India Chooses U.S.-Built Javelin Anti-Tank Missile

[civfanatic]

Javelin is a beast! But it's criminally expensive... Is India really capable of buying/maintaining the most sofisticated equipment worldwide (C17 is one example)? I don't know if it is, I really wonder!

India has never operated American equipment before, so it will take time before we are acquainted with them. But then again, our logistics guys are amazing. Over the years, they've handled British, French, Russian, Israeli, and indigenous equipment. Adding one more to the mix should be no sweat for them.

The reason why we are buying C-17s, P-8s, Javelins, etc. is because our traditional suppliers (i.e. Russia) do not have a suitable equivalent, and our domestic industry isn't developed enough to produce a high-quality alternative. With that being said, don't expect America to become India's major military supplier anytime soon. Once our domestic miltiary-industrial complex has taken off India will drastically reduce arms imports from all countries.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Yatharth Singh
You said that Kornet is not an anti Tank missile which is completely false. If you even dont know this then I am sorry for you.

when did i say kornet is not an anti tank missile man i am pitching kornet instead of buying javelin, are you ever reading what i am writing bro and one other thing at least get a good source to read from, wekipedia is edited by bunch of amateurs and i even gave you the proof what kornet did in Lebanon even the mighty merkava cannot stand against it do u think M1A1 can with stand it?

@Charlie,
Tell me any other man-portable missle with fire & forget tech with weight just under 14kg?
Also do tell me how long it takes for man-portable Milan and Kornet to set-up and fire?

@Yatharth Singh
Kornet is extremely deadly missle for any tank exist in the world today, to some extend its more deadly than Milan, though we fire them both via Indigenous flame launcher ( Not to be confused with flamethrower ), we use Milans and Kornet on 4x4s also Kornet is main AT-defense for BMP vehicles..

 

[Yatharth Singh]

when did i say kornet is not an anti tank missile man i am pitching kornet instead of buying javelin, are you ever reading what i am writing bro and one other thing at least get a good source to read from, wekipedia is edited by bunch of amateurs and i even gave you the proof what kornet did in Lebanon even the mighty merkava cannot stand against it do u think M1A1 can with stand it?

Here are your words.

this is what kornet dose to a tank see the end of the video you will see that after the kornet hit noting happen to the tank from the outside but from the inside it's completely destroyed , korent has long range and it was not build to blow up the tanks like javelin dose but it still destroys the tank

Dont blame me for commenting on wrong quotes.
And plz dont repeat this like a radio that javelin is too expensive. I know that it is expensive but my point was that we already have Kornet in our arsenal and now we want something that is man portable and also superior in its technology and that is why I supported Javelin. We dont want the Javelin in bulk so why to worry about its cost. At least we are getting something extra dependable on which our soldiers can rely on

Charlie if you ever felt that I am talking to you in an insulting language then I am sorry for that.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

KORNET-E ( In Use within Indian Army )

This semi-automatic laser beam riding missile is effective at ranges of 100 – 5,500 m' in daytime and up to 3,500 m' at night. The missile utilizes a tandem shaped charge anti-tank warhead or a thermobaric (fuel-air explosive) charge, for anti-personnel and anti-material blast and incendiary effect. The manufacturer claims penetration of 1,200mm of steel armor or 4.5 meters of concrete. The NATO designation of the Kornet is AT-14.

A firing unit consisting of launcher, thermal sight and a single missile container weigh 65 kg and can be installed and ready for action in 3 minutes, operated by 3 men. Most often, the missile will be deployed on vehicular platforms, a modular design for such launcher can utilize a lightweight launcher or an integrated turret designed for a hummer sized vehicle, integrated with the thermal sight and four ready to fire missiles and five more in stowage.

MILAN ANTI-TANK MISSILE ( In use within Indian Army )

The joint venture Euromissile was created in 1972 by Germany's Daimler-Benz Aerospace (DASA) and France's Aerospatiale SA. Since the mid-1970s, and to this day,Milan is a second generation anti-tank weapon, the result of a joint development between France and West Germany with British Milan launchers and missiles built under licence in the UK. The Milan consists of two main components, the launcher and the missile; these are simply clipped together to prepare the system for use. On firing, the operator has only to keep his aiming mark on the target and the Semi Automatic Command to Line of Sight (SACLOS) guidance system will do the rest. The later MILAN models have tandem HEAT warheads. This was done to keep pace with developments in Soviet Armour technology. Soviet tanks began to appear with explosive reactive armor, which could defeat earlier ATGMs. The smaller precursor HEAT warhead penetrates and detonates the ERA tiles, paving the way for the main HEAT warhead to penetrate the armor behind. The drawbacks are its short range, the exposure of the operator, and that it requires a skilled and well-trained operator.

Max Range 2,000m;
Min Range 400m;
Length 918mm;
Weight 6.73kg;
Diameter 125mm;
Wing Span 267mm;
Rate of Fire 3-4rpm;
Warhead Weight 2.70kg;
Diameter 115mm;
Explosive Content 1.79kg;
Firing Post
Weight 16.4kg;
Length 900mm;
Height 650mm;
Width 420mm;
Armour Penetration 352mm;
Time of Flight to Max Range 12.5secs;
Missile Speed 720kph;
Guidance Semi-Automatic command to line of sight by means of wire guidance link.

Current AT-14 is better than Milans in IA..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Javelin anti-tank missle..

Javelin is a portable anti-tank weapon, supplied by Raytheon / Lockheed Martin Javelin joint venture. It is shoulder-fired and can also be installed on tracked, wheeled or amphibious vehicles. The Javelin system saw operational service with the US Army and Marine Corps and Australian Special Forces during Operation Iraqi Freedom in March / April 2003 and is currently deployed in Afghanistan. More than 1,000 rounds have been fired. The CLU is also being used in surveillance operations. The stand-alone mode usage of CLU was proved to be effective in target detection and battle field reconnaissance when it was deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Total weight 22.3kg
Weight 11.8kg
Length 1.08m
Diameter 126mm
Range 2,500m
Seeker Imaging infra-red, CMT, 64 x 64 staring focal plane array, 8 - 12 micron
Guidance Lock-on before launch, automatic self-guidance

 

[Yatharth Singh]

If we just keep their cost and range aside then no doubt Javelin will outperform Kornet. But I think that there is no need of comparison because both weapons are of different types. One is Man portable where as the other one has to be loaded on an IFV,tank or any other combat vehicle. So range will surely differ and so is price because in case of of Javelin, first of all it is man portable and secondly its technology its awsome and unique in its category.

It makes no sense in comparing Kornet and Javelin and currently DRDO is working on this project only and they have a challenge to outperform Javelin through NAG Man potable ATGM.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If we just keep their cost and range aside then no doubt Javelin will outperform Kornet. But I think that there is no need of comparison because both weapons are of different types. One is Man portable where as the other one has to be loaded on an IFV,tank or any other combat vehicle. So range will surely differ and so is price because in case of of Javelin, first of all it is man portable and secondly its technology its awsome and unique in its category.

It makes no sense in comparing Kornet and Javelin and currently DRDO is working on this project only and they have a challenge to outperform Javelin through NAG Man potable ATGM.

Kornet is also as man-portable ATGM, but its not as light also fire-forget like javelin, that's the reason why we like javelin, though we will be using AT-14 in AT-role, and hopefully NAG may provide better solution..

Still in Infantry our Anti-tank hunting teams carry heavy CARL84mm, i hope to see them with Javelin, Man-portable NAG even RPG-29..

 

[charlie]

@Kunal Biswas
hi there
well by the way i know it take a little time to for kornet to set up and launch but there are always option available tell me what do think of Eryx missile
it's less then 14 kg and it's shoulder fired just as javelin and it's damn cheaper then javelin, well i am not telling that it's the only available missile in the market there are many more how about AT4 it's a bit light but still it dose the job and Type 01 LMAT , well but the jap will never sell the missile to us that other thing but my personal favourte is MBT-LAW or called the NLAW it's 6 times cheaper then Javelin and it quiet light easy for special forces to carry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H1u7iWVfdY&feature=related (Eryx) cost $5000
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3xsMqHu56g&feature=related(AT 4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_flU3UIIRvc( Type 01 LMAT)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-MXqI7bYkc&feature=related(MBT-LAW),
javelin cost $80,000 + FMS and ever damn launcher costs around $ 1,25,000

 

[charlie]

@Yatharth Singh
ohh Yatharth we are cool bro i dont find u insulting
and by the way "korent has long range and it was not build to blow up the tanks like javelin dose but it still destroys the tank" what do u make up of this thing i dont get it
i am saying here that kornet doesn't destroy tank with the lethality like javelin dose but it dose destroy tank bro it a simple thing to understand here , i am repeating it again it is kind of like RPG hits the tanks and dosent blows up the tanks but destroys the tanks and that why i posted the video showing u how it works but u still dont get it look at the AT4 video and u will see that the tank is not blow up but there is a small hole in the tank and the tank is completely destroyed from the inside

 

[charlie]

@Kunal Biswas

well Milan was a crap now that was a pretty husky deal i think there was too much bribing in that deal again a lot's of gift were offered there and well the great Bharat dynamics was also playing the role here

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Kunal Biswas
hi there
well by the way i know it take a little time to for kornet to set up and launch but there are always option available tell me what do think of Eryx missile
it's less then 14 kg and it's shoulder fired just as javelin and it's damn cheaper then javelin, well i am not telling that it's the only available missile in the market there are many more how about AT4 it's a bit light but still it dose the job and Type 01 LMAT , well but the jap will never sell the missile to us that other thing but my personal favourte is MBT-LAW or called the NLAW it's 6 times cheaper then Javelin and it quiet light easy for special forces to carry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H1u7iWVfdY&feature=related (Eryx) cost $5000
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3xsMqHu56g&feature=related(AT 4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_flU3UIIRvc( Type 01 LMAT)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-MXqI7bYkc&feature=related(MBT-LAW),
javelin cost $80,000 + FMS and ever damn launcher costs around $ 1,25,000

Still my question is unanswered..

I asked you " Give me any ATGM which is man portable weight under 14kg and have fire and forget tech, also the time to setup and fire"....

You give me Eryx missile!
here are the details:

Crew:Two man crew, One fire and operate other is a assistance..

Guidance : Wire Guided

Weight of the system:
Firing Post= 4.5kg
Tripod= 5kg
Thermal Imager= 3.5kg
Missile Tube in Container= 13kg

Total= 26kg

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/eryx/
http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/ref/scripts/siteFO_contenu.php?lang=EN&noeu_id=100&page_id=127


Range: 50-600m

So, what was your point?
The ATGM Eryx is not even comparable to soviet AT-3...
The answer you give me is not the answer i expected..

i am saying here that kornet doesn't destroy tank with the lethality like javelin dose but it dose destroy tank bro it a simple thing to understand here , i am repeating it again it is kind of like RPG hits the tanks and dosent blows up the tanks but destroys the tanks and that why i posted the video showing u how it works but u still dont get it look at the AT5 video and u will see that the tank is not blow up but there is a small hole in the tank and the tank is completely destroyed from the inside

@Charlie
2 questions:

1. Why tanks blow up?
2. what makes the tanks destroyed from inside?

well Milan was a crap now that was a pretty husky deal i think there was too much bribing in that deal again a lot's of gift were offered there and well the great Bharat dynamics was also playing the role here

We use Milan1 & 2 in plenty since late 90s no can go high as high plus 30,000 in IA, MILAN er or 3 whatever malfunctioned, NAG is way better and i hope to see it in service..

 

[Yatharth Singh]

@Yatharth Singh
ohh Yatharth we are cool bro i dont find u insulting
and by the way "korent has long range and it was not build to blow up the tanks like javelin dose but it still destroys the tank" what do u make up of this thing i dont get it
i am saying here that kornet doesn't destroy tank with the lethality like javelin dose but it dose destroy tank bro it a simple thing to understand here , i am repeating it again it is kind of like RPG hits the tanks and dosent blows up the tanks but destroys the tanks and that why i posted the video showing u how it works but u still dont get it look at the AT4 video and u will see that the tank is not blow up but there is a small hole in the tank and the tank is completely destroyed from the inside

Again, when did I said that Kornet cannot disable a tank. And again you are taking the names of Javekin and Kornet together which makes no sense. Please try to understand that they both belong to different categories. Their work is same but the way of working is different.

You gave an example of Eryx which approx weighs 16kg or above. With this weight a soldier will have so much difficulty to lock a target and fire accurately from his shoulder also maintaining the stealth.
Accept this fact that currently Javelin is very good in its category than other ATGM and our choice for Javelin is not bad.

I repeat that we dont want Javelin in bulk so there is no need to worry about its price.

 

[charlie]

@Kunal Biswas
Eryx missile was just one example that i gave you here is
MBT-LAW
weight - 11.6kg
with fire and forget tech
and it easy to set up and fire
and can be used in confined space
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mbt_law/
http://www.saabgroup.com/en/Land/We...xt-Generation-Light-Antitank-Weapon/Features/
and by the way blow up in sense the tank get shattered into pieces like u can see the javelin in this video on the top attack mode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VdRnY-TUb4&feature=related
and by the tanks get destroyed from the inside i meant that the projectile leaves a shaped charged explosive as it's show in this peazerfuast video which just makes a small hole from the outside but still is lethal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU8yhLtf2Mw&feature=related

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Kunal Biswas
Eryx missile was just one example that i gave you here is
MBT-LAW
weight - 11.6kg
with fire and forget tech
and it easy to set up and fire
and can be used in confined space
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mbt_law/
http://www.saabgroup.com/en/Land/We...xt-Generation-Light-Antitank-Weapon/Features/


and by the way blow up in sense the tank get shattered into pieces like u can see the javelin in this video on the top attack mode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VdRnY-TUb4&feature=related


and by the tanks get destroyed from the inside i meant that the projectile leaves a shaped charged explosive as it's show in this peazerfuast video which just makes a small hole from the outside but still is lethal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU8yhLtf2Mw&feature=related

Yes, MBT-LAW is close to javelin but not 100% comparable coz:

1. Range
2. Guidance is PLOS unlike in Jav missle have an IR tracker to detect even when target move backwards. ( PLOS will fail when tank goes for rotation or backward or change direction as evasive maneuvers )
3. HE warheads ( The missile has a double vertically striking shaped charge High-Explosive (HE) warhead.)

Still better answer that previous one, but still you haven't provide any Fire-forget missle which can take on Javelin as i asked..

Correct answer, regarding shape-charge behavior, but again Charlie why tank blew up ( Hint: Russian-tanks )!!


Watch this vid taken in INDIA, the rusty tank is a vijaynanda 50mm top Armour, Do you see it shattered?
The T-72 Vid, is a Big BS! ( Watch at 29sec, you will find a flame under the tank before the missle impact) it was a setup for propaganda purpose..
Javelin will leave similar mark as it is tandem warhead same as Kornet as they are both tandem heat shots..

 

[charlie]

i guess the main aim of topic is what india should buy so why you keeping javelin as a standard
and for the range 600m is a good range for special forces i guess
and the weight is less then javelin
and PLOS is a good system how much u think a tank gonna maneuver in 2.35 sec
and the explosive used in MBT-Law can destroy any modern tanks so there is no point of discuss the HE warheads
and still i can give u better ATGM that is Type 01 LMAT which has better warhead and a range then that of javelin but now u will say the weight is increased to 17 or 18 kg, well the problem is u are taking javelin as a standard instead of looking which one suits better to IA as well as in good number

 

[Kunal Biswas]

i guess the main aim of topic is what india should buy so why you keeping javelin as a standard

Question was never abt standard but why to have Javelin when AT-14 in service..

and for the range 600m is a good range for special forces i guess

Its a obvious thing more the range better is the survivability, In SF or even in regular Army, Snipers & AT-crew position themselves as far as they can..

and PLOS is a good system how much u think a tank gonna maneuver in 2.35 sec

MBT-LAW is subsonic and its 40m/s initial and certainly not 280-300m/s, A good tank crew have enough time to take evasive maneuvers..

and the explosive used in MBT-Law can destroy any modern tanks so there is no point of discuss the HE warheads

Like Javelin or AT-14, No!
HEAT is specifically deigned to penetrate Armors on impact, where HE works mainly on heat,vacuum, and shock-wave, a T-tank covered with ERA at top can easily survive HE blast..

and still i can give u better ATGM that is Type 01 LMAT which has better warhead and a range then that of javelin but now u will say the weight is increased to 17 or 18 kg,

JAP-LMAT is not for sale, though it is close and almost same still less in range by 500m, Warhead is same HEAT-TANDEM..

well the problem is u are taking javelin as a standard instead of looking which one suits better to IA as well as in good number

Where i said it should be standard, I repeatedly said in good no with other AT in hands, As For Infantry Tank-Hunting squads it is the best ATGM..

 

[charlie]

Its a obvious thing more the range better is the survivability, In SF or even in regular Army, Snipers & AT-crew position themselves as far as they can..
let's talk about real scenario in today's urban warfare SE will try to hit the tank taking cover of building and urban structure to hit the tank so how much range is required

and PLOS is a good system how much u think a tank gonna maneuver in 2.35 sec
by that i mean the time taken to reach a target of 600m not the muzzle velocity
Time of Flight to 600mUnder 2.5 sec

i bet you by the way have u ever got a chance to get in a tank because there is a 95% chance that tank crew will not know until their tank got hit by an ATGM unless tank commanders were outside their hatches but nobody dares to even peak out when they are in warzone

Like Javelin or AT-14, No!
HEAT is specifically deigned to penetrate Armors on impact, where HE works mainly on heat,vacuum, and shock-wave, a T-tank covered with ERA at top can easily survive HE blast.

well at-lest you should not think that the saab guys who made the MBT-Law are not fools everyone knows that the modern tank is cover with ERA so ever one will make a weapon keeping that in mind and here are the specification i took from the website where it clearly written that it can penetrate the armour with ERA

Armour penetration more than MBT roof with explosive reactive armour (ERA)
Confined space capability Yes
Preparation time Approx. 5 seconds

 

[Kunal Biswas]

let's talk about real scenario in today's urban warfare SE will try to hit the tank taking cover of building and urban structure to hit the tank so how much range is required

For that kind of situation we a Carl84mm ( close range 10-200m ) Most tanks we faced in Punjab and rajasthan ( Iraqi Scenario ) where Javelin works better as its range is 2500m..

Time of Flight to 600mUnder 2.5 sec

Link Pls..

well at-lest you should not think that the saab guys who made the MBT-Law are not fools everyone knows that the modern tank is cover with ERA so ever one will make a weapon keeping that in mind and here are the specification i took from the website where it clearly written that it can penetrate the armour with ERA

If so good, but i never heard that HE can take out something like T-72 in ERA, We have Milan-1 which use HE warhead and a good ATGM against the mass of PA`s T-59&69 MBTs..

 

[charlie]

For that kind of situation we a Carl84mm ( close range 10-200m ) Most tanks we faced in Punjab and rajasthan ( Iraqi Scenario ) where Javelin works better as its range is 2500m..

i am talking about the scenario where the SE are deployed behind the enemy lines for Punjab and and rajasthan scenario we have post's at border and ample of time to set up kornet at up the post and at rajastan and punjab our intelligence is strong not like the one in kashmir that we have to empty the post in winters so we would know about the situation and get enough time to react to it

Link Pls..

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mbt_law/

If so good, but i never heard that HE can take out something like T-72 in ERA, We have Milan-1 which use HE warhead and a good ATGM against the mass of PA`s T-59&69 MBTs..
well ERA in today tanks is kind of a mandatory thing don't you think no tanks will go in battle field without it so ever ATGM designers will keep that in mind if he wants to produce a good ATGM other wise what's the use of ATGM which cannot defeat a tank

 

[Kunal Biswas]

i am talking about the scenario where the SE are deployed behind the enemy lines for Punjab and and rajasthan scenario we have post's at border and ample of time to set up kornet at up the post and at rajastan and punjab our intelligence is strong not like the one in kashmir that we have to empty the post in winters so we would know about the situation and get enough time to react to it

U know little, see we have Special Para doing is laying ambush behind enemy-lines in Punjab or Rajashtan in flat desert or semi-desert enviorment, Kornet is usally based on defensive zone on fixed posts, regarding Kashmir it was nott the fault of Intel i can go on but it will be a offtopic..

Link Pls..

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mbt_law/

Hard to believe, 300m/s ??

well ERA in today tanks is kind of a mandatory thing don't you think no tanks will go in battle field without it so ever ATGM designers will keep that in mind if he wants to produce a good ATGM other wise what's the use of ATGM which cannot defeat a tank

Thats the reason tandem HEAT was introduce in WW2, HE characteristics are different..