India opens bids in $10.4-bn combat plane tender.

[Galaxy]

Indian MRCA competition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[p2prada]

We have history of License producing Aircrafts and their components. But I still don't understand why we struggle so much with the LCA.

People. There is nothing more important to research than people. People will choose HAL over ADA anyday, so the best get recruited there first and then ADA. People know HAL, they don't know ADA as much as they should.

ADA does not license produce aircraft and they are very ambitious with regard to LCA without any reason at all. This is their biggest problem. Had they chosen Dassault's Analog FBW the LCA would have started flying much earlier. Because of who knows what, they decided to take the longer road and make a digital FBW all by themselves with LM and BAE. Took 6 years getting it into the LCA and voila, LCA finally flew. Force wide induction will happen after a good 15 years considering the 2016 plan goes perfectly. We have to be optimistic on this one.

With basic technologies in place, like fly by wire, engine, design softwares and something called a Plan, ADA may be able to make the AMCA a reality faster than the LCA.

 

[p2prada]

P2P, i was talking in general about the various ToT as well as our own capability to produce the required materials. We may get the entire blue print but what if we dont have the industrial set up to produce that raw material?

Yes. It is quite similar to what is happening with Scorpene. Absorption of technology takes time. Engineers and workers need to be trained and this takes a year or two. The foreign suppliers comparatively have vast experience. In a recent article, IAF says the MKI production will likely be delayed by 2 to 3 years.

One more thing is that if we have got full ToT for the Al 31s, then why are we struggling with the Kaveri? Cant we use the knowledge gained from the Russians? Its not about the AL 31s alone, what about the engines that we have bought over the years?

The Kaveri is different from Al-31 or most of the other engines we have worked on. The people working on AL-31 are just manufacturers, they are not design scientists with Phds. You can say GTRE is not exposed to the AL-31. Technology from GE F-404 will be more useful compared to AL-31, but we don't have access to F-404s critical technologies. Also, a technology obtained from elsewhere cannot simply be copied on to other designs for technical reasons as well as IPR. The design on AL-31 may not be useful in Kaveri. In layman's terms if we have problems with LCA's rudder, we cannot simply rip apart the MKIs rudder and try to fix that on the LCA. It simply won't work. Everything is specifically designed to suit something and they are unique to that design. So, what solutions worked on AL-31's problems may simply be useless in solving Kaveri's problems.

 

[SHASH2K2]

If we are manufacturing engines of AL-31 then we definitely have crystal blade technology . whats so special with European offer of crystal blade technology or french offer to integrete snecma core to Kaveri. Just curious about it .

 

[Yusuf]

P2P,

I talking about understanding the principles of the system and then learning form it to make your own. I mean if we lern how to make single crystal blades, about the materials used, design etc, cant we then apply the same principles to make something on our own? This is but just an example. I am talking about in general learning from ToT and then applying it to our own systems. If the Chinese had got ToT, they would have been far better off than trying to reverse it. At the moment they seem to have a better industrial set up than India and also employ the right minds in the right place to absorb technology.

You will not believe the level of ignorance of some of the engineers in our military industry. I have been in there. The guys could not understand a type of nut and were hunting around wondering what it is and relying on german ones when it is available in plenty in india.

 

[p2prada]

If we are manufacturing engines of AL-31 then we definitely have crystal blade technology . whats so special with European offer of crystal blade technology or french offer to integrete snecma core to Kaveri. Just curious about it .

Single Crystal blade is a technology. The difference comes in the design, metallurgy and manufacturing process. Since we know each of these countries have designed this crucial piece of tech using different methods completely independent from each other, we can use the best practices in making our own in the future.

It's simple, the country which designs materials that can withstand the highest heat, that country will win the battle for making the best engines.

 

[Iamanidiot]

Before we get these planes delivered the planes themselves will get outdated I think

 

[p2prada]

P2P,

I talking about understanding the principles of the system and then learning form it to make your own. I mean if we lern how to make single crystal blades, about the materials used, design etc, cant we then apply the same principles to make something on our own? This is but just an example. I am talking about in general learning from ToT and then applying it to our own systems. If the Chinese had got ToT, they would have been far better off than trying to reverse it. At the moment they seem to have a better industrial set up than India and also employ the right minds in the right place to absorb technology.

Yes they can be. But these can be applied only if we know the design works. We don't know for sure that the Kaveri even works. Considering GTRE is simply dumping Kabini core for French M-88, we know something is not right with Kabini. Kabini is the core of the Kaveri engine.

You will not believe the level of ignorance of some of the engineers in our military industry. I have been in there. The guys could not understand a type of nut and were hunting around wondering what it is and relying on german ones when it is available in plenty in india.

Welcome to India mate. I am very close with this deisgner guy to the point where I even know whose azz to kiss to get my next promotion. His words, "We are like kids compared to them," when I asked him if he plans on joining Boeing's R&D team after having worked under some of our well known aerospace projects after Phd.

 

[Iamanidiot]

Best suggestion ask a couple of bohris to dissect an MRCA fighter we will know what technology is available in India.What spare parts are available and what ToT must be transferred and please somebody shut down the DRDO for good bring in private players

 

[plugwater]

Ok here is the real reason why sarkozy didnt meet Singh.

[h=2]MINUTE BY MINUTE - Leaders of the top 20 world economic powers endorse Cannes for the G20 summit on Thursday and Friday. In substance, the crisis in Greece reached a new climax.[/h]

The G20 summit opened in Cannes on Thursday in an acute crisis. PresidentNicolas Sarkozy had to leave an extraordinary meeting of the euro area to hold under a rainy sky guests, leaders of 20 leading world economies.
The crisis in the euro area has so encroached on the official program that the French president had to cancel his meeting with Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Sing.

Le Figaro - Conjoncture : Référendum en Grèce : le premier ministre isolé

 

[plugwater]

Before we get these planes delivered the planes themselves will get outdated I think

It will be better than what Pakistanis and Chinese will have, so no reason to panic.

 

[Yusuf]

Best suggestion ask a couple of bohris to dissect an MRCA fighter we will know what technology is available in India.What spare parts are available and what ToT must be transferred and please somebody shut down the DRDO for good bring in private players

Id prefer being a middleman and getting $$$ a la Quattorochi

 

[sayareakd]

I wish i was agent for both companies, like the one done for trainer aircraft for IAF. 8)

 

[SPIEZ]

I wish i was agent for both companies, like the one done for trainer aircraft for IAF. 8)

Isn't that another ground for corruption !

 

[SpArK]

 

[nimo_cn]

It will be better than what Pakistanis and Chinese will have, so no reason to panic.

If Indians get the planes now, no doubt they will be superior to anything PLAAF are having. However that is not the case, isn't? How many years is it gonna take for the deal to be finished?

I believe by the time all the planes are delievered, China will have something equivalent to them.

 

[p2prada]

If Indians get the planes now, no doubt they will be superior to anything PLAAF are having. However that is not the case, isn't? How many years is it gonna take for the deal to be finished?

I believe by the time all the planes are delievered, China will have something equivalent to them.

Our build up is nearly the same. You have Flankers and so do we. You have J-20, we have PAKFA. Even the numbers will end up being similar at around 500 heavy fighters for India while it could be a little more for China. It's just that while your low end of the spectrum will be occupied by J-10s our low end will be occupied by the twin engine MRCA fighters. The twin engine advantage is greater and the technology input from the west is even greater. The only way to match that or exceed it, for China, would be to bring in a twin engine stealth fighter in the same class as the AMCA. I am guessing China has that card as well. So, while we have an advantage in the short term that will more or less equalize once we both have twin engine stealth fighters in the AMCA and J-xx.

However the advantage lies with India because you have more enemies to contend with while we don't. Your resources will have to match Russia, Japan, Korea, Taiwan and India with deterrent capability against the US while we don't. Equations would change dramatically if IAF decides on the F-35 instead, but the probability of this happening is very small. IN's decision may affect PLAN's plansP).

 

[ace009]

Ok here is the real reason why sarkozy didnt meet Singh.

[h=2]MINUTE BY MINUTE - Leaders of the top 20 world economic powers endorse Cannes for the G20 summit on Thursday and Friday. In substance, the crisis in Greece reached a new climax.[/h]

The G20 summit opened in Cannes on Thursday in an acute crisis. PresidentNicolas Sarkozy had to leave an extraordinary meeting of the euro area to hold under a rainy sky guests, leaders of 20 leading world economies.
The crisis in the euro area has so encroached on the official program that the French president had to cancel his meeting with Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Sing.

Le Figaro - Conjoncture : R�f�rendum en Gr�ce : le premier ministre isol�

So, "the rag" Pioneer got it's own tea-leaf readers (high on ganja) decided to call the Rafale out?

 

[plugwater]

If Indians get the planes now, no doubt they will be superior to anything PLAAF are having. However that is not the case, isn't? How many years is it gonna take for the deal to be finished?

I believe by the time all the planes are delievered, China will have something equivalent to them.

First squadron will be inducted in 2015.

Anyway Super Su-30 will be superior than MRCA. I dont think you can match anyone of MRCA or Su.

 

[weg]

Before we get these planes delivered the planes themselves will get outdated I think

Military aircraft are not iPhones, they have a very long lifespan. The AV-8B harrier that the USMC still fly are early 1960's design. The F-16 entered service in 1978. The Euro-fighter entered service in 2003.

Whatever India buys they have forty years of service ahead of them