In India why does the girls's family pay dowry?

Ray

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:lol:Check "within" this thread on how many like you have got for your posts and compare it with mine. So far, I have more likes than you in this thread and so I am right in this thread and you are wrong.

So your argument fails by even your logic:rofl:
Again blather and nothing more.
 

Mad Indian

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Yes, so I realize why you said that the "solution" that I described of my community is a good one. A woman earning upto Rs. 30000 per month and having 6 lakh property in her name will do nicely for the above-mentioned software engineer.

So in effect, if we follow this model, the onus is on the girl (the individual) to study, get an education, perform well and achieve an independent status in life, to get good boys.

Of course, there will be exceptions like extremely beautiful ravishing girls with model/actress level of beauty. Those girls will probably have it easy, there will be less pressure on them - but then, those are outliers, so we can probably ignore those cases.
If it will help you see this more objectively, I will give you another example or analogy.

Scenerio 1. A Bride's father with a son and a daughter, with a net worth of 20Lakhs in assets tries getting a groom for his daughter. He is not in a mood to give away dowry but is willing to give his daughter half his assets as wealth/inheritance. He finds a groom , whose father has a net worth of 40 lakhs as his asset and has a son and daughter(so in essence, the net inheritance of the son is only 20 Lakhs). So the groom's family think that the bride's family is not upto their societal status and reject the matrimonial proposal

Scenerio 2. A Bride's father with a son and a daughter, with a net worth of 20Lakhs in assets tries getting a groom for his daughter. He is willing to half his assets as dowry, which would amount to rupees 10 lakhs. He finds a groom , whose father has a net worth of 40 lakhs as his asset and has a son and daughter(so in essence, the net inheritance of the son is only 20 Lakhs). So the groom's family think that the since their son is worth 20lakhs in wealth, the dowry of 10 lakhs is not enough and reject the matrimonial proposal


Now tell me, is there any difference of anykind be it moral or whatever, between scenerio 1 and scenerio 2? So tell me how people dowry oriented marriages are bad and status/wealth calculated marriages are okay?

Should we pass a law banning marriages done under wealth or status calculations too now?
 
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Mad Indian

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Your argument is valid only, if the girl files a partition suit in a court. Even the court will consider the dowry as her share, while considering the partion of property. This only hapens only, if girls give much importance to money than her parents & brothers.

In a tradiotional way, the dowry is a way of giving a fair share of her property.

Apart from the dowry given during marriage, there are other seers from brothers of the girl ( or parents ) begining from the ear piercing of her child to the their marriage and also Diwali & Pongal seer every year.
Oh no dowry is bad you evil man. Dont you have any shame. Its not okay to ask dowry because I have heard it to be wrong so many times and I lack the brain to critically analyse it on the practical grounds. Oh no, I heard dowry is bad and so it is bad. Logic and ground realities be damned.:sarcastic:

But, since I have not heard anything bad about status driven marriages, I guess that is okay :lol:
 

maomao

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In China why does a boy's family pay dowry?
 

TheLord

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Oh no dowry is bad you evil man. Dont you have any shame. Its not okay to ask dowry because I have heard it to be wrong so many times and I lack the brain to critically analyse it on the practical grounds. Oh no, I heard dowry is bad and so it is bad. Logic and ground realities be damned.:sarcastic:

But, since I have not heard anything bad about status driven marriages, I guess that is okay :lol:
As a clarification, shall we assume dowry as money demanded by boys' side and "seer" ( tradiotional word ) as girls fair share of property calculated by the girls' parents. Replace the word dowry in my post with the word "seer".
 

Ray

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When cornered with logic and facts, you blurt out nonsense. I am not surprised :rofl:

any more of your irrelevant OT posts for flamebait will be deleted and you shall be duly advised.

I am tired of responding to stupidity and flamebaits.
 

Mad Indian

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As a clarification, shall we assume dowry as money demanded by boys' side and "seer" ( tradiotional word ) as girls fair share of property calculated by the girls' parents. Replace the word dowry in my post with the word "seer".
We dont even have to assume. Thats how traditional Hindu marriages worked - girl's share of the property was given to her by her brothers and her father as dowry to the boy. There was nothing wrong with that.

The problem with people these days is that they take whatever nonsense shown in the media as divine truth with no thinking of their own.

Dowry has been demonised for several decades now. People find that word so allergic that they dont even think about the context in which it was present in the first place. Now, they have a problem thinking past their clouded judgement and see it objectively

PS: I was just kidding when I called you "evil" dude. I was making fun of the people who are not willing to see this issue objectively
 

Ray

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Why DOWRY is BAD

Dowry was not a social malpractice like corruption, etc. The circumstances under which it was prevalent earlier, justified its existence. When there were joint families, every family had a number of son's and daughter's. Since the daughter's were married off, they were given their share in the family property in advance (during marriage) in the name of dowry. After that, daughter's did not have any rights on the family property/lands etc.

This system as I see it, was fair and fine till may be about 100 years back. When the law allowed equal share for both men and women in the ancestral property, dowry should have immediately ceased to exist. Or rather, people should have stopped taking/giving dowry. To see that it lives on, in every class of the society irrespective of one's education and knowledge of the law that prevents families from exchanging wealth during marriages, is a shocker!


In South Indian marriages, there is a separate room where all the gifts from the girl's side is displayed brazenly for the amusement of the guests. The first thing that anyone asks after they come to know about a marriage is not about studies or family background. But it's invariably about how much dowry is being offered!

In fact, a boy is declared to be suitable for marriage if parents think that a size-able amount of money can be demanded based on the income/work, etc. The girl is declared to be suitable for marriage, if their parents are able to arrange the required funds to be given as dowry. And then, there are relatives. In some communities, relatives get commission (for connecting boy's family and girl's family) depending on the dowry amount facilitated by them!

My Questions:

Is dowry a substitute to work? I know many families whose main source of income and main source of building a house, etc is the money obtained illegally through dowry. Many people don't take up any credible work outside home and some of them just sit and eat in their homes because they have got the bumper 'dowry' prize!

Do you think once the money is given, people will stop asking for it? Don't you think dowry is the seed for life-long demands from the boy's family?

Is dowry given by the girl's side to control their daughter and son-in-law by making them economically dependent on the parents?

Isn't dowry illegal? How can a whole nation shamelessly break the law? Does it mean that we don't value the laws set by our representatives, for our own good?

If you think dowry benefits women, it definitely doesn't. It just enslaves women and makes them dependent on the money earned by others. It discourages them from working and being independent.

Is the amount of dowry given during marriages a way to show-off one's social status? I have seen cars (given as dowry) proudly displayed outside marriage halls!
Don't people play the sudden increase in dowry amounts just before one day of the marriage and force women into submission with 'accepted amount of dowry was never given by your parents' dialogue?

Dowry based deaths/harassments have always been happening. Do all of them come to our notice? Isn't female infanticide, a result of dowry?
With girls and boys equally educated and earning equally today, why should the girl's side still pay dowry?

Because girl's parents paid hefty amounts in dowry, they suffer huge debts for rest of their lives. Is it right to put one's parents who brought us up, into such a horrific situation? When they need money or some care during old age, people don't as much turn up. Forget helping. If no dowry was involved, couldn't girl's parents have saved enough money to plan their own future?

The biggest question that puzzles me is – Why do girl's parents insist on paying dowry? What do you think is the motivation for it?
Why DOWRY is BAD | Destination Infinity
Apparently the writer is a South Indian since his examples are from South India.
 

Ray

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THE DOWRY SYSTEM IN INDIA

Zac Poonen

It is unfortunately, normal among Christians of all denominations in India, for a boy's father to ask for a dowry from the girl's father before a marriage is finalised. This has reduced marriage to a business deal. Among unbelievers, such a practice is understandable because, being spiritually blind, they allow covetousness to rule their lives. But what shall we say when most believers also indulge in this practice - even those who claim to be Spirit-filled? Surely the Devil has blinded them too.

Many a marriage arrangement has failed because the parents of the girl could not meet the exorbitant demand for dowry made by the parents of the boy. Many girls in our land have been emotionally disturbed and brought to frustration because of this - and some have even committed suicide. Every day in India, some wife somewhere burns herself to death because of her husband harassing her to get more dowry from her father.

God will severely judge all those who make marriage a matter of striking a financial deal. This judgment will begin at the house of God, among those who claim to be born again. It is because many believers have not spoken out against the evil practice of dowry that it is still so widely prevalent in Christendom in India today. It is a sad thing indeed when those who should be standing upright for God in a warped and crooked world, become warped and crooked themselves. No Christian who wants to please God should ever ask for, or receive a dowry.

Some brothers hide under the excuse that it is their parents who ask for dowry and not they themselves. But if they have any convictions at all, why don't they speak up and tell their parents that they don't want any dowry? The reason must be that they too secretly desire the money. If they are convinced that the dowry system is wrong, they should speak up for the truth. It is surprising that many brothers who are strong-willed when it comes to other matters, act like spineless jelly-fish when it comes to expressing their convictions on dowry to their parents!

Some brothers say that it is only reasonable that their parents who have spent so much money on their education should now receive some money as dowry from the girl's parents. But the girl's parents have also spent money on educating her! Why doesn't the boy give money to her father for giving him an educated girl??

Others justify their asking for dowry by saying that their parents will need money to give as dowry for their sisters when the latter get married. But we can be certain that God will not let anyone down, who seeks to honour Him in this matter. If you honour Him, He will honour you and give good husbands to your sisters (or daughters) without your having to pay any dowry (1 Sam. 2:30). If you say you don't have faith for that, then I have nothing more to say to you, for I am writing now only for wholehearted Christians. The commandments of Jesus are meant only for wholehearted Christians.

Others may ask, "What is wrong in receiving money which the father of a girl gives gladly to her as a gift?" There is certainly nothing wrong with that. But before any brother uses this as an excuse for his covetousness, let him answer these three questions first:

(a) Was money any factor at all (even if the least important) in deciding the marriage?

(b) Did you or your representative (whether father or relatives) ever ask for the money, (or try to find out how much money the girl's parents had) before or after the marriage had been settled?

(c) Did you secretly hope that money would be given by the girl's parents (either to the girl or to you)?

If the answer is "Yes" to any of these questions, then you have certainly fallen a prey to covetousness, however well it may have been covered up by different excuses.

It is in such situations that the contradiction between a believer's preaching and his practice becomes evident to all. No wonder infidels are prompted to say, "Whatever Christians may preach, when it comes to money, they have the same religion as everyone else".

In some places, I have heard that the dowry system is the reverse of what is found in most parts of India. There the boy has to give a dowry to the girl's father in order to marry her. But whichever dowry system it be, the practice is an abomination to God.

Many may resent such a strong denunciation of the dowry system. But we must remember that the system is a product of man's covetousness, which the Bible calls idolatry (Col. 3:5). One has only to read the severe denunciation of idolatry in the Old Testament to realize how God detests it. The prophets of old were fiery in their preaching against it. They did not mince words when speaking against that which God hated.

We have preached against and stood against dowry consistently in CFC ever since the Lord established our church in 1975.

Personally, I have practised exactly what I have written above, in my own life. I refused to allow any discussion of dowry at the time of my wedding. I took the same stand against dowry when my four sons were getting married. In addition, I never sought to find out whether the parents of the girls (whom my sons were marrying) were rich or whether the girls themselves had good educational qualifications that would enable them to work and earn money. Unfortunately, these are the matters that most believers today are keen on finding out when getting their sons married. I was only keen to find out if the girls themselves loved the Lord and were disciples of the Lord Jesus. And I thank God that He honoured my desire by giving each of my four sons God-fearing wives who would help them in their ministry for the Lord and also help them to raise God-fearing children.

Whenever I conduct a wedding, I always take a signed declaration from both the bride and the bridegroom stating that no dowry has been exchanged between them or their parents. I do this so that both parties see the seriousness of this evil. If any dowry was given or received, then I refuse to conduct the wedding. If they deceive me they are answerable to God.

To expect dowry, or to accept dowry are both just as bad as asking for dowry. Those who accept or expect a dowry are both covetous. Such "Christians" should be honest and call themselves "heathen". They are certainly NOT followers of Jesus Christ.

Can you picture your asking Jesus to negotiate with a girl's father about the amount of dowry he should pay you before you agree to give your son in marriage to his daughter? You know very well that Jesus would never be willing to negotiate in such a matter. That itself should show you that expecting or receiving a dowry is wrong.

Receiving dowry or giving dowry or helping someone receive a dowry are all offences according to the law in India. The Dowry Prohibition Act, 1961 states:

"If anyone gives or takes or abets the giving or taking of dowry, he/she shall be punishable with imprisonment for not less than five years and with fine not less than Rs.15,000 or the amount of value of dowry, whichever is more."

Leaders of churches should be the foremost to obey the country's laws and to honour God in this matter. Any church-leader who is unwilling to take a stand against this evil dowry system has no right to remain in leadership in any church. Some leaders may secretly take a dowry without anyone knowing it. But God will deal with such hypocrites in His own time.

At a wedding, money may be given for the actual expenses of the wedding and the reception. But even this should ideally be equally shared by both parties. Thus both the boy and the girl are given equal dignity before God. But we cannot make a rule in this matter, because some are able to afford an expensive wedding and reception, while others are not.

It is perfectly in order for a bride's parents to give money to their daughter. But this is best done by putting the money in a bank account in her name. This is not a rule but only a guideline so that believers can preserve their testimony and not be accused of having received a dowry after the wedding.

There is another equally great evil in India - and that is the way daughters are treated by their parents when it comes to an inheritance. Many parents do not give an equal share of their wealth and assets to their daughters as they do to their sons. If it is evil to give or ask for dowry, it is an equally great evil for a parent not to give their daughters an equal share of their wealth as they give their sons. In God's eyes, sons and daughters have equal rights to their parents' assets. Any father who shows partiality to his sons over his daughters is an ungodly father, unfit to be called a Christian. Whether the father writes this in his will to be distributed after his death or whether he gives it to his children earlier is immaterial. But he must treat his daughters exactly like he treats his sons. And a daughter has every right to ask to be treated equally. Jesus taught that it is proper for children to ask their fathers for good gifts (Matt.7:9-11).

If Jesus were in India today, He would denounce the dowry system ruthlessly. Unfortunately, church-leaders who claim to represent Him, do not denounce this practice - because they love money themselves, or are eager not to offend the rich, or hope to get a commission themselves in the process!

Even a non-Christian film-actor in India has spoken out against dowry recently. Aamir Khan writes:

"I am totally opposed to dowry. It is not only a retrograde practice but also an illegal one. Think about it - can a relationship, built on the foundation of money and greed, be meaningful or beautiful? We should make our daughter so accomplished and independent that she is capable of crafting her own future and becoming the master of her own happiness. Then she won't need a greedy, useless groom to complete her life. Let her marry a person who respects her. Let her marry a man who she believes is worthy of her; whom she is happy to spend the rest of her life with."
[ The Aamir Khan Column: It's your entire life — not just an event - The Hindu ]

Such non-Christian film-stars are now putting to shame so-called "Spirit-filled, tongue-speaking" believers, in this matter! Those film-stars will rise up in the day of judgment and condemn all hypocritical believers.

This is one reason why the Lord has placed CFC and related churches (and I hope, some other churches too) as lighthouses in India, to stand for the truth and to proclaim His will in this matter. The Bible commands us to speak up for the rights of the needy (Prov.31:8,9). We must stand totally against this evil dowry system that has destroyed the lives of so many helpless girls in our land. We must also urge all parents to give an equal share of their wealth to their daughters as they give to their sons.

Daniel took a stand for the Lord in Babylon in a very small matter - not eating certain foods that God had forbidden in Leviticus 11. That was a very small commandment - but it was a small commandment given by a great God. Because Daniel honoured God, God honoured him. God is testing us now in little matters, to see whether we qualify to be a voice for Him.

May the Lord preserve us as a prophetic voice for Him in our land.
The Dowry System In India - Zac Poonen - Article
Here is a Christian viewpoint where such a thing like Dowry is not a part of the tradition since they claim all are born equal.
 

Blackwater

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IN Punjab and in Punjabi community, giving dowry is status symbol.
 

Khagesh

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Pagal Bharatiya got enough if you ask me. Likes decide only likeness. Not the truth. Kejriwal is highly liked. And there were once only 2 guys who understood Relativity (Einstein and Bose). In fact Muslims like Islam a lot and Chrisitians like Christianity a lot, but that did not stop them for doing what they did.

What needs to be done is both of you bet on an uncertain outcome based on your own theories of truth. May the best man win.

Hypothesis-Theory-Experiment. Any one of these three going off would put the proposer and his proposal, in trouble. Right!
 

Mad Indian

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I am tired of running in circles to show the obvious to you guys. When you are done being the sheeple and start thinking for yourselves objectively on why Dowry is in practice despite the decades of propaganda against it, you will find the answer yourself on the question of dowry. Its not even that difficult of a thing to do

I will give you a hint, dowry demand by the groom is no different than status/wealth calculation in marriages.

If you insist on being the sheeple, despite all the logic and facts presented to you, nothing can save you. Live in your echo chambers where you all agree with each other on the propaganda and nonsense. All the more power to you:thumb:
 

Ray

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IN Punjab and in Punjabi community, giving dowry is status symbol.
Band , bajaa, barat!

And the way money is wasted where people only drink Scotch and not eat the lavish spread actually makes me so sad.

I hardly eat. They shoved a whole tandoori chicken on my plate and forced me to eat it and next day I was sick.

I went to enjoy and came out a cropper.

But the love and affection was overwhelming.
 

pmaitra

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I am tired of running in circles to show the obvious to you guys. When you are done being the sheeple and start thinking for yourselves objectively on why Dowry is in practice despite the decades of propaganda against it, you will find the answer yourself on the question of dowry. Its not even that difficult of a thing to do

I will give you a hint, dowry demand by the groom is no different than status/wealth calculation in marriages.

If you insist on being the sheeple, despite all the logic and facts presented to you, nothing can save you. Live in your echo chambers where you all agree with each other on the propaganda and nonsense. All the more power to you:thumb:
And likes. :)

Ray
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Pagal Bharatiya got enough if you ask me. Likes decide only likeness. Not the truth. Kejriwal is highly liked. And there were once only 2 guys who understood Relativity (Einstein and Bose). In fact Muslims like Islam a lot and Chrisitians like Christianity a lot, but that did not stop them for doing what they did.

What needs to be done is both of you bet on an uncertain outcome based on your own theories of truth. May the best man win.

Hypothesis-Theory-Experiment. Any one of these three going off would put the proposer and his proposal, in trouble. Right!
 

Mad Indian

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Ray
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Pagal Bharatiya got enough if you ask me. Likes decide only likeness. Not the truth. Kejriwal is highly liked. And there were once only 2 guys who understood Relativity (Einstein and Bose). In fact Muslims like Islam a lot and Chrisitians like Christianity a lot, but that did not stop them for doing what they did.

What needs to be done is both of you bet on an uncertain outcome based on your own theories of truth. May the best man win.

Hypothesis-Theory-Experiment. Any one of these three going off would put the proposer and his proposal, in trouble. Right!
Yes, its argument ad populum- fallacy of argument to majority. But anyway, who gives a damn about truth - winning the argument by any means necessary is more important :p

Enough rant. I am done with this thread.

People wanting to live in echo chambers cant be helped to the truth
 

Razor

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I am tired of running in circles to show the obvious to you guys. When you are done being the sheeple and start thinking for yourselves objectively on why Dowry is in practice despite the decades of propaganda against it, you will find the answer yourself on the question of dowry. Its not even that difficult of a thing to do

I will give you a hint, dowry demand by the groom is no different than status/wealth calculation in marriages.

If you insist on being the sheeple, despite all the logic and facts presented to you, nothing can save you. Live in your echo chambers where you all agree with each other on the propaganda and nonsense. All the more power to you:thumb:
Unfortunately (or fortunately) we live in a world where what others do will affect us also.
 

Ray

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Status wealth calculations are done for the petty minded.

What one must check, if they want to check, is compatibility of shared values of the families. Not how much of money the families have.

Imbalance and incompatibility in values causes problems, no matter what is the status and wealth.

And Dowry cannot iron out the incompatibility.

Unhappiness and agony only rules when there is incompatibility in values, no matter what is the wealth and status.

The bolder ones divorce and the others live a miserable life carrying on for family prestige.

What needs to be done is both of you bet on an uncertain outcome based on your own theories of truth. May the best man win.
No I don't want to win.

I would be happy if INDIA wins. Where suicides, bride burning, domestic violence because of insufficient dowry, divorces, rapes etc becomes a thing of the past or at least reduces sizeably.
 
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