In India's power crisis, China sees a business opportunity

[Ray]

And in the cost in producing electricity.

That apart one has to really know the MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures).

 

[Tolaha]

Do you have any evidence that Chinese electrical equipment are of low quality? If so, why isn't there any blackout in PRC?

How would you convince anyone that BHEL's equipment are better than the Chinese? Do you have any data in hand, or are you being imaginative?

The cost of cuttings corners in the Indian deal -> Outside chance of your company not being considered in the next round of bids

Cost of cutting corners in the Chinese deal -> Real chance of your head being cut off

Nope, I don't have any evidence to back my claim. Just speculating! It probably does not save any lives by being extra careful while you are a Chinese company implementing a contract in India!

 

[Ray]

Do you have any evidence that Chinese electrical equipment are of low quality? If so, why isn't there any blackout in PRC?

Running at sub requirement (as I mentioned in one of the links) helps conserve the equipment as also less wear and tear.

Because it is run at sub requirement, one can give 'rest' to the equipment so that it inspection and maintenance is done and failures avoided.

Even if one set of equipment is on the blink, others can compensate the void.

Therefore, the low quality can never surface, even if it were so compared to other equipment of other nations.

Give us a link how the Chinese run their power generation and maybe we will understand your point.

In the Armies around the world, equipment is 'mothballed' and used in rotation to ensure that they are operation worthy and only one set is used as representative of the whole. Just an example of how to conserve equipment and ensure optimum efficiency when the push comes to a shove!

 

[nimo_cn]

I am not sure if the argument among Indian posters here has any resemblance to most arguments happening elsewhere, but if it does, I have to say another outage of such scale is very likely to happen again in India.

 

[Bhadra]

I am not sure if the argument among Indian posters here has any resemblance to most arguments happening elsewhere, but if it does, I have to say another outage of such scale is very likely to happen again in India.

nimo,, you are the loner on the subject now and only wishing bad for a country that buys Chinese equipment !

 

[Ray]

I am not sure if the argument among Indian posters here has any resemblance to most arguments happening elsewhere, but if it does, I have to say another outage of such scale is very likely to happen again in India.

Hopefully not.

Precautions are being taken so that the island mode operation is being envisaged.

Global Times has cautioned China to take a lesson from what has happened in India.

nimo,, you are the loner on the subject now and only wishing bad for a country that buys Chinese equipment !

I think with the latest tax on imported power equipment that has been levied, Indian power equipment will be at par with the Chinese.

 

[nimo_cn]

nimo,, you are the loner on the subject now and only wishing bad for a country that buys Chinese equipment !

I am not wishing for India, but making a reasonable precaution. Instead of finding out the faults inside yourself, you just indulge in blaming others. There is no way the problems hidden in your grid is gonna be fixed in this way, hence it is very likely to happen again.

 

[pmaitra]

PM, I will give you an example. As per the latest GOI guidelines to improve efficiency and reduce pollution the Government has specified that the minumum size of a thermal power station unit will be 660 MW, or in other words only Super Critical Thermal plants will be allowed.

The standards for the Heat Rate for Super Critical Units is

Heat rate at 100% MCR with motor driven BFP: 1,810 kcal/ kWh.
Heat rate at 100% MCR with turbine driven BFP: 1,850 kcal/ kWh.with a heat rate of 1850 Kcal/kwh

Chinese do not manufacture equipment with Heat Rates ( level of efficiency) less than 1860 Kcal/kwh, so you can understand about the quality levels.

The Chinese firms can supply equipment with these specs. but then they will not be competitive anymore.

Thank you for the data (whatever your source is). So the power projects should not buy any equipment that does not have all these specs.

Running at sub requirement (as I mentioned in one of the links) helps conserve the equipment as also less wear and tear.

Because it is run at sub requirement, one can give 'rest' to the equipment so that it inspection and maintenance is done and failures avoided.

Even if one set of equipment is on the blink, others can compensate the void.

Therefore, the low quality can never surface, even if it were so compared to other equipment of other nations.

Sir, I have seen your link about Lanco's power project in Chhattisgarh. You have still not supported your claim that "cheap is bad."

Give us a link how the Chinese run their power generation and maybe we will understand your point.

Ray Sir, I will try to help you understand my point. If, the Indian power failure was due to cheap and therefore bad Chinese equipment, then why isn't there similar power failures in PRC? This is my point. Let me know if you still need help understanding this point.

You made the claim that cheap is bad, so please give us a link proves your claim.

Here is another instance of a power failure:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/aug/15/usa.davidteather

What do you say? Was this also the fault of "cheap and therefore bad Chinese equipment?"

The biggest problem is this 'witch hunt' mentality in India.

Keep pointing fingers, nonetheless.

 

[Ray]

Ray Sir, I will try to help you understand my point. If, the Indian power failure was due to cheap and therefore bad Chinese equipment, then why isn't there similar power failures in PRC? This is my point. Let me know if you still need help understanding this point.

I have explained quite a few times.

You don't seem to find time to see it.

I have even explained with the concept of 'mothballing' as we practice in correlation with under generation which China is doing.

 

[pmaitra]

I have explained quite a few times.

You don't seem to find time to see it.

I have even explained with the concept of 'mothballing' as we practice in correlation with under generation which China is doing.

You explained to me quite a few times that anything that is cheap is bad? Where?

Your example of the Merc-Benz does not back up that claim. Your explanation of mothballing does not back up that claim either.

I apologize if my questions made you uncomfortable, but as I said, the claim that cheap stuff is bad remains unsupported.

P.S.: Indian Railways uses lot of electric locomotives made in India, with foreign components and collaboration. There are failures there as well. Expensive stuff, and yet fails.

 

[sob]

PM, the recent grid collapse is not due to Chinese equipment. It is more a case of bad grid management and a generation/consumption gap which is increasing day by day. Another factor has been that the entry of Chinese equipment is a recent phenomenon, so the jury is still out. However in some cases like the Yamunanagar plant and Adani plant there are reports of problems due to quality of components.

Regards the figures I had quoted you wanted some links,

Heat Rate : These are CEA figures open for everybody Prospering Indian Power Sector: Technical Standards Regulations 2010: Maximum heat rate of 2,280 kcal/kWh for coal plants

For Chinese equipment I went by media reports in China : India power equipment tenders discriminate against Chinese equipment manufacturers «

 

[pmaitra]

PM, the recent grid collapse is not due to Chinese equipment. It is more a case of bad grid management and a generation/consumption gap which is increasing day by day. Another factor has been that the entry of Chinese equipment is a recent phenomenon, so the jury is still out. However in some cases like the Yamunanagar plant and Adani plant there are reports of problems due to quality of components.

Regards the figures I had quoted you wanted some links,

Heat Rate : These are CEA figures open for everybody Prospering Indian Power Sector: Technical Standards Regulations 2010: Maximum heat rate of 2,280 kcal/kWh for coal plants

For Chinese equipment I went by media reports in China : India power equipment tenders discriminate against Chinese equipment manufacturers �

Thank you SOB. That was my question right from the beginning. The grid collapse is being blamed on Chinese equipment citing the reason they are cheap. What many people don't realize is that PRC subsidizes their exports to keep them competitive. So the manufacturing cost of a motor of same quality might be the same in India and PRC, when exported by PRC, they turn out to be cheaper.
China and Subsidies | Alliance for American Manufacturing

Now, there is a tendency among many commentators to say, Chinese equipment are cheap and therefore they are the cause of all problems. This is utter drivel. You are very correct in what you cited as the reason.

Thanks for the links.

I have been using Chinese made stuff for years. US markets are full of then. Starting from lamps, to electric drill machines, I have used all.

 

[sob]

Generally in India we have not seen the good quality stuff from China. The imports done by Indian companies are all low quality stuff which are incredibly cheap and do not last or in case of batteries do not work even.

The Chinese by their short sighted policy of selling quality compared to price have spoiled this market and will be very difficult to penetrate for them. I have seen personally last week in CROCS showroom, a gentleman was resisting buying because they were all made in China, but the moment he saw the particular piece was made in Vietnam, he immediately bought it.

 

[sob]

Self Delete-- double post

 

[pmaitra]

Generally in India we have not seen the good quality stuff from China. The imports done by Indian companies are all low quality stuff which are incredibly cheap and do not last or in case of batteries do not work even.

The Chinese by their short sighted policy of selling quality compared to price have spoiled this market and will be very difficult to penetrate for them. I have seen personally last week in CROCS showroom, a gentleman was resisting buying because they were all made in China, but the moment he saw the particular piece was made in Vietnam, he immediately bought it.

I have seen people queue around for Chinese made iPhones in Apple Stores here in the US. They are cheaper than what thy would be in manufactured in the US.

Back to topic, I think there are ways to check and test if any equipment is of good and reliable quality. As long as they get the job done and meet the requirements, any equipment should be ok. Moreover, if operations and management is faulty, any equipment will break down. So many electric locomotives, with components from Hitachi, Siemens, GE, etc., break down, and they are not even cheap.

Proper quality check, proper usage, proper maintenance - if these issues are not sorted out, then any amount of blaming others will not solve any of our problems.

 

[no smoking]

Generally in India we have not seen the good quality stuff from China. The imports done by Indian companies are all low quality stuff which are incredibly cheap and do not last or in case of batteries do not work even.

The Chinese by their short sighted policy of selling quality compared to price have spoiled this market and will be very difficult to penetrate for them. I have seen personally last week in CROCS showroom, a gentleman was resisting buying because they were all made in China, but the moment he saw the particular piece was made in Vietnam, he immediately bought it.

Good, tell me how many gentlemen are resisting buying Made in China?
I just wonder where are those trillions of Chinese exportations are sold to.
Or you just tell me that those indian companies have been buying something from China that no customer wants for 10 years!

 

[pmaitra]

Good, tell me how many gentlemen are resisting buying Made in China?
I just wonder where are those trillions of Chinese exportations are sold to.
Or you just tell me that those indian companies have been buying something from China that no customer wants for 10 years!

That's hysteria, and confusing political tensions between India and PRC with common sense.

The fact is that the power grid failure was not due to Chinese equipment.

If the equipment is good, India should buy it, whether Chinese or not; if it is bad, it should be rejected, whether Chinese or not.

 

[no smoking]

That's hysteria, and confusing political tensions between India and PRC with common sense.

The fact is that the power grid failure was not due to Chinese equipment.

If the equipment is good, India should buy it, whether Chinese or not; if it is bad, it should be rejected, whether Chinese or not.

Thanks, Pamaitra.
It is just too many indian members in this forum discussing things from their emotion instead of logic.