India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

Adioz

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Lots of incorrect reporting here. We are paying more for 5 regiments because the scale of each regiment in the Indian context is bigger. Each regiment in the Indian context could have between 2-4 battalions, each battalion with 4 fire units of 4 laucnhers each. Heck even the Chinese ordered 3 regiments for 3 billion, for them each regiment has 2 battalions and each battalion in their setup has 8 launchers and 112 missiles bringing their order total to 48 launchers and missile count to 672 . Even if we have the same set-up, we are looking at atleast 80 launchers and nearly 1200 missiles.

Secondly, it is entirely incorrect to say that S-400 will be deployed to protect 2-3 cities. The S-400 is being acquired primarily to enforce no fly zones over virtually all of Puki air space and the eastern frontier. Around 3-4 regiments will be based in key areas facing the western and eastern frontier. They'll be kept in classfied undergound shelters and will move out to various pre desginated firing locations when needed. These top secret under ground shelters will never be more than 20-30 km away from the border. The idea is to have maximum coverage into threat zones. 1 Regiment with it's split battalions will certainly be kept near large airlift hubs from where they can be quickly airlifted to threat zones as when needed to bolster the area wide defence.
Sir, I think you mean to say "batteries", not "battalions". One regiment / missile group has 3 batteries?

The difference is China will have theirs in pieces trying to copy it while India's will be doing what it was built to do.
:rofl:

Are you sure we are getting 40N6????
The missiles India will get in package
*The 48N6E3/48N6DM long range missile is capable of destroying airborne targets at ranges up to 250 km (160 mi).Semi-active radar homing head.
*The 9M96E2 extended range missile is capable of destroying airborne targets at ranges up to 120 km (75 mi). It has the highest hit probability against fast, maneuverable targets such as fighter aircraft. Active radar homing head.
I hope against hope that we get the 40N6. We do not have anything remotely close to that on the horizon. XR-SAM is going to be in the 48N6 class (although with active seeker).

You see, the entire PLAAF air warfare strategy against Indian Air Force's Eastern Air Command revloves around one kind of High Value Target: Air-air refuelers. Without Air-air refueling, PLAAF's capabilities become extremely diminished. So, if we get 40N6, we can gain a strategic upperhand. We need to develop more means to threaten these HVTs which are the linchpin in PLAAF's strategy against India.
 

Mikesingh

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At last!! Introduction of the S-400 system will be a game changer for India. Conventional unstealthy, or partially stealthy combat aircraft will have difficulty surviving within the coverage of the S-400 systems - the high transmit power, large radar and missile seeker apertures, low sidelobes, generous use of monopulse angle tracking and extensive ECCM features make these systems difficult to jam effectively.



A Triumf missile 'battalion' consists of 8 launchers and 112 missiles. (Russian Artillery Battalion = IA arty Regiment). This AD system will be a huge force multiplier for India. Let's hope there are no more bureaucratic delays in its acquisition.
 

Immanuel

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Sir, I think you mean to say "batteries", not "battalions". One regiment / missile group has 3 batteries?
No Sir please, bhai is fine. A S-400 comes in different states of capability and we can choose from having between 2,3 or 4 battallions per Regiment, each battalion has 4 fire units or batteries of 4 launchers each.

Usually Batteries in terms of SAM arrangement is the same as a fire unit which consistes of a few launcher, battery level radar, command center, missile loaders and other equipment. Each battery or fire unit would be placed in the case of the S-400

Looking at the price of the 5 regiments, I expect we should be getting atleast 2 or 3 battalions per regiment. China ordered 6 battalions or 3 basic regiments for about 3 Billion, we should be having atleast 10-15 Battalions considering we are paying 6 Billion.
 

Adioz

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No Sir please, bhai is fine. A S-400 comes in different states of capability and we can choose from having between 2,3 or 4 battallions per Regiment, each battalion has 4 fire units or batteries of 4 launchers each.

Usually Batteries in terms of SAM arrangement is the same as a fire unit which consistes of a few launcher, battery level radar, command center, missile loaders and other equipment. Each battery or fire unit would be placed in the case of the S-400

Looking at the price of the 5 regiments, I expect we should be getting atleast 2 or 3 battalions per regiment. China ordered 6 battalions or 3 basic regiments for about 3 Billion, we should be having atleast 10-15 Battalions considering we are paying 6 Billion.
Reproducing an earlier conversation:-
China buys 6 systems @ 3 billion $.
India buys 5 systems @ 5 billion $.
Guys, what am I missing here?
China has bought six fire units with three BMS command units

the S400 system composition has four core components:
  1. The 30K6E battle management system, comprising the 55K6E Command Post and 91N6E Big Bird acquisition radar;
  2. Up to six 98Zh6E Fire Units, each comprising a 92N6E Grave Stone “multimode” engagement radar, up to twelve 5P85SE2 / 5P85TE2 TELs, each TEL armed with up to four 48N6E2/E3 missiles;
  3. A complement of SAM rounds, comprising arbitrary mixes of the 48N6E, 48N6E2 and 48N6E3;
  4. The 30Ts6E logistical support system, comprising missile storage, test and maintenance equipments.
All system components are carried by self-propelled wheeled all-terrain chassis, and have autonomous power supplies, navigation and geo-location systems, communications and life support equipment. Mains power grid converters are installed for fixed site operations.

The Indian Deal AFAIK includes at least ten fire units with 5 command posts, this also mean the system can be scaled up later with more fire units as and when necessary.
The Russians have deployed 152 launchers in approx 19 fire units as on date.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I am confused.:confused1:

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@gadeshi any news on whether we're getting the Pantsyr Bodyguard as well?
Will that requirement not be met by indigenous QRSAM+AAA?
AFAIK, Pantsyr is a next gen Tunguska. No need for different systems with same roles. Increases logistical strain. Can we not rely on QRSAM and AAA for point defence of the S-400s?
Indigenous QRSAM still a few years away from deployment, we will need dedicated bodyguards for the S400. Tungushkas are attached to strike columns. We are looking for more modern SPAAGs lesse which one makes it.
What say now @bengalraider sir? QRSAM might come before S400.:)
 

lcafanboy

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Russia’s S-400 Is Way More Dangerous Than You Think
Published January 22, 2018 | By admin SOURCE: Asia Times




One use of the S-400 long-range missile is against stand-off systems including flying command posts and aircraft such as the E-3 Sentry AWACS. These aircraft, which are used by the US and its NATO allies with a squadron stationed in Japan at Kadena AFB and in the UAE at al-Dhafra, are vulnerable to S-400 interceptors and lose their stand-off range protection. We may be reaching the end of the AWACS capability, which were originally designed in the 1960s.

Saudi Arabia’s agreement to purchase the S-400 anti-aircraft Triumf anti-missile system from Russia is a major blow to the United States and its European allies.

The deal follows Turkey’s $2.5 billion agreement to buy the S-400, and ongoing negotiations with Egypt for the S-400. Egypt already has the S-300VM system (also known as the Antey 2500) which can engage short- and intermediate-range ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, precision guided weapons, strategic and tactical aircraft, as well as early warning and electronic warfare aircraft. (Originally the S-400 was called the S-300 PMU-3.)

Among other countries with the S-300 system are Greece, a NATO ally who got them from Cyprus when the Turks threatened Cyprus with war unless the country gave up its missiles. Thus, they were given to Greece to defuse a crisis with Turkey.

There are other users of these systems. There is China, of course, but also India, Ukraine, Venezuela and NATO member Bulgaria, to name a few.


But the S-400 is the real game changer. The reason is the multiple intercept missiles the S-400 system can fire. The S-400 supports four different missiles – the very long range 40N6E-series (400 km), the long range 48N6 (250 km), the 9M96e2 (120 km) and the short range 9m96e (40 km). By comparison the US Patriot system supports only one interceptor missile with a range of 96 km.

But there is more. The 9M96E2 is one of the jewels of the S-400 system. It flies at Mach 15 (around 5,000 meters per second or 18,500 kph), it can engage targets as low as 5 meters off the ground, and it can maneuver pulling up to 20 Gs (a human can withstand no more than 9 Gs with special pressure suits and helmets and for only a few seconds). It is designed to knock out penetrating aircraft and missiles flying “off the deck” or just above ground and neutralize cruise missiles.

Dr. Carlo Kopp, one of the world’s top aerospace experts, says the S-400 has optional acquisition radars designed to defeat modern stealth aircraft such as the F-22 and the F-35. They work by operating in multiple frequency bands including both VHF and L bands that can “see” stealth-protected fighters. Stealth designs have been built on low-detection by X-band radars, the most common military and civilian radars (others such as C-band – now known as the G/H band – are less prevalent). The F-35 has stealth protection mainly in the front of the aircraft, meaning that when it turns away from its target it is vulnerable.

In time, the entire air defense system of the US and its allies, all based primarily on X band, will become obsolete as China and Russia move toward stealth aircraft and missiles. Along with the radar enhancements (which may or may not be delivered to foreign customers), Russia has a formidable integrated air defense system even though the size of its truly modern aircraft fleet is quite small compared to the United States and NATO.

Russia lost a decade in the arms race when it had no money to develop and build new aircraft, and its economy today barely supports acquisition of effective numbers of new equipment. Indeed, one of the reasons Russia developed its air defenses along with wanting to counter US stealth aircraft and cruise missiles is because it could not afford a big fleet of modern fighter aircraft. (The US administration and Congress should pay close attention to Russia’s limited offensive capabilities, not too often done these days of anti-Russian hysteria in Washington.)

One use of the S-400 long-range missile is against stand-off systems including flying command posts and aircraft such as the E-3 Sentry AWACS. These aircraft, which are used by the US and its NATO allies with a squadron stationed in Japan at Kadena AFB and in the UAE at al-Dhafra, are vulnerable to S-400 interceptors and lose their stand-off range protection. We may be reaching the end of the AWACS capability, which were originally designed in the 1960s. The S-400 also has capability against ballistic missiles, a feature that surely attracted Saudi Arabia’s interest.

How good it is against ballistic missiles? No one knows for sure. The Saudi decision to buy the S-400 is probably linked to Egypt’s earlier purchase of the S-300VM and desire to get the S-400. Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states probably paid for Egypt’s weapons. The Russians have definitely made a breakthrough with sales of weapons to some NATO countries with uncertain futures in the bloc (e.g. Greece, Turkey) and strong US client countries such as Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states such as the UAE.

One immediate new example: Russia says the UAE is just months away from buying the formidable Su-35 multirole fighter jet, the current Queen of the Russian Air Force fighter fleet. The Russian breakthrough makes sense in technological terms. The US does not have a true competitor to the S-400 system and the US is not anxious to see such systems proliferate. Too bad and too late.

http://idrw.org/russias-s-400-way-dangerous-think/#more-160245 .
 

gadeshi

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The difference is China will have theirs in pieces trying to copy it while India's will be doing what it was built to do.
Chinese are in Variant B while Indian will be in Variant A.

Also wide MII tradeoffs will be offered.

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gadeshi

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Are you sure we are getting 40N6????
The missiles India will get in package
*The 48N6E3/48N6DM long range missile is capable of destroying airborne targets at ranges up to 250 km (160 mi).Semi-active radar homing head.
*The 9M96E2 extended range missile is capable of destroying airborne targets at ranges up to 120 km (75 mi). It has the highest hit probability against fast, maneuverable targets such as fighter aircraft. Active radar homing head.
*The 9M96E medium range missile.
40N6E (up to 400km on aerodynamical target) is the only reason to get S-400 over S-300PMU-2 (like Iranians got) that can operate 48N6E as a primary weapon.

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gadeshi

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Sir, I think you mean to say "batteries", not "battalions". One regiment / missile group has 3 batteries?


:rofl:


I hope against hope that we get the 40N6. We do not have anything remotely close to that on the horizon. XR-SAM is going to be in the 48N6 class (although with active seeker).

You see, the entire PLAAF air warfare strategy against Indian Air Force's Eastern Air Command revloves around one kind of High Value Target: Air-air refuelers. Without Air-air refueling, PLAAF's capabilities become extremely diminished. So, if we get 40N6, we can gain a strategic upperhand. We need to develop more means to threaten these HVTs which are the linchpin in PLAAF's strategy against India.
Any heavy AD regiment consists of 2-4 battallions each of which contains 2-4 batteries of 4 TELs and 4 TLVs each + FC radar + Gazetchik-M self-defence suit + Nakidka-M cloaking/masking suit + 1 batrery of Pantsyr-S1/2 + Taifun-M anti-diversal suit + engineering suit + 4 liasion units.

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Adioz

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India, Russia fail to finalize S-400 air-defense deal

Russia is demanding $5.5 billion for the five [S-400] units, very high training fee and refusing to give technology transfer of three types of guided missiles,” the official said, adding that no plan has yet been offered for service and a spares-support package.



Another MoD official said the final contract is not going to be signed anytime soon, and India will not pay more than $4.5 billion for the systems. He noted that the deal would incorporate a Make in India economic policy in regard to the manufacturing of spares, the guided missiles and a life-time service support package.

Rosoboronexport executives were unavailable for comment.

If I was there: Bhaiya na aapki na hamari, $5 billion pe deal pakki karte hain? Lao ladoo lao.:laugh:
 

Prashant12

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S-400 deal may be finalised by March 31


India and Russia could be just weeks away from signing one of the biggest defence deals between the two sides in recent history, said two senior defence sources this week.

The contract negotiations for the purchase of the S-400 Triumf long range air defence systems are in the final stages, and are expected to be closed by March 31.

India is planning to buy five systems that is expected to cost about ₹39,000 crore and is considered one of the most potent Surface to Air missile systems in the world. It can track and shoot down a range of incoming airborne targets at ranges of upto 400km.

“We expect to conclude the S-400 contract within this financial year,” a defence source said.

In 2016, the two countries had concluded the Inter-Governmental Agreements for five S-400 systems and four stealth frigates after which the contract negotiations began to conclude a commercial contract.

Another defence official said they expect to wind up the cost negotiations within the next 10 days.

Officials termed the negotiations as “very complex” as there were thousands of pages of documentation to be discussed. Russia has already conveyed to India that the deal should not have any offset clause as it is a strategic system.

For India, deploying the S-400 means that Pakistani aircraft can be tracked even when they are flying in their airspace. This will significantly beef up India’s alert levels in securing the country’s air space. The systems will be operated by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

China which has signed a $3 billion deal for six S-400 systems in 2014 has begun taking delivery of them. In December 2017, Turkey signed an agreement for two systems.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/s-400-deal-may-be-finalised-by-march-31/article23162879.ece
 

Tanmay

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Wiki mentions Reliance as a partner for this deal for maintenance:p
more fireworks expected in parliament.

S400 seems to be Chinese oriented rather than pakis who are already troubled with Akash,MRSAM, Spyder SAM deployment.

Approx how many batallions to protect a city like Delhi?
 

WolfPack86

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Finally date is out for signing S-400 deal. i think this month itself we will ink deal.
 

indus

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This year too India is declared the World s largest arms importer. And we will continue to be ranked first till we start dumping imported maal for desi projects.
 

AmoghaVarsha

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The turks have signed to buy 2 sysyems. Thats as good as Pakis having 2 systems.

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Armand2REP

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40N6E (up to 400km on aerodynamical target) is the only reason to get S-400 over S-300PMU-2 (like Iranians got) that can operate 48N6E as a primary weapon.

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Is there any evidence that 40N6 missile is even in production? The last time I checked it had not been seen with any S-400 battery in operation.
 

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