In future we may have to shop elsewhere--Russian arms industry in decline

[Parthy]

Indian arms race offers prizes for presidential visits

New Delhi: Arms-hungry India is expected to hand out a raft of military deals worth billions of dollars during an upcoming rush of presidential visits from the United States, France and Russia.

The biggest-ticket item is the scheduled signing of an estimated 30 billion-dollar stealth fighter co-production agreement when Russian President Dmitry Medvedev visits in late December.

Medvedev's trip will follow those of President Barack Obama and President Nicolas Sarkozy, both of whom will be pushing existing US and French tenders for lucrative military contracts.

Fuelling India's drive into the international arms market are growing concerns over China's military strength and its expanding sphere of regional influence.

"China would like to have a foothold in South Asia and we have to reflect on this reality," Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh warned in September.

"There is a new assertiveness among the Chinese. It is difficult to tell which way it will go. So it's important to be prepared," Singh said.

India and China fought a brief but bloody war in 1962 and border disputes remain unresolved despite many rounds of talks and improved economic ties.

"China is becoming more of an issue in India," said Siemon Wezeman, analyst from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

"The word 'threat' is now repeatedly used when officials talk about China, and Indian military strength along the disputed India-China border has been significantly increased, as has that of the Indian navy," Wezeman told AFP.

The staggered visits by the presidents of three top military powers come as India's defence sector is about to embark on what global consultancy firm KPMG described as "one of the largest procurement cycles in the world."

Between now and 2016, India is expected to spend 112 billion dollars on capital defence acquisitions, which will in turn create opportunities for domestic industry worth 30 billion dollars, KPMG said in a report published last week.

"These visits are driven by the opportunity of profiteering," said Alex Neill, an analyst with Britain's Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) think-tank.

"There is a global financial depression and the US and Russian interests in selling to the Indian military sector are driven by the commercial opportunity available," Neill said.

Wezeman, however, sounded a note of caution, citing India's notorious reputation for arms deals that can take years to come to fruition.

"Indian procurement is a slow process, and while Indian officials keep saying that decisions are close, often massive delays occur," he added.

US firms are hoping to pick up 10-12 billion dollars in contracts or assurances during Obama's trip in early November, including India's purchase of 10 Boeing military transport planes for around 5.8 billion dollars.

European aerospace giant EADS, which makes the Eurofighter, is competing with five other aeronautical firms from the US, Russia, France and Sweden to sell 126 fighter jets to India for 12 billion dollars next year.

"President Sarkozy's visit (in December) will definitely help European companies which are doing business here," Marie-Agnes Veve, CEO of the Indian arm of EADS unit Eurocopter, told AFP in New Delhi.

EADS is looking to sell 197 helicopters worth 600 million dollars to India, while France hopes to clinch a 2.1-billion dollar deal to upgrade India's Mirage-2000 jets.

Medvedev's visit will be capped by the scheduled signing of the pact to co-produce 250-300 stealth war jets by 2020.

Moscow-based analysts say the project has come as a life-saver to Russia's cash-strapped armament companies.

"Russia needs the Indian money like it needs air to accelerate the production of fighter jets for its own military," said Ruslan Pukhov, head of the Moscow-based Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies.

http://www.defencetalk.com/indian-arms-race-offers-prizes-for-presidential-visits-29736/

 

[Neil]

If Russia is interested in India, then why can't it be a vice-versa?? We know we have a very long relationship with Russia since cold-war..



Yes, its all about money in this world... And we need them to keep everybody's interest on us. If you're not considering Russia as our closes Ally who else will you consider??

bro....am not saying we are not interested in them....its just that their defence industry is in shatters and we should shop somewhere where we get best items....
even US is interested in us.....so what...??

there are no allies we our self are closest ally of us....! i repeat there are only interest in world politics...::when they meet we are allies when they dont we are enemies...

 

[Parthy]

Better relations with Russia​

Emerging global challenges as the catalyst

A few days back India and Russia finalised joint fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) and multirole transport aircraft (MTA) projects to be completed over the next decade as part of which India will acquire about 250-300 FGFAs and 45 MTAs. The Indian Defence Minister underlined that these would be the flagship Indo-Russian joint projects as the joint development of Brahmos cruise missiles has been a positive experiment that would serve as a model for FGFA and MTA projects. India also raised the issue of inordinate delays in the delivery of Russian defence systems, resulting in considerable cost escalation.

The delivery of the aircraft carrier, Admiral Gorshkov, has now been finalised for 2012-13 after India agreed to pay Russia $2.34 billion earlier this year as opposed to the original price of $974 million agreed to in 2004. India was supposed to get Akula-II nuclear-powered submarine last year but now its delivery has been postponed to March next year.

Despite this, the two sides are intent on having a strong defence partnership. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev will be in India in December and the deal for joint development of FGFA will be signed during his visit. The Russian Chief of Defence Forces will be in India followed by the visit of the Russian Navy Chief in January next year. The two armies will be holding a joint counter-terrorism exercise later this month in India and it will be followed by another one in Russia next year.

There are very few examples of a relationship between two countries that has been as stable as the one between India and Russia. Despite the momentous changes in the international environment after the end of the Cold War, there remains a continued convergence of interests that makes it advantageous for both India and Russia to maintain close ties. Barring a fleeting hiccup during Boris Yeltsin's term as Russia's President, New Delhi and Moscow have been extraordinarily successful in nurturing a friction-free relationship that harks back to the Soviet era.

After the Cold War, both India and Russia struggled for several years to define their relations with other major players on the global stage, where the rules of international politics were in a state of flux and where the terms of the economic interaction between nations were being reset. As India rose in the global inter-state hierarchy, many in this country continued to rely on Russia for railing against the "unipolar world order". The most visible manifestation of this tendency was an attempt to create a Russia-China-India "strategic triangle". The proposal for a Moscow-Beijing-Delhi strategic triangle had originally come from former Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov during his visit to India in 1998, arguing that such an arrangement would be a force for greater regional and international stability. But as every state in the triangle needed the US to further its own interests, this project could not move beyond platitudinous rhetoric.

And now with the US in relative decline and China emerging its most likely challenger, Russia and India are struggling with the implications of a possible Chinese hegemony over the Asian strategic landscape. It is this geopolitical imperative that is forcing Delhi and Moscow to ramp up their partnership. While this was not discussed in the open, this is the hidden subtext behind the rapidity with which the two countries are trying to revise their relationship. The rise of China is the new reality that India and Russia are trying to come to grips with, and this will shape the contours of their ties in the future.

Defence, of course, remains central to Indo-Russian relations. Not only is Russia the biggest supplier of defence products to India, but the India-Russia defence relationship also encompasses a wide range of activity that includes joint research, design, development, and co-production. India is now locally producing several Russian defence systems, including the Brahmos supersonic missile, the T-90 tank and Sukhoi fighter aircraft. Russia has agreed to further expand defence supplies ties with India, both in content and range, and has also decided to give its nod to cooperation in sophisticated spheres of technology about which the US and other Western nations seem reticent. During Putin's trip to New Delhi earlier this year, significant defence deals were signed that included a new contract for refitting the Gorshkov aircraft carrier; a $1.2 billion deal to procure 29 additional MiG 29 K naval fighter aircraft; and an agreement for an additional 40 Su MKI fighters for the Indian Air Force.

The bilateral defence relationship has indeed come under pressure as India has adjusted to the changing nature of modern warfare and shifted its defence priorities to the purchase of smart weaponry, which Russia is ill-equipped to provide. Already, India's increasing defence ties with Israel and the gradual opening of the U.S. arms market for India has made Russia relatively less exciting. The Indian military has been an critical of over-reliance on Russia for defence acquisition which was reflected in the Indian Naval Chief's view that there should be re-think on India's ties with Russia in the light of the Russian demand of $1.2 billion more for Admiral Gorshkov.

Though there is disquiet among the Indian armed forces about the Russian behaviour over Admiral Gorshkov, it is clear that Russia is the only country that is willing to share defence technology of strategic nature with India, including aircraft carriers and nuclear submarine. It is equally significant that Russia is probably the only major global power that has not sold defence technology to Pakistan. Civilian nuclear energy cooperation has also gathered momentum with a comprehensive nuclear deal between India and Russia and a pact to build two power plans in Tamil Nadu. Russia is already constructing four nuclear reactors in India, and this pact will lead to more than a dozen Russian nuclear power plants in India.

The rapidly deteriorating security situation in Afghanistan has been instrumental is bringing India and Russia closer to each others in recent years. Moscow's recent assertion that the security situation in Afghanistan "does impact the security" of India and Russia underscores the convergence of views between the two on the evolving situation in Afghanistan. As a consequence, India and Russia have stepped up cooperation on Afghanistan. This comes at a time when Indian disenchantment with the West on Af-Pak is at an all-time high and it is looking at alternative policy options to secure its interests. India-Russia partnership is only likely to get stronger in the light of the challenges that the two face in their vicinity.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20101027/edit.htm#2

 

[pmaitra]

russia didnt supply anything to us during 1962 it was US....it did it in 1971.....

russia doest consider us to be their close mate n stuffs...ithey just care about the money we provide them.....live in reality bro there are no friends or enemies in world politics there are just interest.....

No my friend, it is not really about money. Russia may be more pragmatic in it's approach towards India, but the USSR really did care about India and the camaraderie that Indians who when to the USSR received was par excellence.

Moreover, Russia is a country we can trust. A friend in need is a friend indeed. They stood by us in 1971-72, when we were threatened by Pakistan, PRC and USA. They stood by us and they have also helped us in many ways even after the collapse of the USSR. We can trust Russia more than anything else.

 

[Neil]

Moreover, Russia is a country we can trust. A friend in need is a friend indeed. They stood by us in 1971-72, when we were threatened by Pakistan, PRC and USA. They stood by us and they have also helped us in many ways even after the collapse of the USSR. We can trust Russia more than anything else.

bro....i am not saying we cant trust russia...i am only saying we cant be friends because there are no friends in world politics....
1971 was a deed that we wont forget ever but even we have done similar deeds to them-after the collapse of USSR it was India that provided money and employment by purchasing defence goods so we are equal....
regarding USA threatened us in 1971 is still in doubt just because of an aircraft carrier we cant say they threatened us.....

 

[SHASH2K2]

bro....i am not saying we cant trust russia...i am only saying we cant be friends because there are no friends in world politics....
1971 was a deed that we wont forget ever but even we have done similar deeds to them-after the collapse of USSR it was India that provided money and employment by purchasing defence goods so we are equal....
regarding USA threatened us in 1971 is still in doubt just because of an aircraft carrier we cant say they threatened us.....

so you wanted them to attack us with missiles? We were saved because in our support Russia also sent their naval fleet along with carrier. Else we were finished in 1972 .

 

[Parthy]

A friend in need is a friend indeed. They stood by us in 1971-72, when we were threatened by Pakistan, PRC and USA. They stood by us and they have also helped us in many ways even after the collapse of the USSR. We can trust Russia more than anything else.

:happy_8:

As Tshering said, its Russia had partnership with for 5th Generation fighter, provided T-72 and T-90 MBTs... Choppers, Transport aircraft, helped in converting SU 30 to MKI version.. I read an article recently by defence pro in Russia that they provided help to India's indigenous strategic nuclear program (INS Arihant)... Its Russia who helped us in all fields..

US thinks India more as a marketing place.. But Russia keeps India in a strategic position.. We should trust Russia and then Israel... :emot180:

 

[ajtr]

Why would we "shop elsewhere" in the future??

In the future, we should shop from only INDIA and no where else. The day that all our tanks, fighter jets, ships, etc. are made in India is the day that we will truly be safe.

Russian arms will last us another decade. Joint ventures will last us another decade after that. But from 2030 onwards, any foreign military equipment (be it Russian, French, Israeli, or other) should be shunned.

Coz indians like only foreign maal and gori chamadi be it common indian or the armed forces.

 

[Parthy]

bro....i am not saying we cant trust russia...i am only saying we cant be friends because there are no friends in world politics....
1971 was a deed that we wont forget ever but even we have done similar deeds to them-after the collapse of USSR it was India that provided money and employment by purchasing defence goods so we are equal....
regarding USA threatened us in 1971 is still in doubt just because of an aircraft carrier we cant say they threatened us.....

We should be loyal enough to the help whatever provided to us... If Russida wouldn't have sent Pacific Battlegroup with the atomic submarines, US would have nearly choked us helping Pakistan whatever they want.. And you wouldn't have posted anything of this sort BRO!!!

Learn from the past to know who you're friend and foe... :emot154:

 

[Parthy]

 

[Parthy]

In 1971, December, 3 the World has become an attestor to a new war between India and Pakistan. At afternoon the Pakistani aviation has strike the Indian cities and airstrips. The Indian PM Indira Gandhi put the country in emergency state and gave the order to nip the aggression. Hard clashes were started on the ground in the air, and at the sea.

Historic document: "Confident. December, 10, 1971. Moscow. For the DM Marshal Andrey Grechko. According to the information from our attach in Delhi in the first day of conflict the Indian destroyer 'Rajput' has sunk a Pakistani submarine by depth charges. In December, 4 and 9, the Indian fast boats have destroyed and damaged 10 Pakistani battle ships and vessels by the P-15 missiles. In addition 12 oil storages was burned in flame. The Commander of the Military Intelligence Service Gen. Pyotr Ivashutin".

In the same day the Soviet Intelligence has reported that the British Naval group with the leadership of 'Eagle' carrier went closer to the territorial waters of India. The Soviet Government immediately sent a unit of battle ships under the leadership of counter-admiral Vladimir Kruglyakov for helping to the fraternal country.

Vladimir Kruglyakov, the former (1970-1975) Commander of the 10th Operative Battle Group (Pacific Fleet) remembers:

"I received the order from the Chief Commander 'To not allow access of the American Navy to the Indian military objects'.

- On the way of American Navy stood the Soviet cruisers, destroyers and atomic submarines equipped with anti-ship missiles.

Vladimir Kruglyakov, the former (1970-1975) Commander of the 10th Operative Battle Group (Pacific Fleet) remembers:

"We encircled them and I have targeted the 'Enterprise' by missiles. I have blocked them and didnt allow enclosing to Karachi, nor to Chittagong or Dhaka".

On the Soviet ships then were only the missiles with limited to 300 km range. Thus, to be sure the rival is under the hindsight the Russian commanders have had to take the risk of maximal enclosing to the American fleet.

Vladimir Kruglyakov, the former (1970-1975) Commander of the 10th Operative Battle Group (Pacific Fleet) remembers:

"The Chief Commander has order me: 'Lift the subs when they (the Americans) appear!' It was done to demonstrate, there are all the needed in Indian Ocean, including the nuclear submarines. I have lifted them, and they recognized it. Then, we intercepted the American communication. The commander of the Carrier Battle Group was then the counter-admiral Dimon Gordon. He sent the report to the 7th American Fleet Commander: 'Sir, we are too late. There are the Russian atomic submarines here, and a big collection of the battleships'.

The war was then two weeks long, and it has finished by Pakistani forces surrendering.

http://www.pakistan.tv/videos-russian-vs-americans-in-bengal-bay--[Er2E_PpVUYw].cfm

 

[Parthy]

The logic is simple your enemy's enemy is your friend. There's nothing wrong about it!! :happy_8:

 

[SATISH]

Russia needs India and India needs Russia. We give them access to the warm waters of IOR and they give us leverage in world politics. And I dont think anyone other than Russia has the capability to build arms on par with the Americans without the American influence.

If you talk about delays in Russian projects...they arent even building it for their country...stuff are built exclusively for India. You can take the Talwar class, The INS Vikramaditya, the T 90S, Akula class subs, MiG 29k...the deliveries are for India first and then only to their own forces. So their delay is not intentional...but sometimes you must have patience to get the best.

 

[SHASH2K2]

we all forget that in context of Asian neighborhood Russians have considerable technical superiority . We are not going to fight against Americans in near future and Russians still have a lot to offer that to at lesser price. Best thing about Russians is that they are not ready to share some critical technologies that no one else will give us and also there is little or no Political interference from them .

 

[Neil]

so you wanted them to attack us with missiles? We were saved because in our support Russia also sent their naval fleet along with carrier. Else we were finished in 1972 .

just placing your carriers in bay of bengal does not mean war....if u go by accounts at BR forum there were american embassy staffs in bangladesh that time and it could be possible that they had sent their fleet to rescue them...its normal practice to send warships to rescue citizens during war-we did it in 2006....!!

 

[SHASH2K2]

just placing your carriers in bay of bengal does not mean war....if u go by accounts at BR forum there were american embassy staffs in bangladesh that time and it could be possible that they had sent their fleet to rescue them...its normal practice to send warships to rescue citizens during war-we did it in 2006....!!

If rescue was the main aim they could have sent a normal ship with Russian flag on it. No one would have dared to touch it . Also they also had cheaper and faster option to Airlift them. Why use Aircraft Carrier and Nuclear submarines for the purpose?

 

[Neil]

If rescue was the main aim they could have sent a normal ship with Russian flag on it. No one would have dared to touch it . Also they also had cheaper and faster option to Airlift them. Why use Aircraft Carrier and Nuclear submarines for the purpose?

bro....they were a super power no one would have dared touch them anyhow then why use enemy's flag...and with aircraft carriers its even more frightening to touch them....
even we sent a warship in 2006 in Lebanon with an Indian flag-what you say about that....??

carriers are used to do rescue mission with spec ops using it as a base...
nuclear subs are alwayz there for carrier protection so....

 

[Parthy]

bro....they were a super power no one would have dared touch them anyhow then why use enemy's flag...and with aircraft carriers its even more frightening to touch them....
even we sent a warship in 2006 in Lebanon with an Indian flag-what you say about that....??

carriers are used to do rescue mission with spec ops using it as a base...
nuclear subs are alwayz there for carrier protection so....

Friend, we had our people in thousands to be rescued and they were airlifted to our carrier. You know Nixon and Henry kissinger were openly threatened India to withdraw forces from North Punjab and East Pakistan. They kept mum after the ceasefire by Indian government.

There were conspiracies that Henry Kissinger and Nixon visited China during 1971 war and urged China to interfere from Arunachal Pradesh.. Thats y they call "Only Nixon goes to China".

 

[Tshering22]

Guys, our friendly past has led to this strategic future. I am not saying that we should ONLY STICK to Russia. I am saying that in critical matters where our stand counts, it is impossible to considerable rely on West because they often deal business-like and ditch in the last moment. The American friendly guys, let me tell you that we're all for good ties with USA as this is NOT cold war. But strategically, it is always Russia that has given us the edge in international say big time and that is something we should never forget. US is subject to serious regime change issues like when Bush was very friendly with India but Obama turned out to be a Sinophile heavily ignoring India.

Even today Russia is the ONLY country willing to share strategic and critical technology that US won't even share with UK forget other partners. JSF squabble is one example. How the NATO left India high and dry in Afghanistan. Then who did we turn to? Russia who again forged an alternative strategic view that PERFECTLY fits India's "Taliban should never return" strategy. And it is natural to have their conditions more favourable to us. Both Russia and India share Asia. Afghanistan-Pakistan is right in the middle of both. Any trouble there, is a menace to both the countries.

 

[SHASH2K2]

bro....they were a super power no one would have dared touch them anyhow then why use enemy's flag...and with aircraft carriers its even more frightening to touch them....
even we sent a warship in 2006 in Lebanon with an Indian flag-what you say about that....??

carriers are used to do rescue mission with spec ops using it as a base...
nuclear subs are alwayz there for carrier protection so....

SO Russians were here to protect their own people. Cannot argue against it. If they were superpower why would they send entire fleet to rescue? they can just airlift them to Russia. That will be much faster and cheaper option. Oh wait may be they planned to give a trip of Indian ocean to rescued civilians. Whether they were here for rescue or Picnic truth is that they saved our a** .