India Needs More Aircraft Carriers But Not At The Cost Of Key Strike Elements

busesaway

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It cannot be done but its a gud move if Navy takes the responsibility of southern India, Expand its Marine which is now a small battalion size force of Army ..

Have a strategy in place to cover all Arabian and Bay of Bengal via Air assets and position Anti-ship batteries & AAD along Indian coastal borders which have major ports and Naval assets ..

Minimize the burden of IAF and Army who are stationed there without any strategy regarding ocean / sea surveillance and response strategy in place ..

Besides, Army and Air-force so does Navy have almost no communication in any operation in these areas ..
This is exactly what I was thinking. The Navy is able to handle everything that South India can throw at it without the support of the Army and Air Force, and it would be far more efficient to merge the three. I doubt it would even need to expand its marines that much since there's no land border with any other country, and since the majority of internal conflicts can be dealt with by paramilitary or gendarmeries.

The job of coastguard can be performed by gendameries or the military, but if it's the latter, I don't doubt South India's ability to provide facilities in along the Bay of Bengal too.

I think a good platoon of destroyers and frigates with aircraft docking facilities would be enough to patrol the Arabian Sea (combat and search & rescue) and Bay of Bengal (anti-submarine), while the Navy can also use them in in the Malacca Straits and South China Sea.

The army and air force can then focus on Northern India where the wars are predominantly land based and where they have very little use for the Navy.
 

busesaway

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If China was able to make a breakthrough in the North then there would be nothing in the South to stop them. It is a layered defence strategy used by the Soviet Union. If they had everything on their Western border they would be speaking German today. There are also economic and political factors to place military bases as they generate revenue for cash strapped governments.
If China broke through North India, then I don't think South India is equipped enough anyway to counter their attack. North India is far more equipped and fortified than South India.
 

singhboy98

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If China broke through North India, then I don't think South India is equipped enough anyway to counter their attack. North India is far more equipped and fortified than South India.
I have not seen the South in detail. Can you tell me how the North is more fortified and safer than the South considering that there are many hostile borders in the North. Just curious.
 

busesaway

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I have not seen the South in detail. Can you tell me how the North is more fortified and safer than the South considering that there are many hostile borders in the North. Just curious.
I didn't say North India was more safe than South India. I said that it was more fortified and equipped than South India.

North India has two heavily militarized fences against the Middle East and Bangladesh (an exclave of the Middle East?). And the border between India and China is also heavily militarized.

The majority of India's active military force is based in North India too, including its nuclear weapons.
 

Armand2REP

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If China broke through North India, then I don't think South India is equipped enough anyway to counter their attack. North India is far more equipped and fortified than South India.
If they need reserves they can bring them from the South. If they route any section of the North they risk encirclement. By pulling back you extend Chinese supply lines while shortening your own.
 

bipin

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If China broke through North India, then I don't think South India is equipped enough anyway to counter their attack. North India is far more equipped and fortified than South India.
You are basing army formation on your ideas that may or may not work. That is just whishful thinking not planning.
A chain is only as strong as the weakest link. Army must have bases in different parts of country, should war happen in that region. Expecting enemy not to advance rapidly in unfortified territory cannot be a plan.

The majority of India's active military force is based in North India too, including its nuclear weapons.
That is just nonsense, are most of our nuclear weapons in North ? Dont we have mobile launchable ICBMs. How will we ever have credible land based second strike capability ?
 

Kunal Biswas

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You cannot merge them, As this is not possible ..

The marine foot soldiers are not meant to fight off internal issues rather its purpose to counter any invasion force that might land on mainland so does carrying out majority of task of amphibious operations from this areas, Also it important to note as per the idea that Navy hold majority of installation which also require manpower like Army does.

Coast guards work is safe guard coastal areas from pirates, illegal fishermen and terrorists infiltration, These responsibilities are not of navy so their is no change in their design regardless Navy presence in the area or not.

Navy is presently is doing that only, Its Mumbai, Kanwar base at west and Vizaq & Paradeep at east which also support Andaman island chain ..

Talking about Andaman island chain, Its supported solely by fleet supplies ..

This is exactly what I was thinking. The Navy is able to handle everything that South India can throw at it without the support of the Army and Air Force, and it would be far more efficient to merge the three. I doubt it would even need to expand its marines that much since there's no land border with any other country, and since the majority of internal conflicts can be dealt with by paramilitary or gendarmeries.

The job of coastguard can be performed by gendameries or the military, but if it's the latter, I don't doubt South India's ability to provide facilities in along the Bay of Bengal too.

I think a good platoon of destroyers and frigates with aircraft docking facilities would be enough to patrol the Arabian Sea (combat and search & rescue) and Bay of Bengal (anti-submarine), while the Navy can also use them in in the Malacca Straits and South China Sea.

The army and air force can then focus on Northern India where the wars are predominantly land based and where they have very little use for the Navy.
 

Spectre

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Most future wars in the naval domain will be short and intense. The carrier may seem obsolete and extremely vulnerable in such an engagement, however, this might not be completely true.The carrier, being a huge vessel is vulnerable to detection and attack by the enemy, however, employing it with tactfully may reduce its vulnerability and help the Indian Navy overcome the odds and win the fightOur current aircraft carrier (INS Vikramaditya) is a small STOBAR carrier with a modest air wing.

It is widely agreed that in order best utilise an asset, one has to take note of its negatives and offset them through effective employment. These disadvantages can stem from the shortcomings of , either from the carrier itself, it's embarked air wing, the supporting vessels of the CBG etc. The disadvantages of Vikramaditya include1.Low range and payload capacity of the mig 29k 2.Low availability of the mig 29k 3.Low on station time of awac helo 4.Insufficient ASW capacity5.Insufficient defensive anti air capability ( 6.The combined anti air weapons of the CBG aren't really sufficient for protecting the carrier and other ships against a massed missile attack) Carriers are effective diplomatic tools that coerce and influence hostile and friendly states during peace time however, during war however, the story is quite different. The carrier turns into a 'dartboard', a target of utmost importance. The enemy dedicates considerable assets for the purpose of the detection and destruction of the carrier. The Indian navy will need to keep the carrier away from the enemy force during the initial days after enemy contact to help the carrier survive (without expending weaponry in its own defence) and be usable for the strike role. During the initial days after enemy contact, initiative to engage the enemy should be taken by traditional surface and subsurface combatants . Once the enemy is encountered, huge number of missiles will be expended by both sides (for both, protection against enemy fire and offence against the enemy). Once most of the VLS magazines are expended, both sides will need to retreat(to reload, repair, consolidate etc.) while keeping track of each other using (MPA, drones etc). The STOBAR carrier is best employed at this time, when the enemy is at his weakest. The carrier will have to rush into theatre at high speed, launch a majority of its aircraft ( in order to muster a substantial salvo) and sprint away from the theatre due to the threat of lurking subs . A majority of the aircraft will have to be launched simultaneously in order for a strike to be effective) since this will compensate for the relatively small load carrying capacity of the Mig 29k. In order for the simultaneous launch to occur, a large number of Mig's will need to be kept in an state of readiness for an extended period of time (ie. The aircraft, although ready to fly, will have to be grounded on the ship in order to be available for take off at short notice without undergoing maintenance) thus increasing number of aircraft available for the strike simultaneously. This will reduce the number available for CAP, thus reducing CAP sortie rate. This further increasing the importance of remaining undetected .

The entry of the carrier into the threat environment will have to be time well, since a premature entry (when the enemy has not expended a majority of its VLS missiles) will probably lead to combat ineffectivenessA similar employment of the STOBAR carrier, especially the Vikramaditya can be compared to using a single shot shotgun. The gun will have to be reloaded (the air wing will have to be brought up to readiness and this will take up time due to the maintenance problem of the Mig 29k.) one the gun is loaded, it will pack a mean punchTo conclude, although engagements in future naval wars will depend upon surface to surface weaponry during the initial days , the carrier, when used effectively, may prove to be the decisive blow that knocks the enemy out. Although, the Indian Navy may be able to use a carrier effectively in its present condition , a substantial number of improvements will improve carrier employability (in any situation) drastically

I have listed the improvements that, in my opinion are definitely needed to improve out carrier operations in particular and naval capabilities in general.

Improvements; To the carrier:

1.Improved operability under EMCON
2.Independent torpedo defense
(RBU 6000?)
3.LPI datalinks
4.Rapid battle damage repair (enables flight deck ops in a damaged condition)
5.Improved range and endurance (ship and aviation fuel, spares etc) this will reduce need to visit port or be replenished by oilers that may be tailed by submarines.
6.High sprint and cruise speed (to get out of tough situations)


To the CBG and other combatants.

1.More VLS per ship (to win the initial missile exchange)
2.In theatre VLS reload capacity (with minimum support)
3.Organic ISR aircraft (ideally unmanned) 4.Stand off air delivered torpedo (ASROC?) 5.LPI datalinks6.Improved ability to work under EMCON (to remain undetected)


To the carrier air wing:

1.Full on-board aircraft maintenance
2.Larger stock of aircraft spares
3.Organic airborne refuelingaircraft
( although a fixed wing solution cannot be applied on a STOBAR carrier, a tilt rotor solution may be possible)
4. Fighter aircraft with longer range and higher payload capacity (again, this is a radical change) (rafale?, naval AMCA?)
5.Larger number of New, ASW helicopters 6.Organic ASW aircraft (fixed wing/tilt rotor) 7.Standoff PGM's ( these need to be light enough for the aircraft to carry multiple pieces without compromising on aircraft range. The PGM's must have sufficient stand off range on the cheap) I must admit that I'm not a fan of smaller carriers. The main reason is their inability to carry high endurance fixed wing ASW, AWAC, refuelling aircraft and the limitations imposed by the ski jump on payload capacity

Some of the improvements suggested above are not possible to a STOBAR carrier.

I also understand problem of opportunity cost, however, as @mendonsa has mentioned, during peace, the AC is an invaluable diplomatic tool which brings rich dividends in the form of access to natural resources. This will remain unchanged in the near future (Its effectiveness will be reduced with to the proliferation of coastal defence systems and SAMs).

Although aircraft carriers are important, they should not be procured at the cost of key strike elements. These strike elements are of utmost importance for the protection of and for the exploitation of the carrier. Every carrier needs a safe bubble in order to deploy its aircraft without being molested by the enemy, this protective bubble is maintained by the joint action of the surface and subsurface combatants that compose the CBG, in conjunction with the Cap from the AC. Thus, without these capital ships, the carrier, especially one with limited capabilities like the Vikramaditya is vulnerable.

Guys, this is my first comprehensive post on DFI, please do highlight any mistakes /misconceptions also, do express any alternate points of view.


Also, please do share any particulars about how the IN uses its carriers during peace and intends to use them in times of war.
 
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Marliii

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I am not a military expert, and I dare not argue with the experts whether the Indian aircraft carrier is advanced or not. But I have collected a set of old stories. After reading it, you will understand how absurd the myth of the invincibility of the Indian navy is!

Back in 2012, when this aircraft carrier was tested at sea for the first time, it exploded and caught fire. The accident caused 7 of her 8 boilers to catch fire!
In 2019, when she returned to the port, the engine compartment suddenly exploded, causing 1 death and 9 injuries.
In 2020, she was "attacked" by a drilling ship, causing 21 casualties. They were that she was killed by 200 tons of feces!
On the battlefield, is this powerful warship more deterrent to the enemy or to its own? "Vikrant" means "total defeat of those who dare to fight with me." Are you defeating an enemy or a friendly army? !
Vikrant isn't even in service idiot then how did it caught fire? It was vikramaditya that caught fire.stupids with no knowledge on any shit trying to be defence experttt
 

Marliii

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I am not a military expert, and I dare not argue with the experts whether the Indian aircraft carrier is advanced or not. But I have collected a set of old stories. After reading it, you will understand how absurd the myth of the invincibility of the Indian navy is!

Back in 2012, when this aircraft carrier was tested at sea for the first time, it exploded and caught fire. The accident caused 7 of her 8 boilers to catch fire!
In 2019, when she returned to the port, the engine compartment suddenly exploded, causing 1 death and 9 injuries.
In 2020, she was "attacked" by a drilling ship, causing 21 casualties. They were that she was killed by 200 tons of feces!
On the battlefield, is this powerful warship more deterrent to the enemy or to its own? "Vikrant" means "total defeat of those who dare to fight with me." Are you defeating an enemy or a friendly army? !
And when was any INs ship attacked by adrillibg ship huh? Stop posting nonsense here you turd.
 

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