India all set to procure Predator drone from US after MTCR membership

hit&run

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Investing in Internal security is more important than buying sophisticated technology to hit terrorists.

Using drones to hit Pakistan based terror camps will have same impediments like we have today, e.g escalation and retaliation from Pakistani side.

I don't know if GOI is calculating risks and going to gradually raise the temperature and test Pakistani response, but as of today it looks ostentatious buying drones as far as hitting terrorists in India is concern.
 

Zebra

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^^
Very cost effective CAS platform.....!
 

Screambowl

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Investing in Internal security is more important than buying sophisticated technology to hit terrorists.

Using drones to hit Pakistan based terror camps will have same impediments like we have today, e.g escalation and retaliation from Pakistani side.

I don't know if GOI is calculating risks and going to gradually raise the temperature and test Pakistani response, but as of today it looks ostentatious buying drones as far as hitting terrorists in India is concern.
The strategy is basically to pull Pakistan into arms race and bank corrupt them. This is how India is isolating in all the front.

Now even if Yankies do not sell Pakis the f-16, they are going to sell India the drones. This is how their business is captured in Indian market.

And Russians need money for every deal, which Pakis do not have.

Chinese, well would take little more effort.

How ever, drones would not just be used against Pakis but also for coastal surveillance and keeping watch on other border areas.

Drone is something which has demoralised the terrorism of any kind be it in Afghanistan, Syria, or Iraq. All fear them.
 

hit&run

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The strategy is basically to pull Pakistan into arms race and bank corrupt them.
How India buying drones will bankrupt Pakistan ? If you mean arms race between both then yes India can out buy them any day. But then there are many variables and balancing equations that Pakistan has already invested to sustain the parity. Your inference of arms race in this particular topic looks like a mismatch.

This is how India is isolating in all the front.
Doesn't make any sense to me. How buying drones has anything to do with Isolating Pakistan.

Now even if Yankies do not sell Pakis the f-16, they are going to sell India the drones. This is how their business is captured in Indian market.
Still doesn't make any sense to me. If you mean India is compensating loss of F-16 business to Pakistan by selling drones to India then it fails the very doctrine/requirement that is guiding Indian army or air force to procure these platforms.

And Russians need money for every deal, which Pakis do not have
.

I do not think my post raised any such issue that warranted mention of Russia. Furthermore Russians MIC is not that advance or offering armed drones to anyone. So the question Pakistanis would look towards Russia for drones is moot.

Chinese, well would take little more effort.
?????

However, drones would not just be used against Pakis but also for coastal surveillance and keeping watch on other border areas.
Explain 'Used against Pakistan'.

If you mean carrying strikes then 'No' drones will not be used against Pakistan, I see no possible use of these ostentatious machines working close to IB or LOC when Pakistanis have more than adequate Air defense systems in place.

Surveillance Yes.

Drone is something which has demoralised the terrorism of any kind be it in Afghanistan, Syria, or Iraq. All fear them.
Can you be more specific about all your claims and assertions.

You are superimposing tactics and doctrines that have been in place of in those regions upon doctrines Indian army and Air Force is mandated to follow. Or you can show me any such declared policy vis a vis use of these drones that unambiguously states so.
 

sorcerer

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Chinese, well would take little more effort.
.
china will only sell stuffs which will only make sense for chinese investment interests in the region + sales pitch as demonstrators(which unfortunately left tarmac when Tejas Arrived because of performance anxiety :D)
 

Chinmoy

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Investing in Internal security is more important than buying sophisticated technology to hit terrorists.

Using drones to hit Pakistan based terror camps will have same impediments like we have today, e.g escalation and retaliation from Pakistani side.

I don't know if GOI is calculating risks and going to gradually raise the temperature and test Pakistani response, but as of today it looks ostentatious buying drones as far as hitting terrorists in India is concern.
Actually you are right in your concern regarding internal security. But IMO its a clever acquisition decision on part of GoI. How???...........


India right now is operating indigenous and Israeli drones for internal and border surveillance. But what India is seeking right now is UCAV, i.e. combat UAV. We have to keep in mind that right now India is investing domestically on weaponised Rustom. Now the question arise that why we need weaponised Rustom if we are not planning to attack it anywhere internally and externally.

The biggest drawback of Rustom and Heron which we are operating right now is their endurance period. We could have gone for simple surveillance drone as of now, but we should also keep in mind that we are investing heavily on such simple domestic surveillance drones. So if we go for another multi million dollar surveillance drone, then .......................

Moreover take a look at what is our armed force casualty rate at fighting insurgencies in thick forested border area. Ofcource we can't use any heavy weapon in civilian areas, but the presence of an UCAV in these forested areas is a force multiplier for our ground troop.

So I think its a good decision on our part to invest on these UCAV for our first line of internal security. Whatever @Screambowl had said would be added advantage, but I dont look at it so deep enough. :)
 

sorcerer

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I don't know if GOI is calculating risks and going to gradually raise the temperature and test Pakistani response, but as of today it looks ostentatious buying drones as far as hitting terrorists in India is concern.
For a loooooong time to come we wont see any sophisticated machinery like UCAVS being used against home grown terrorists(ISI moles) in India.So far...the established mechanism is sufficient to handle terrorist threats but only with a better coordination and less bitching between agencies named and unnamed.

IMO Its gonna be the usual intel gathering and ground operations..but drones in this regard will act merely as tool for intel gathering which the capability we have now.

There was random talks about India using surgical strikes to get terror training camps in PoK..so well UCAV will be more functional that way.
 

hit&run

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Actually you are right in your concern regarding internal security. But IMO its a clever acquisition decision on part of GoI. How???...........


India right now is operating indigenous and Israeli drones for internal and border surveillance. But what India is seeking right now is UCAV, i.e. combat UAV. We have to keep in mind that right now India is investing domestically on weaponised Rustom. Now the question arise that why we need weaponised Rustom if we are not planning to attack it anywhere internally and externally.

The biggest drawback of Rustom and Heron which we are operating right now is their endurance period. We could have gone for simple surveillance drone as of now, but we should also keep in mind that we are investing heavily on such simple domestic surveillance drones. So if we go for another multi million dollar surveillance drone, then .......................

Moreover take a look at what is our armed force casualty rate at fighting insurgencies in thick forested border area. Ofcource we can't use any heavy weapon in civilian areas, but the presence of an UCAV in these forested areas is a force multiplier for our ground troop.

So I think its a good decision on our part to invest on these UCAV for our first line of internal security. Whatever @Screambowl had said would be added advantage, but I dont look at it so deep enough. :)
Our armed drone capabilities are crap. We are honest enough not to copy Israeli machines and complacent enough not to develop our own as we can buy from our so called deep pockets.

I am yet to be convinced if these drones will be used in alpine terrain like J&K.

I am not against this purchase. I understand its importance from diplomatic, strategic, technological POV and very capabilities that it will offer us.

My argument is against jingoism that is used to shove everything and anything at Pakistan or its use against Pakistan based terror group.
 

hit&run

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There was random talks about India using surgical strikes to get terror training camps in PoK..so well UCAV will be more functional that way.
You guys have kind of pushed me towards thinking in that direction now. However my response would be still guarded to believe in that proposition. The reason is if we had the political will to strike POK terror camps then we can do it even without these drones.

Having said that every acquisition your adversary has is your military planner's head ache. So I would give in to the fact that these drones will add to Pakistani and Chinese headache.
 

sorcerer

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^^
So far the biggest threat India is facing is from pakistan and pak foreign policy of using terror groups plus the eastern border is warming up too with fanatic groups from across the border.

One of the best blitzkrieg operation Indian Army did against terror groups happened at our Eastern Border and well into Myanmar!
So yeah a UCAV would come in handy..any time.
 

Chinmoy

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Our armed drone capabilities are crap. We are honest enough not to copy Israeli machines and complacent enough not to develop our own as we can buy from our so called deep pockets.

I am yet to be convinced if these drones will be used in alpine terrain like J&K.

I am not against this purchase. I understand its importance from diplomatic, strategic, technological POV and very capabilities that it will offer us.

My argument is against jingoism that is used to shove everything and anything at Pakistan or its use against Pakistan based terror group.
Wellllllllllllll............... regarding your first para, I'd like to agree as well as disagree with you. Our drones had been crap, but in last 4 years we have made astronomical advantage in this field. Previously our drones are good enough for target practice only. But recently we have upgraded a lot into surveillance and i have experienced it first hand. But as far as combat usage is concerned, we have lot to catch up.

What is stopping you from getting convinced that we can't use it in alpine jungle is beyond my imagination. We just need a strong political will for that. Its not like we would be using them in dense populated civilian area anywhere.

As far as jingoism is concerned, it is a creation of media house world wide. Don't even think that these would be used anywhere across LOC or LAC. Its just something created to keep the heat the up.
 

sorcerer

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You guys have kind of pushed me towards thinking in that direction now. However my response would be still guarded to believe in that proposition. The reason is if we had the political will to strike POK terror camps then we can do it even without these drones.

Having said that every acquisition your adversary has is your military planner's head ache. So I would give in to the fact that these drones will add to Pakistani and Chinese headache.
We have ANOTHER economical option to strike PoK terror camps safely with the UCAVs with loitering capability.
 

Chinmoy

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^^
So far the biggest threat India is facing is from pakistan and pak foreign policy of using terror groups plus the eastern border is warming up too with fanatic groups from across the border.

One of the best blitzkrieg operation Indian Army did against terror groups happened at our Eastern Border and well into Myanmar!
So yeah a UCAV would come in handy..any time.
If you are thinking that India would use drones in cross border bombings ops, then please forget it for next couple of decades. India is not US to face such a political misadventure with China in its neighbour. Yeah, given the altitude and endurance of Predators, its the best option India would have in surveillance.
 

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India begins ground works for Drones with a Punch

In first of things to come, Narendra Modi government as per media reports cleared Rs 3,000-crore plan to develop a new engine that will power India’s first unmanned combat aircraft

Ghatak engine will be derived from abandoned Kaveri engine Program and to address Indian military requirements for weaponized unmanned systems, India will also be importing 10 Heron TP UCAV’s from Israel and will also be aggressively pursuing indigenous capabilities to develop, manufacture, operate and support platforms and technologies related to drone weaponisation.

http://idrw.org/india-begins-ground-works-for-drones-with-a-punch/ .
 

hit&run

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Wellllllllllllll............... regarding your first para, I'd like to agree as well as disagree with you. Our drones had been crap, but in last 4 years we have made astronomical advantage in this field. Previously our drones are good enough for target practice only. But recently we have upgraded a lot into surveillance and i have experienced it first hand. But as far as combat usage is concerned, we have lot to catch up.

What is stopping you from getting convinced that we can't use it in alpine jungle is beyond my imagination. We just need a strong political will for that. Its not like we would be using them in dense populated civilian area anywhere.

As far as jingoism is concerned, it is a creation of media house world wide. Don't even think that these would be used anywhere across LOC or LAC. Its just something created to keep the heat the up.
Is there any example where drones have been effectively used in High alpine theater ?

AQAP terrorist group Alsharia in Yamen ran into Eastern mountain of Yamen to remain safer from drone strikes.

I be happy to be proven wrong.

Thanks
 

sorcerer

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If you are thinking that India would use drones in cross border bombings ops, then please forget it for next couple of decades. India is not US to face such a political misadventure with China in its neighbour. Yeah, given the altitude and endurance of Predators, its the best option India would have in surveillance.
Noooo...India is not stupid china for CROSS BORDER stunts and Hegemony and its side effects. As a matter of fact India doesn't do these kind of one sided stunts.


But India can HELP nations bordering it in JOINT OPERATIONS ..covert and overt on TERROR to secure its borders..our borders and make the world more beautiful and peaceful. We have successfully and effectively done such operations with purpose when nations REQUESTED for Indian assistance.

SARC could have a new purpose with awesome technology with India and terrorism at the heels of many eastern nations.
The Blitzkrieg inside Myanmar was with the solid support of Myanmar establishment and their patriotic military- A succesful joint operation.

Political will is another thing, we are witnessing a slight shift already which has rattled some big time.
 
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Chinmoy

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Is there any example where drones have been effectively used in High alpine theater ?

AQAP terrorist group Alsharia in Yamen ran into Eastern mountain of Yamen to remain safer from drone strikes.

I be happy to be proven wrong.

Thanks
A valid observation I would say. But if you have read my post, then I have said that I have experienced first hand the surveillance capability of our home made drones. Now mountainous regions are not only safe from drone surveillance, but from satellite and ground surveillance too. People use the crevices and valleys to hide themselves from any sort of surveillance. A good example is OBL escaping from Afghanistan to Pakistan through Hindukush,

there would always be loop holes and gaps in whatever defensive measure you undertake. But its upto you to constantly try and plug those holes. You can't leave one option open because you don't think it necessary right now. Its all about what you are planning in future and what you are planning for present.
 

Chinmoy

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Noooo...India is not stupid china for CROSS BORDER stunts and Hegemony and its side effects. As a matter of fact India doesn't do these kind of one sided stunts.


But India can HELP nations bordering it in JOINT OPERATIONS ..covert and overt on TERROR to secure its borders..our borders and make the world more beautiful and peaceful. We have successfully and effectively done such operations with purpose when nations REQUESTED for Indian assistance.

SARC could have a new purpose with awesome technology with India and terrorism at the heels of many eastern nations.
The Blitzkrieg inside Myanmar was with the solid support of Myanmar establishment and their patriotic military- A succesful joint operation.

Political will is another thing, we are witnessing a slight shift already which has rattled some big time.
Just a simple observation................. Myanmar had shed its Military Junta and embraced democracy with Suu Kyi. Bangladesh is a sovereign country with Chinese access. Sri Lanka too have Chinese access to its sovereignty. Leave alone Pakistan. Nepal's condition is best not mentioned. The only neighbour which we could depend upon with blind eye (!) is Bhutan.

So in this condition how you could talk about a strong political presence and will of cross border support in your cross border raids.
 

sorcerer

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Just a simple observation................. Myanmar had shed its Military Junta and embraced democracy with Suu Kyi. Bangladesh is a sovereign country with Chinese access. Sri Lanka too have Chinese access to its sovereignty. Leave alone Pakistan. Nepal's condition is best not mentioned. The only neighbour which we could depend upon with blind eye (!) is Bhutan.

So in this condition how you could talk about a strong political presence and will of cross border support in your cross border raids.
As I mentioned...there is a POSSIBILITY( A possibility of playing definitive role) of India being able to play a lead role and with technology it will be a bit easy. I mentioned we see a pro activeness,a follow up on diplomatic dialogue with real world action in political will.

chinese access is a different thing and chinese action is a whole different thing+chinese did create terrorists organizations in these regions of which many act against India. So its vital for Indian interest to keep a good check on them and do what it can, be it raids or otherwise to tackle it.

Whatever be the flavor of nation and its rules, when all these nations have a common threat which their mil. cant handle(Which is on the rise) India CAN play a lead role. In times of disasters India has played a vital, responsible and key role in the region despite borders.

A lot of these recent visits at high levels points to "working together" to counter terrorism with terrorism being the center focus of many such visits.

We never expected Myanmar to support Indian counter terror ops till it happened.
.
Have we seen china take any initiative in counter terrorism else where other than the "proclaimed" East Turkestan muscle flexing?chinas double stand on terrorism is well known in this world.

For china its more economical, they would try to freeload on whatever they can after India or other nation saturates the situation.
china is well known in these nation to use terrorism as a state policy for political gains many of which are hurting the very existence of the host nations.
Isnt the strong trust deficit for china well known in this region with democracies and sovereign nations questioning the chinese intent.


China's Counter terrorism Pledge Highly Questionable:

Uighur separatists who have adopted violent measures to take on the mighty Chinese state, and the Tibetan peaceful pro-autonomy movement, though unorganized, are China’s only problem with terrorism, separatism and religious extremism, described by Beijing as the “three evils.”

China has another strategy, however, for the three evils active against other countries. It is the old strategy of Mao Zedong, getting together a united front of such groups and elements.

In the early 1980s, China’s supreme leader Deng Xiaoping admitted that the past strategy of supporting such insurgent groups and forming communist revolutionary parties was wrong. China had formed the Communist Party of Burma and parties in Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia. Some of their leaders were shown attending China’s national day celebrations. The Communist Party of Indonesia staged an uprising in 1965, but was defeated. These South East Asian countries broke off diplomatic relations with China.(These relations were restored much later- Indonesia was the last one to do so).Deng promised this policy would not recur. But support to Indian insurgent groups (IIGs) was quietly revived-these included the Nagas (NSCN),People’s Liberation Army of Manipur PLA(M),which were started in the 1960s.Later the United Liberation Front of Assam(ULFA)was added to the list. These insurgents were given training in China’s Yunan province, bordering Myanmar, from where arms were clandestinely transferred to them.

When these IIGs were welcomed in Bangladesh under the BNP-Jamaat government, arms came through Bangladesh’s Chittagong port. In 2004 ten truckloads of arms from China were accidentally interdicted in Chittagong port. ULFA Commander -in -Chief Paresh Barua, who lived in Dhaka openly, was in Chittagong that day to receive the weapons and explosives. Paresh Barua and Antony Shimray of the NSCN(I/M)who lived in Bangladesh, had Chinese visas.

Although some of the IIGs have split, ULFA leader Paresh Barua now operates from the Yunan - Myanmar border. The Naga split faction led by Myanmarese Naga leader Khaplang lives in Myanmar and is active in anti-India insurgency. The PLA (M) camps are based in Myanmar. According to latest reports from Myanmar, China is trying to form these groups into a united front for action in India’s North East. The Chinese intelligence interacts with them through cut-outs, maintaining room for deniability. Anthony Shimray, who is in Indian custody now, has confessed to Chinese assistance. It can, therefore, be fairly concluded that China continues to press India both from the west and the east.

When China supports terrorists and insurgents, Beijing’s much declared position against international terrorism becomes highly questionable. Their focus remains only on the Uighurs. China is going against international efforts to combat terrorism.

This brings to question China’s position on terrorism in Afghanistan and Central Asia. China has given no public statement on the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU). The IMU and Chechen rebels have declared their agenda in Central Asia and Russia.

Despite the new bonhomie between China and Russia, the two are now competing for dominant influence in Central Asia. Moscow considers this region as its legitimate backyard and area of influence. Yet Russia’s economic and political interest forces it to abstain from raising such issues with China. Will Beijing use these terrorists against Russia as it is doing with India?

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/node/1808
 

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