India-Pakistan: Can We Ever Be Friends?

[Mikesingh]

Here are the reasons why peace can never be achieved until there's a paradigm shift in the psyche of the powers that be.

The problem lies in the fact that the Zia doctrine is alive and kicking in the PA. 'Bleeding India with a thousand cuts' is their signature tune especially after the 1971 war. Retribution for the loss is foremost in the psyche of the PA. They need to hurt India to get even. So any attempt at a detente is going to be a non-starter - unless of course there is a shift in this stereotypical thinking.

The second side of the triangle is the insecurity of the PA. They seem to be paranoid about being enveloped by India in the East, and Afghanistan supported by India in the West and therefore are propping up the Taliban (Haqqani) to take over the helm after American troops withdraw. For this they have been supping with the devil for the past 10 years, playing a game of running with the hare and hunting with the hounds. The Americans know this but are caught in a cleft stick as without Pakistan the cost of the WOT in Afghanistan would become prohibitive. If the Pakistan Establishment hadn't helped and supported the Taliban all these years, the game would have been over in Afghanistan long ago.

This has resulted in drone attacks that have killed hundreds of terrorists but resulted in collateral damage too which in turn has given birth to the TTP which has been responsible for the massive casualties of Pakistanis - more than 50,000 soldiers and civilians killed and many more wounded. This has also given birth to a number of militant groups, all jostling for space. The Establishment's support to terrorist groups to fight their wars against India by proxy has started getting out of control with splinter groups charting their own course by getting help of groups inimical to Pakistan's interests. This melds into the third side of the triangle which is:

The need of the PA to keep the Indian 'threat' alive, without which the very raison d'etre of the PA would be at stake. Otherwise they would be sidelined and lose their credibility and importance in Pakistan. So they need an enemy to keep up the charade, which needless to say is India.

At the center of this triangle are the vested interests that need to keep Indo-Pak hostilities going and the pot boiling. An example is the JuD that collects millions of rupees from the sheeple by its anti-India tirades, without which contributions would dry up. They need a reason which is the 'liberation of Kashmir'. A very convenient motive as this could last for decades resulting in a steady flow of funds.


I would also hasten to add that the Indian media and some politicians need to tone down their rhetoric and stop bashing Pakistan at the drop of a hat. This is vitiating the atmosphere, blowing out the sputtering candle of peace in the wind of hostility by providing a handle to the India baiters to up the ante.

So, it's not just the conversion of the LoC or other such simplistic proposals that would sort out the Indo-Pak problem as many are led to believe. There are wheels within wheels - almost impossible to extricate from. And therefore, though Aman ki Asha is a noble concept, it will remain a non starter till well into the future.


What do you guys think? Is there hope?

 

[vayuu1]

Here are the reasons why peace can never be achieved until there's a paradigm shift in the psyche of the powers that be.

The problem lies in the fact that the Zia doctrine is alive and kicking in the PA. 'Bleeding India with a thousand cuts' is their signature tune especially after the 1971 war. Retribution for the loss is foremost in the psyche of the PA. They need to hurt India to get even. So any attempt at a detente is going to be a non-starter - unless of course there is a shift in this stereotypical thinking.

The second side of the triangle is the insecurity of the PA. They seem to be paranoid about being enveloped by India in the East, and Afghanistan supported by India in the West and therefore are propping up the Taliban (Haqqani) to take over the helm after American troops withdraw. For this they have been supping with the devil for the past 10 years, playing a game of running with the hare and hunting with the hounds. The Americans know this but are caught in a cleft stick as without Pakistan the cost of the WOT in Afghanistan would become prohibitive. If the Pakistan Establishment hadn't helped and supported the Taliban all these years, the game would have been over in Afghanistan long ago.

This has resulted in drone attacks that have killed hundreds of terrorists but resulted in collateral damage too which in turn has given birth to the TTP which has been responsible for the massive casualties of Pakistanis - more than 50,000 soldiers and civilians killed and many more wounded. This has also given birth to a number of militant groups, all jostling for space. The Establishment's support to terrorist groups to fight their wars against India by proxy has started getting out of control with splinter groups charting their own course by getting help of groups inimical to Pakistan's interests. This melds into the third side of the triangle which is:

The need of the PA to keep the Indian 'threat' alive, without which the very raison d'etre of the PA would be at stake. Otherwise they would be sidelined and lose their credibility and importance in Pakistan. So they need an enemy to keep up the charade, which needless to say is India.

At the center of this triangle are the vested interests that need to keep Indo-Pak hostilities going and the pot boiling. An example is the JuD that collects millions of rupees from the sheeple by its anti-India tirades, without which contributions would dry up. They need a reason which is the 'liberation of Kashmir'. A very convenient motive as this could last for decades resulting in a steady flow of funds.


I would also hasten to add that the Indian media and some politicians need to tone down their rhetoric and stop bashing Pakistan at the drop of a hat. This is vitiating the atmosphere, blowing out the sputtering candle of peace in the wind of hostility by providing a handle to the India baiters to up the ante.

So, it's not just the conversion of the LoC or other such simplistic proposals that would sort out the Indo-Pak problem as many are led to believe. There are wheels within wheels - almost impossible to extricate from. And therefore, though Aman ki Asha is a noble concept, it will remain a non starter till well into the future.


What do you guys think? Is there hope?

Nope, never, katu putram kabhi na mitram, jab mitram tab daga daga.

 

[Bornubus]

A coup under Obama has more chance than India Pak become friends,unless they or us convers to a single faith.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

There is a hope if outside interference ceases.

 

[punjab47]

Yes, if we kill/convert them all & give it few centuries. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional & best used as cannon fodder.

 

[FRYCRY]

Yes, please get me a paki gf :biggrin2:

 

[rockey 71]

We all can. Just listen to Reshma.

 

[Sylex21]

Honestly people see peace or war with Pakistan as an all or nothing, but it doesn't really need to be. Actors should produce joint movies, doctors should work together to save lives, business men should do business, soldiers should fight, politicians should play political games between the two nations, the spy agencies should attempt to wage 4th generation war on each other. Everyone should follow their own role and place in life.

 

[Bengal_Tiger]

OP is basically right in everything he's said. My two cents are this.

1. The army needs an enemy to make itself feel good as a "heroic" martial force and also to justify its money and power. The Pakistan army is a huge organization and supposedly the largest employer in the Punjab, this in a poor third world country.

2. The Pakistan army is essentially a Punjabi organization with some house-negro "Pathans" and others. Pakistan is greater Punjab and the Punjabi generals like Raheel Sharif know that. Punjabi nationalism is Pakistani nationalism e.g. a Punjabi will shout "Pakistan Zindabad" in situations of rallying to a patriotic cry because he knows they rule Pakistan and the only time they (Punjabi Muslims) have had any glory is this current state of Pakistan.


3. The Pakistan army is funded, trained and supported by the Americans who are all to happy to see it fund terrorists and militants, they worked together on that in Afghanistan, and destabilize south Asia.

With that being said, what is the solution?

India is doing the right thing and the only sane thing.

a: Focusing on economic development, highest in the world

Bangladesh is on track to log in the second best economic growth figure this year out of 93 countries, according to American news organisation Bloomberg.

Bloomberg forecasts that Bangla-desh's economy will grow at 6.6 percent in 2016, a joint second rank with Vietnam. The rate is the second fastest pace after India, which is expected to clock in 7.4 percent growth.

http://www.thedailystar.net/business/bangladesh-be-second-best-performer-year-200977


Just ignoring the nuisance that is the failed state of Pakistan and focusing on India acquiring as much possible parity with China, a real power, is the most sensible thing India can do. The Pakistanis can make themselves try to feel good by a few pinprick attacks here and there such as Mumbai and Pathankot, which obviously outrage people, but in the wider scheme of things e.g. economic development are almost inconsequential.


b: Support freedom movements in Pakistan morally or elsewise.


Can Pakistan invade India? NO

Can Pakistan militarily retake Kashmir? NO

Can Pakistan stop Indian economic growth? NO

Fundamentally Pakistan is wasting its own time, money, effort and resources in trying to deal with its own inferiority complex (of trying to be equal to India i.e. small penis syndrome) whilst India grows economically.

Even a lot of Muslim countries have better relations with India than they do with Pakistan e.g. Iran, Central Asian states, some of the gulf states (aside from some expressions of religious sentiment).

Whilst Pakistan wastes time on trying to hurt India and deal with its small penis syndrome, their 0.2 billion population continues to expand in their conflict-ridden society and it continues going down the path of another implosion or division et la 1971.

 

[Indibomber]

Yes, please get me a paki gf :biggrin2:

Paki GF or Paki Slave:biggrin2:?

 

[Bengal_Tiger]

Just to add Pakistan cannot invade India, cannot capture Kashmir, cannot sabotage Indian economic growth and over the years India has actually got stronger.

1. Khalistan: India has basically resolved the separatist problem there.

2/ Maoists: More or less under check, despite MM Singh a few years ago during his tenure saying it was the biggest threat to Indian national security.

3. North east separatists: Hardly a major problem any more and helping India-friendly forces to gain power in Bangladesh helped in that.

4. Bangladesh: Pakistan in the form of its proxy the BNP-Jamaat nexus has been booted out of the country and severely weakened (the Jamaat nexus and cadres are being pulverized by Hasina e.g. mass arrests etc). So Pakistan trying to weaken India on its eastern flank has been ended.

So on all fronts India has made many successes whilst enjoying economic growth, space missions to Mars and so forth.

Pakistan is no real threat and even if it was before, as the four examples above show it is not really any more.

 

[Rowdy]

We are besties of the best bestests friends already

 

[Navneet Kundu]

Yes, please get me a paki gf :biggrin2:

Here's your Paki gf. You're welcome.

The stereotype of the 'beautiful Pakistani girls' is a hoax. The fair and lovely ladies you see on Pakistani electronic media, and news channels are handpicked elites of Sindhi origin. There is nothing integrally Pakistani about them. Pakistan inherited them as a byproduct of Partition. The only Pakistani thing which is inherently Pakistani in character and better than Indian is the sports goods (esp. cricket bats) that they manufacture. Everything else is an extension of the same statistical sample set that we see in India including mangoes.

 

[Bornubus]

Here's your Paki gf. You're welcome.

The stereotype of the 'beautiful Pakistani girls' is a hoax. The fair and lovely ladies you see on Pakistani electronic media, and news channels are handpicked elites of Sindhi origin. There is nothing integrally Pakistani about them. Pakistan inherited them as a byproduct of Partition. The only Pakistani thing which is inherently Pakistani in character and better than Indian is the sports goods (esp. cricket bats) that they manufacture. Everything else is an extension of the same statistical sample set that we see in India including mangoes.

Pakistan is leftover of persians,Mauryan, kushan, Indo Greeks,Huns, Shakas, Arabs, Turks, Mughals, Sikhs and British.

They don't even have indigenous names but a mix of perisan/turk/arab.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Pakistan cannot sabotage Indian economic growth any more.

Actually they can, and they are. The Kashmir issue is about just that. If Gilgit-Baltistan was a part of India, that would allow India access to Central Asian Republics, Afghanistan, Iran, Europe. This has huge economic potential. As long as Gilgit-Baltistan remains in Pakistani control, India remains boxed in as a land locked country cornered by Pakistan and China. And so Pakistan is sabotaging Indian economic growth. The whole point of the 1948 Kashmir war was to achieve this very goal. It was smartly planned by the British. COAS of Indian and Pakistani army were both British. They were given precise instructions about when to stop fighting and draw the line so as to deliberately create the messy problem of Kashmir. On the Indian side, they advised Nehru to get the instrument of accession, on the Pakistani side, they made sure that Pakistan grabbed half of the land despite the instrument of accession. So India claims Kashmir by law and Pakistan claims it by, well (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_is_nine-tenths_of_the_law). This confrontation is the backdoor which allows the west to have a foothold in the region and impose a de facto economic blockade on India.

You have severely downplayed all other Indian internal threats, let;s not get into details but almost all of them are alive and ticking. Even the present administration has made statements asserting that Naxals are the biggest internal threat to India.

As Indians, we are happy with the general direction that Bangladesh has taken. It's the fastest growing economy I suppose. 10 more years of Hasina and the restive population will have been pacified as well. Modi handed over a dossier to Hasina when he met her at the UN. It was an intelligence report about a western nation trying to topple her government. It was averted by Bangladesh - India joint action. This paved the way for further trust building and co-operation and led to a successful visit by Modi to Bangladesh.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Afghan consulate official's house attacked in Pakistan

So, after making all those lofty statements to the world about Pakistan's commitment to mend its ways, its back to its dirty tricks. THIS is why no country can be friends with Pakistan.

 

[Bengal_Tiger]

Actually they can, and they are. The Kashmir issue is about just that. If Gilgit-Baltistan was a part of India, that would allow India access to Central Asian Republics, Afghanistan, Iran, Europe. This has huge economic potential.

Yes but that is for India to increase its growth. Pakistan has not been able to and cannot sabotage India's already existing economic growth, e.g. Sino-Indian trade is heading towards $100 billion. Do you think the Chinese would jeopardise trade with India, market of over a billion people for Pakistan?

As for the geographic limitations on India that is routine stuff. The Japanese are a group of islands in what would otherwise be considered a remote irrelevant part of the world not connected to Europe, the middle east but by virtue of their hardwork they made their country successful. India is in a far more advantageous situation geographically e.g. close to the Gulf, next to ASEAN, next to China etc, even the central Asia issue can be sorted out via the new port in Iran that connects to Afghanistan, not perfect but no way as problematic as Japan's location, South Korea's, Taiwans and others. Israel is isolated in their region but they are prosperous.

This confrontation is the backdoor which allows the west to have a foothold in the region and impose a de facto economic blockade on India.

The British deliberately left hot spots in different regions of the world to destabilize them and cause problems, including tricky problematic borders:

a: Israel/Palestine in the middle east
b: Cyprus in the Mediterranean, with Greece and Turkey suffering.
c: Northern Ireland
d: Kashmir in addition to awkard borders for India and the then united Pakistan e.g. Sigiluri corridor between India and Bangladesh as well as Feni.

You have severely downplayed all other Indian internal threats, let;s not get into details but almost all of them are alive and ticking. Even the present administration has made statements asserting that Naxals are the biggest internal threat to India.

I'm definitely not an expert on India by any stretch of the imagination and it would be somewhat obnoxious if I started lecturing Indians on the intricacies of their own country. My general impression, perhaps wrong is Khalistan, Naxals, N.E. Assam, though not fully resolved were in a far better situation than in the past.

Modi handed over a dossier to Hasina when he met her at the UN. It was an intelligence report about a western nation trying to topple her government. It was averted by Bangladesh - India joint action. This paved the way for further trust building and co-operation and led to a successful visit by Modi to Bangladesh.

Can you elaborate on this please. What is your source, or are you familiar with MoE officials and grapevine, chat?

I think what you're saying is right as it explains certain things and yes I am definitely of the opinion that it's quite possible a western state (read America, as Germany, France etc have no major interests in Bangladesh and Britain only works in conjunction with the US on such things) wanted to overthrow Hasina. Why?

 

[Samar Rathi]

Yes but that is for India to increase its growth. Pakistan has not been able to and cannot sabotage India's already existing economic growth, e.g. Sino-Indian trade is heading towards $100 billion. Do you think the Chinese would jeopardise trade with India, market of over a billion people for Pakistan?

As for the geographic limitations on India that is routine stuff. The Japanese are a group of islands in what would otherwise be considered a remote irrelevant part of the world not connected to Europe, the middle east but by virtue of their hardwork they made their country successful. India is in a far more advantageous situation geographically e.g. close to the Gulf, next to ASEAN, next to China etc, even the central Asia issue can be sorted out via the new port in Iran that connects to Afghanistan, not perfect but no way as problematic as Japan's location, South Korea's, Taiwans and others. Israel is isolated in their region but they are prosperous.



The British deliberately left hot spots in different regions of the world to destabilize them and cause problems, including tricky problematic borders:

a: Israel/Palestine in the middle east
b: Cyprus in the Mediterranean, with Greece and Turkey suffering.
c: Northern Ireland
d: Kashmir in addition to awkard borders for India and the then united Pakistan e.g. Sigiluri corridor between India and Bangladesh as well as Feni.



I'm definitely not an expert on India by any stretch of the imagination and it would be somewhat obnoxious if I started lecturing Indians on the intricacies of their own country. My general impression, perhaps wrong is Khalistan, Naxals, N.E. Assam, though not fully resolved were in a far better situation than in the past.



Can you elaborate on this please. What is your source, or are you familiar with MoE officials and grapevine, chat?

I think what you're saying is right as it explains certain things and yes I am definitely of the opinion that it's quite possible a western state (read America, as Germany, France etc have no major interests in Bangladesh and Britain only works in conjunction with the US on such things) wanted to overthrow Hasina. Why?

http://www.pangeatoday.com/u-s-paid-indian-party-to-overthrow-bangladeshi-govt/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...adesh-foils-plot-to-overthrow-government.html

Just Past trials but i also heard USA/west wanted to overthrow Hassina and it was joint covert ops by Indo-bangla to avoid this coup.

 

[Samar Rathi]

Yes but that is for India to increase its growth. Pakistan has not been able to and cannot sabotage India's already existing economic growth, e.g. Sino-Indian trade is heading towards $100 billion. Do you think the Chinese would jeopardise trade with India, market of over a billion people for Pakistan?

As for the geographic limitations on India that is routine stuff. The Japanese are a group of islands in what would otherwise be considered a remote irrelevant part of the world not connected to Europe, the middle east but by virtue of their hardwork they made their country successful. India is in a far more advantageous situation geographically e.g. close to the Gulf, next to ASEAN, next to China etc, even the central Asia issue can be sorted out via the new port in Iran that connects to Afghanistan, not perfect but no way as problematic as Japan's location, South Korea's, Taiwans and others. Israel is isolated in their region but they are prosperous.



The British deliberately left hot spots in different regions of the world to destabilize them and cause problems, including tricky problematic borders:

a: Israel/Palestine in the middle east
b: Cyprus in the Mediterranean, with Greece and Turkey suffering.
c: Northern Ireland
d: Kashmir in addition to awkard borders for India and the then united Pakistan e.g. Sigiluri corridor between India and Bangladesh as well as Feni.



I'm definitely not an expert on India by any stretch of the imagination and it would be somewhat obnoxious if I started lecturing Indians on the intricacies of their own country. My general impression, perhaps wrong is Khalistan, Naxals, N.E. Assam, though not fully resolved were in a far better situation than in the past.



Can you elaborate on this please. What is your source, or are you familiar with MoE officials and grapevine, chat?

I think what you're saying is right as it explains certain things and yes I am definitely of the opinion that it's quite possible a western state (read America, as Germany, France etc have no major interests in Bangladesh and Britain only works in conjunction with the US on such things) wanted to overthrow Hasina. Why?

http://allbanglanewspaper.net/jmb-wanted-to-form-bigger-bangladesh-overthrowing-hasina.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahom...angladesh-Mujahideen-links-Islamic-State.html

few more current links for you.

 

[dhananjay1]

This discourse of 'Zia did it' is very popular among English speaking Paki lefties and some section of Indians. Paracha at Dawn constantly keeps harping about it. According to it, Pakistan was a wonderful 'liberal' country, Jinnah was very 'secular' and Zia started to islamize the country. This is all a load of nonsense.

The root cause of Pakistan's existence is Islamic hate for kafirs. Jinnah and Zia didn't invent it, just repackaged it. There never was a Ram-Rahim, ishvar-allah peaceful society. Brits didn't invent Hindu-Muslim division, they just exploited it. History of India for more than a thousand years has been bloody war between Hindus and Muslims and it's going to be more war in near future. Talk of 'friendship' between India-Pakistan is terminal stupidity.