India and USA to protect Vietnam from China

[asianobserve]

It seems you keep pumping Vietnam. Compare to India, is Vietnam more capable to deal with China?

On a limited border/territorial skirmish? I wouldn't underestimate the diminutive superpower buster...

 

[Tshering22]

It seems you keep pumping Vietnam. Compare to India, is Vietnam more capable to deal with China?

They have till now proven what they can do. More or less capable is not the point.. the point is their political leadership has the courage to stand tall and fight in the face of threat. OTOH our problem is our anti-national, weak, corrupt and treacherous politicians. Until they are overthrown and replaced, we cannot do anything to even SL. However once the ideal man (Modi) comes to power, things would be very different.

Vietnamese are not big power; but they have shown that size doesn't matter before.

 

[Virendra]

CCP... they always have this habit of assuming too much. Tsk Tsk... Vietnamese held out on their own when we didn't do anything long back. We simply need to ensure their weapons supply doesn't run dry. The rest, they are more than capable of doing. Last time they themselves were divided and weak and still managed to punt the Dragon out. Now they are a stronger country with no internal issues. Figure that out.

More than just fancy equipment and monstrous factories, it take WILL to fight and win. And Vietnamese have shown that in plenty.

I agree with everything except that they don't have any internal issues. Their economy isn't in the best of the health to take on China (keeping in mind the fact that they single handedly faced China earlier). Why else do you think they would start pondering over alliances with India or US. They are looking at a future where the tussle on South China sea resources would lead to circumstances. And hence these sentiments of new found friendships.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[The Messiah]

CCP... they always have this habit of assuming too much. Tsk Tsk... Vietnamese held out on their own when we didn't do anything long back. We simply need to ensure their weapons supply doesn't run dry. The rest, they are more than capable of doing. Last time they themselves were divided and weak and still managed to punt the Dragon out. Now they are a stronger country with no internal issues. Figure that out.

More than just fancy equipment and monstrous factories, it take WILL to fight and win. And Vietnamese have shown that in plenty.

Even if we supply modern anti-aircraft and anti-tank weapons they'll stop the chinese in there tracks.

If we gave them tanks,brahmos,ships, planes then the chinese wont enter into a war in the first place.

 

[civfanatic]

Vietnamese have been toppling superpowers like its their god-given duty to do so.

Think of how many tens of thousands of French, Japanese, American, and Chinese troops have already been killed trying to conquer Vietnam from 1940-1980. The PRC are fools if they try it again; it will amount to nothing more than throwing away lives.

 

[Daredevil]

I think it is unfair to use Vietnam as a proxy of India as some posters have suggested here. Vietnam is not a rogue country like Pakistan which is involved in state-supported terrorism against India. India should make an ally out of Vietnam due to our common enemy China. We need to support Vietnam both morally, materially and diplomatically on all forums in its fight against false Chinese claims on property that belongs to Vietnam. The best thing India can do it to supply with force multipliers like Brahmos, Arjun etc which have definite superiority over Chinese counterparts.

 

[kickok1975]

Did vietnam beat china so badly in the sino-vietnamese war of 1979?

They didn't. The war was a stalemate and both sides claimed victory. And, in my opinion, the Chinese accomplished the greater of its regional goals in the conflict.

You might point to greater Chinese casualties. However, Chinese military doctrine in the 20th century was not concerned with high casualty rates. There was, among Chinese military strategists, that you would run out of ammo before they would run out of troops. If you take the worst figures, and those figures are from Vietnam, as truth, the Chinese lost only 20,000 killed in the war. This is far from a high death rate for the Chinese military.

China told Russia and the United States before the war started that it would be a limited border incursion of Vietnam, that their objective was not to conquer the country. The reasons behind the invasion were (1) to attempt to force the Vietnamese out of Cambodia, which they had invaded and disposed Chinese ally Pol Pot (2) to demonstrate to Asian nations that Russian promises of aid against China were no more than paper assurances and (3) to remind Vietnam about who was the dominant force in Asia. And, while their invasion did not cause the Vietnamese to withdraw from Cambodia, the Chinese army occupied areas of Vietnam long enough to show that the Soviet Union was powerless to intervene in the situation. Further, China delivered a message to Vietnam that it would press its interests by military force if that was needed. Once the Chinese made their point, they retreated back across the border.

Now, in fairness to the Soviets, there really wasn't anything they could do to stop China's invasion short of going to war with China. The Soviets did not have the fleet nor the strategic bombers to make a strong showing against the Chinese in Vietnamese waters or over North Vietnam. And Soviet leaders may have bluffed a good game, but they weren't stupid. They weren't going to go to war with China over what they knew was a limited offensive. And so they sat on the sideline as the Chinese pummeled their most recent ally. And, this is exactly what the Chinese desired to show by their offensive.

I thought then, and continue to think today, that the Chinese were surprised at the level of Vietnamese resistance. And, I believe, as others have stated, that the offensive showed Chinese political and military leaders some shortcomings of their military plans, many of which have been overcome since the war. However, about the only way that the Chinese were going to Hanoi was if the Vietnamese army facing them fell apart. China didn't expect this to happen, and it didn't

And, at the end of 80's. Vietnam was forced to withdraw from Combodia under the pressure of Soviet as the pre-condition of Sino-Soviet relationship improvement.

 

[no smoking]

Vietnamese have been toppling superpowers like its their god-given duty to do so.

Think of how many tens of thousands of French, Japanese, American, and Chinese troops have already been killed trying to conquer Vietnam from 1940-1980. The PRC are fools if they try it again; it will amount to nothing more than throwing away lives.

You talk as if vietnamese did not pay their prices during these period. In 4 weeks Sino-vietname war 1979 alone, they claimed 150,000 losses themselves, not mention those millions lost in the war against French and US. With so many losses of young men, today, women have to get married outside their border as they cannot find eough grooms!

Yes, if China fight Vietnam, they would get nothing. What india would get whey you trying to send soldiers to fight China far away from your own country except throwing lives.

 

[civfanatic]

You talk as if vietnamese did not pay their prices during these period. In 4 weeks Sino-vietname war 1979 alone, they claimed 150,000 losses themselves, not mention those millions lost in the war against French and US. With so many losses of young men, today, women have to get married outside their border as they cannot find eough grooms!

Chinese estimates of Vietnamese losses are 100,000 and Western estimates are 30,000. I don't know where you got the 150,000 figure from.

It should also be noted that the Vietnamese forces stationed along the Chinese border were militia and not regular forces. Vietnamese regular units were deployed in Cambodia.

Yes, if China fight Vietnam, they would get nothing. What india would get whey you trying to send soldiers to fight China far away from your own country except throwing lives.

You talk as if I support sending Indian troops to Vietnam.

I am a strict non-interventionist when it comes to events outside of South Asia.

 

[asianobserve]

Actually, there may be no need for India to send its Gurkhas to Vietnam. The Vietnamese themselves can easily take on and hold on against any skirmish with China, short of a full pledged Chinese invasion. But in the current geopolitical context the Chinese would be damned to lunch a full on invasion of Vietnam.

 

[tony4562]

I see brahmos mentioned lots of times as if this were a be-all-end-all weapon. Now leave capabilities of this weapon and politics aside, this weapon can never be exported because that would hamper Russia from selling her own version of Brahmos, the original P-800 Yakhont. That's why we are seeing Yakhont being exported to Indonesia and Syria, but not Brahmos. Brahmos is basically a russian weapon customized for India with India footing the bill, there is no chance in hell that this weapon will ever see daylight outside India.

No doubt, if Vietnam really wants, they may very well get Yakhont or for that matter any weapon Russia has sold to India. Wiki already lists Vietnam as an operator of P-800, although I think that is incorrect. But Vietnam is not crazy or paranoid as a certain big nation on the sub-continent, the top agenda for the vietnamese government these days is economy not war. If there is one thing from India the vietnamese really want, is money.

 

[Daredevil]

I see brahmos mentioned lots of times as if this were a be-all-end-all weapon. Now leave capabilities of this weapon and politics aside, this weapon can never be exported because that would hamper Russia from selling her own version of Brahmos, the original P-800 Yakhont. That's why we are seeing Yakhont being exported to Indonesia and Syria, but not Brahmos. Brahmos is basically a russian weapon customized for India with India footing the bill, there is no chance in hell that this weapon will ever see daylight outside India.

No doubt, if Vietnam really wants, they may very well get Yakhont or for that matter any weapon Russia has sold to India. Wiki already lists Vietnam as an operator of P-800, although I think that is incorrect. But Vietnam is not crazy or paranoid as a certain big nation on the sub-continent, the top agenda for the vietnamese government these days is economy not war. If there is one thing from India the vietnamese really want, is money.

Shows your ignorance. If you don't know about Brahmos, all you need to do is, ask. There is a thread on Brahmos missile. Go through it and know what it can do. It is better and different than Yakhont for the starters.

http://defenceforumindia.com/strategic-forces/13-brahmos-news-discussions.html

If you need to further discuss Brahmos take it up in Brahmos in that thread, not here.

 

[tony4562]

Shows your ignorance. If you don't know about Brahmos, all you need to do is, ask. There is a thread on Brahmos missile. Go through it and know what it can do. It is better and different than Yakhont for the starters.

http://defenceforumindia.com/strategic-forces/13-brahmos-news-discussions.html

If you need to further discuss Brahmos take it up in Brahmos in that thread, not here.

It may be the best weapon since the invention of bread and butter (ever wonder why the russian themselves never bother to buy any?), still India can not export it because that would interfere with sales of P-800. Brahmos is a joint venture much like Fc-1 and K-8, joint venture only in name because one party (rightfully so) controls everything. Hundreds of K-8 have been exported to like a dozen countries, but noen through pakistan. The same goes for Brahmos. Brahmos and P-800 are practically the same thing (only folks who refuse to believe this are indians, who else?), and it will be exported en masse, just India will never see a penny from it.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Time to Back Vietnam Against China

Time to Back Vietnam Against China « Blogs For Victory

Vietnam has called on the US and other nations to help resolve the escalating territorial disputes in the resource-rich South China Sea, in a move likely to anger Beijing, which opposes what it sees as outside interference.

Tensions between China and Vietnam continued to rise over the weekend, ahead of live-fire drills planned by Vietnam's navy on Monday on an islet around 20 miles from the coast of central Vietnam, which Hanoi described as "routine""¦

At issue is various territorial and economic claims in the South China Sea. Ultimately, given our overwhelming naval superiority, we should be the arbiter of who gets to use what – and we should take care to ensure that the United States profits greatly off whatever resolution is finally made (but what of the claims of others? All are ultimately nonsense"¦the claims are to things in the middle of the ocean"¦sea power, alone, can ultimately determine who gets what"¦if you wish to challenge America, then start building a blue water navy and get back to us in 30 years). Additionally, while the United States should have as little to do with tyrannical regimes, the fact that the Vietnamese tyranny is squaring off against the Chinese tyranny means that the decision becomes one of "what is best for us?". In this case, curbing China's impertinent pretensions is fully in accordance with the best American policy"¦and thus backing Vietnam becomes the best thing to do.

So, back Vietnam – make it a major American foreign policy effort. Whenever China's claims conflict with Vietnam's, we should assert the Vietnamese claim. Get the Dragon to back down and secure the good will of Vietnam – thus ensuring that if China decides to try conclusions with us, a large number of Chinese troops will have to be tied down on the Vietnamese border. China's military continually identifies the United States as the prime enemy and various factions in China are pushing for a confrontation"¦now is the time to start building an anti-Chinese coalition. This dispute between Vietnam and China offers us an excellent opportunity – we should seize it with both hands.

 

[Tshering22]

It may be the best weapon since the invention of bread and butter (ever wonder why the russian themselves never bother to buy any?)

Because they cannot just throw away their missiles that are still having shelf-life and are still in good use. Why would they want to buy when their inventory is already full with missiles who's expiry date is quite far away? Are you really that naive or is it just because you're too blind to see anything in positive light with a spark of common sense.

still India can not export it because that would interfere with sales of P-800.Brahmos is a joint venture much like Fc-1 and K-8, joint venture only in name because one party (rightfully so) controls everything.Hundreds of K-8 have been exported to like a dozen countries, but noen through pakistan. The same goes for Brahmos. Brahmos and P-800 are practically the same thing (only folks who refuse to believe this are indians, who else?), and it will be exported en masse, just India will never see a penny from it.

Not really. BrahMos' guidance systems and other electronic systems are Indian-made. The propulsion and external design is Russian. So technically it has critical Indian components. And is FAR FAR different from what you and Pakistanis have done. The latter have only painted the aircraft.

P-800 is an older system that is slower and less accurate than the latest BrahMos that we have to export. You seriously need to stop comparing us to the Pakistanis just because you've managed to become a notch higher. Now by logic of tech updates, what would a client prefer? A slower and less accurate P-800 or a deadly accurate and much faster BrahMos Block III?

Get down off your high horse and stop imagining yourself to be someone of a different league. You're nowhere close.

 

[natarajan]

first of all protect tn fishermen from srilankan navy (tiny nation),lets see how much guts GOI has to do this,many of us say it is strategic decision,still GOI doest not succeed in preventing chinese and pakistan into srilanka not ensure safety tamilians,the genocide committed in sri Lanka can't be ignored,it almost like nazi's incident.
Goi is doing blunders rather than strategic move,if LTTE would have been alive,chinese can never venture into srilanka and also by donating kathchatheevu ,and chinese can now monitor tn from there.Even if palestinians people are subjected this much of genocide ,i would be first fellow to object irrespective of religion as killing of people in lakhs and mass murder ,rape,torture cannot tolerated for strategic move


Lets protect ourselves in land and in indian ocean ,then think of spreading to other places

 

[tarunraju]

I don't think so. Drilling doesn't mean alliance. Again, Vietnam is not stupid to fight for US, or even India. China remained a neighbour to Vietam for 3 thousand years. It is most likely so for another 1,000 years. By then, where is US, United states of Mexico?

It's not about fighting for US or India. Vietnam is fighting for itself, and is actively seeking US, Indian support. China claims Vietnam's oil reserves. In the worst case scenario there will be war over oil. Vietnam needs friends. Friendship with China means giving up oil.

You're right. Country is made by people. Then what's matter to people most in today's world, war or peace?

The idea of peace in today's world is that in which one nation isn't even passively aggressive towards the other. It doesn't just mean "no war".

Right now, China is passively aggressive with Vietnam over disputed islands and oil reserves. There is no real peace between China and Vietnam as of now.

 

[roma]

first of all protect tn fishermen from srilankan navy (tiny nation),lets see how much guts GOI has to do this,many of us say it is strategic decision,still GOI doest not succeed in preventing chinese and pakistan into srilanka not ensure safety tamilians,the genocide committed in sri Lanka can't be ignored,it almost like nazi's incident.
Goi is doing blunders rather than strategic move,if LTTE would have been alive,chinese can never venture into srilanka and also by donating kathchatheevu ,and chinese can now monitor tn from there.Even if palestinians people are subjected this much of genocide ,i would be first fellow to object irrespective of religion as killing of people in lakhs and mass murder ,rape,torture cannot tolerated for strategic move


Lets protect ourselves in land and in indian ocean ,then think of spreading to other places

Hello Bro - long time ! ...... look on the bright side - i think there's a high probability that in return for india stationing, loaning equipment and training personnel to the viets, the indian side will learn toughness FROM them ! so it's a good exchange and something substantial to gain as well .

 

[The Messiah]

There women are enough for PLA

 

[asianobserve]

There women are enough for PLA

Ah, the ever romantic revolutionary... Well to tell you the bad news, even those slipper-wearing, cool-looking, hot revolutionaries will be swept aside by China's PLA if Vietnam is left alone to stand against China.

India needs to ramp up its assistance to Vietnam.