growth and that failure of us pressure led to deep reassessment of us foreign policy and hence India USA nuke deal which was exceptional and made a mockery of global nuclear control regimes.

    Meanwhile antagonising India means USA not only will create hurdle for itself in world's fastest growing Market but will also loose it's best bet against China .

    So take usa threat of sanctions with pinch of salt. Realpolitik wins at the end of day and here USA will have to come to terms with rising India much like nuke deal.

    Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk
     
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  7. vampyrbladez

    vampyrbladez Senior Member Senior Member

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    Russian electronics are generations behind US/Western ones. If Turkey is in NATO then the S400 will inevitably reach US Intel.

    The SM 6 is a missile designed to take everything on (ships,BM,CM,etc) to a range of almost 460 KM and the SM 3 BLK IIA can take on ICBMs and has a range of 2500 KM. S500 still in development has a range of 600 KM only.

    In all tests thus far SM 6 has performed flawlessly to the point of getting clearance for an update which involves mating it with the SM 3 BLK IIa airframe and 21 inch motor.

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...issile-for-even-longer-range-and-higher-speed

    S400 is best on the market. Meanwhile USN has next generation stuff on deployment and futuristic stuff in the pipeline.

    US Army has comparable systems to the S400 but S400 is still better. However hypothetical upgrades to the THAAD and PAC3 MSE discussed b/w 2008 - 2011 are a completely different story.

    Lack of knowledge is no excuse for such stupid statements! Digital has replaced analog due to its ability to define discrete points along the graph and to allow for modification of signals.

    Analog is mainly for large scale power and voltage management like OP Amps, IC 555, etc. Russians suck at semiconductor technology. That's why they go for hybrid designs.
     
  8. B0seRaoMenonModi

    B0seRaoMenonModi Regular Member

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    The Chinese menality : we have to work hard so we can protect our nation and citizens lives from the petrodollar/western system


    The last few posts:

    The Indian mentality: we have to work hard so we can live under the western system/ petrodollar and white people will help us reach our potential?


    After 70 years why do we (some of us) have this cuckold mentality?
     
  9. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle War Mongerer Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Where the hell? Where the hell diplomatic dealing is called cucking? Chinese has sucked on West & USSR much more than India would ever do in recent past.
     
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  10. Vijyes

    Vijyes Senior Member Senior Member

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    Generations behind? Really? It is the case in civilian electronics, not in military.

    S400 is something Russia is willing to sell to ISA itself. Russians are challenging USA to reverse engineer it. Russia knows that USA will try.

    No,the SM3 doesn't have range if 2500km. If it has,it will be a ballistic missile, not ABM. Secondly, SM3 is a BMD system, not SAM. It doesn't fare well against fighters.

    SM6 can attack a ship at 400km but it doesn't have a proper warhead. So, it is less effective against ships. It is more designed against aerial threats like fighters. But, it is not mobile like S400 and hence can be subject to mass targeting. A SAM must be mobile.

    That applies to you. Analog is possible even for other system. It is complex yo design and hence people avoid it. Bit if someone takes the time, then it is the best one can get. The hybrid design which you mentioned is not some dumb design. It is about hybrid between BJT & MOSFET type. MOSFET is digital while BJT is analog.

    Russians don't lack semiconductor. They have 90nm manufacturing which is good enough for military needs. Russians don't have civilian semiconductor. But I am talking of military semiconductor.
     
  11. vampyrbladez

    vampyrbladez Senior Member Senior Member

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    Military is pinnacle of available technology and Russians still use vacuum tubes to generate channel frequency in IBRIS and BARS radars while using crude T/R modules in radars. Civilian industry mainly relies on imported cheap Chinese garbage.

    This is the US ICBM defense strategy.

    [​IMG]

    US is least bothered about the tech but will reverse engineer it to find the L Band frequencies to better shield F 35, F 22, B 2, B 21, F XX, etc using stealth coating upgrades.

    S400 has multiple missiles for different roles. The 4096 missile has a 400 KM for a 3500 KM range MRBM.
    SM2 BLK IIA can intercept ICBMs.

    http://www.spacewar.com/reports/SM-...ssful_intercept_of_ballistic_missile_999.html

    SM6 took out a 4000 ton frigate during testing.

    https://warisboring.com/this-ship-killer-is-tiny-but-deadly-when-slammed-into-an-old-frigate/

    It has a KE far greater than most AShM, around M 3.5, which if you remember the 1/2mv^2 formula means it's like a miniature BrahMos. Now imagine packing dozens of these in MK 41 VLS.

    It can also intercept ballistic missiles at their terminal stage as well as MRBMs.

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ely-versatile-sm-6-missile-keeps-scoring-hits

    Anything that adds extra stages of DA converters and pulse generators significantly affects signal throughput. Hence you want to avoid hybrids as intermediary stages lead to signal distortion and generate harmonics.

    Source : t.ECE Engineer

    Russians have to work with what they have got. Lack of R&D funding affects their industrial base a lot which is why if they stopped being stubborn about ToT agreement with India and treated us like how Israel and France does, then they will catch up much faster and more efficiently.

    I love the S400 design but I must also remind people that there are more dangerous fish in the sea. This is what separates us from Paki Niggers.
     
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  12. Immanuel

    Immanuel Senior Member Senior Member

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    India will avoid sanctions and other shit because there will be more strategic purchases from the US anyways. More P-8Is, More Apaches, MH-60R, probably SH Block3 for IN etc.

    Trump is giving Erdo a hard time since Erdo is being a lil bitch. They will loose F-35 contracts. However, this will give the US even a much closer look on the S-400.

    US is looking at IN's SSN program, there have already been closed meetings.
     
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  13. B0seRaoMenonModi

    B0seRaoMenonModi Regular Member

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    I don't know how to explain the past posts to you..it'd be like explaining to a Pakistani what democracy is or to a slave what freedom is.

    (HaRI was what was mostly offensive)
     
  14. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle War Mongerer Veteran Member Senior Member

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    It's actually applies on you. No matter what I say, it's impossible explain diplomacy and importance of stable international relations to you.
     
  15. captscooby81

    captscooby81 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Sorry sir, Looks like we all had very different understanding of Issue with Turkey and US and reasons why Turkey went for S-400 ..

    Follow the below tweet thread may be one perspective for the change



    S-400s, a story: Everything started when Turkey downed a Russian jet, Su-24 in Nov 2015 for violating its airspace. Russians were repeatedly bombarding Turkman-led rebel groups by using Turkish airspace. Ankara issued several warnings. Then downed a jet. What was US reaction?

    US officials, on the record, initially supported Turkey’s arguments. But had different talking points while briefing reporters on background. US defense officials undermined Turkey’s claim and said Russian jet was in Syrian airspace when it was hit. So much for NATO solidarity

    What else US thought of Turkey’s downing the Russian jet? They thought it was an overreaction to “a minor violation of its airspace”

    What about NATO? Oh, they were generous. They sent an air defence package against Russian incursions following the jet incident, including AWACS. But NATO diplomats WORRIED Ankara was too aggressive to defend its airspace against the repeated violations

    Next, Germany/Luxembourg declared that Turkey cannot count on NATO support if there is a conflict with Russia in Syria. “NATO cannot allow itself to be pulled into a military escalation with Russia as a result of tensions between the two” Briefly: You cannot invoke article 4

    Btw, US and Germany earlier in October 2015, a month before the downing of the jet, pulled their missile defense systems from Turkey. Not only US and NATO didn’t want to support Turkey against Russia, they also didn’t want to keep their missile defense systems in the country

    Meanwhile, U.S. decides to establish a partnership with PKK’s Syrian armed wing YPG against ISIS. YPG seizes key cities along Turkish-Syrian border, creating concerns that YPG will be able to capture the whole border area. Turkey looks for an exit. Then comes Russia again

    Turkey wants to clear ISIS from Jarablus, but it couldn’t do that. Because Russians were threatening Turkish jets. In fear of an emerging PKK state in its borders, Turkey decides to sign a reconciliation deal with Russia, in order to operate freely and seize the territory

    As far as I gather from Turkish sources, Russians had a condition for the reconciliation deal: • Turkey would need to make a major Russian arms purchase as compensation for the downed jet and the killed pilot. Turkey takes the deal.
    (The most important tweet which proves ruskies are nothing less in balls squeezing if you want help) o_O


    For Turkish officials in Ankara, after the coup attempt in July 2016, S-400 seemed like a good solution for Russian demands. At the time; there was no CAATSA, US didn’t want to sell a defense system to Turkey, and no one brought up S-400s possible implications on F-35.

    So until this point: • US/NATO didn’t ensure Turkey about threats posed by Russia in Syria • US partners with Ankara’s arch enemy. Turkey is fearful of a PKK state in itsborder • US doesn’t want to sell an air system to Turkey (They didn’t even want to sell smart munition)

    So, July 2017. US learns that Turkey is going to purchase S-400s. What is the US talking point then? “How do you inter-operate in the NATO system?” asked then-US Defense Secretary Mattis. No mention of F-35

    Btw, at this point Turkey had already signed the S-400 deal. • The deal was inked by April 2017 • Trump signs CAATSA in law, August 2017 US waits until November 2017 to issue a soft threat about F-35.

    I was in Washington between 2014-2019. NOT A SINGLE US OFFICIAL I talked believed that Turkey would actually buy S-400: •“It is a bluff” for concessions. • “I wouldn’t believe that for a second until I see with my own eyes that S-400s are actually in Turkey”

    Turkish officials? They didn’t also believed that US was actually going to sanction Turkey over S-400z • “It is a bluff” to make us buy Patriots • “They cannot force us out of F-35 program” So on and so forth. Both sides didn’t believe each other for a second.

    I Believe this "it is a bluff" will surely repeat with USA and India too on S-400 :laugh:

    No genuine effort shown by both sides to resolve the S-400 crisis. Both thought the other was bluffing. • US was wrong to underestimate Turkey’s resolve. Failed to understand Turkey’s security concerns • Turkey needed to see that S-400 is a genuine threat to F-35

    END
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Looks like we are dreaming same that US will sell us F-18 and possible F-35 after we get S-400. I see its dead end either we forget S-400 or We forget US tech . We are not going to get both . It didn't took much time for Turkey to go from trusted NATO ally to Pariah just because solely Turkey wanted to secure its interest .

    What will happen to us if we want to secure our interest will US act the same way . Lets not forget Russia is not any loyal friends its basically a rouge Arms dealer who want to sell all its obsolete and advanced systems for price

    "I am happy Ottaman is getting screwed as he always used to come to Aid of Paki pigs " But still the behaviour of USA is what we should be worried about



     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
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  16. Vijyes

    Vijyes Senior Member Senior Member

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    Why would Russia want Turkey to buy its weapons? What does Russia get from it? The cost was just 2.5 billion dollars, that too, over 5 years. This is just 500 million a year.

    Why would Russia help Turkey when it is a jihadist country that downed Russian jet? Why would Russia dishonour its own soldiers this way by giving free help to enemy?

    India doesn't care for USA. USA gives nothing to India and there is no meaningful defence relationship between India and USA.

    Only you & @vampyrbladez dream that. None else support USA planes. People know the behaviour of USA.

    How did you make an arbitrary assumption? Russian behaviour towards enemy states will be different from friendly states. Countries like India and China have been friendly to Russia consistently. So, Russian behaviour to India will be strategic and non commercial in nature while that towards traditionally hostile states like west and Islamic countries will be more cut-throat
     
  17. vampyrbladez

    vampyrbladez Senior Member Senior Member

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    Buying stuff from US gives us negotiations based leverage over Russia and saves us from CATSAA by giving us waivers.

    It also helps in buying from European weapon manufacturers and suppliers.
     
  18. Vijyes

    Vijyes Senior Member Senior Member

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    Why would Russia want Turkey to buy its weapons? What does Russia get from it? The cost was just 2.5 billion dollars, that too, over 5 years. This is just 500 million a year.

    Why would Russia help Turkey when it is a jihadist country that downed Russian jet? Why would Russia dishonour its own soldiers this way by giving free help to enemy?

    India doesn't care for USA. USA gives nothing to India and there is no meaningful defence relationship between India and USA.

    Only you & @vampyrbladez dream that. None else support USA planes. People know the behaviour of USA.

    How did you make an arbitrary assumption? Russian behaviour towards enemy states will be different from friendly states. Countries like India and China have been friendly to Russia consistently. So, Russian behaviour to India will be strategic and non commercial in nature while that towards traditionally hostile states like west and Islamic countries will be more
    Which weapons are you going to leverage while buying Russian weapons? Why does CAATSA even matter if India doesn't have any dependence on USA weapons? CAATSA is only to arm twist those who have USA weapons from switching the supply to Russian ones.

    Which weapon system is India getting from Europe with full Technology transfer? Even Rafale will have Indian AESA ans engine. European companies don't give critical Technology transfer to India. Only Russia does give critical technology to India.
     
  19. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    Russia gets money out of it, isn't that the whole point of arms sales?

    If US sanctions Turkey and stops proving further weapons systems, then Russia gets to sell them more. Isn't that good for Russia?
     
  20. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    S 400 missile system to India.
     

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