Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[Sancho]

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[Sancho]

The original MRCA in 2004 for IAF was Tejas MK-2 class Mirage-2000-9.

Since you already admitted, that you have no clue about MK2 specs, that statement is baseless to start with. But it gets even worse, when you understand that you "hope" MK2 around 2027 could be as capable as Mirage 2000-5 in 2000/01, when we had the chance to licence produce it.

Isn't it interesting that the people who were saying that GOI going for SEF is a testimony of Tejas's failure. Those people are saying today that cancellation of SEF does not change anything for Tejas.

I don't know on whom you are referring to, but if you stick with official IAF statements, nothing has changed since 2000. IAF still wants a more capable fighters above Tejas and below MKI, no matter if that will be single or twin engine once.

 

[Sancho]

Saab highlights Indian industrial opportunities on Gripen
27 February 2018

As India looks to make some major decisions on air combat capability requirements in the coming few years, Swedish defence group Saab believes the country could become a “complete source” of Gripen fighter aircraft...

...The long-delayed IAF programme was initially thought to be framed by a requirement for single-engine fighters, although this could expand to also include twin-engine platforms. The requirement – yet to be formalised through a request for information (RFI) – is likely to stretch to more than 100 aircraft...

...While Widerström said it is “too early” to discuss detailed industrial plans on the IAF/IN programmes because specific requirements have not been laid out by India, he did stress that Saab and Adani have “expressed a clear ambition to work together” on the Gripen proposals for India.

“Saab has said very clearly that we will deliver to India the complete capacity to design, develop, manufacture, deliver, support, and sustain an advanced fighter capability based on Gripen,” said Widerström.

More at:
http://www.janes.com/article/78185/saab-highlights-indian-industrial-opportunities-on-gripen

 

[Screambowl]

Looks like these things are unending and again all of us will see that India buying not 100+ but just 30 Gripens to keep the friends in sweden happy. I am 200% sure that in no case India is going for f-16s

All of you get ready for all sort of disappointment. The project is already delayed. Since the bisons and old Mig21 started falling they havent been able to decide is it LCA or a new chase for fighters.

And all those people here who are more excited about F35 out of no where but dreams. Hold your balls because in no way it's going to be inducted. Is any one insane in the MoD that they will get it? Easy access of tech is through FGFA not F35. It doesn't require fourier series to identify this.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Since you already admitted, that you have no clue about MK2 specs, that statement is baseless to start with. But it gets even worse, when you understand that you "hope" MK2 around 2027 could be as capable as Mirage 2000-5 in 2000/01, when we had the chance to licence produce it.

Having 'no clue' is definitely your case. And feel i sorry for that.

Anyway AF MK-2 specs circa 2009 has specs closer to Mirage-2000-5 in dimensions. N-LCA MK-2's specs even surpass Mirage-2000-5s. See pics. New AF MK-2 which is said to even sport canards(Saurav Jha is a very reliable source) is obviously gonna be an improvement over N-LCA MK-2 model.

Anyway, the point was if LCA --with it's upcoming varients-- closing on the dimensions of Mirage-2000-5-which IAF considers an MMRCA? Ans. is yes. AF LCA MK-2's thrust is already up and over Mirage-2000-5's while its dimensions even in 2009 concept are closer. In N-LCA MK-2 avatar circa 2015 it's already greater.

Anyone who is following LCA keenly knows where it's heading to. Still, you wanna wait until 2027 to get an idea of what MK2 would broadly look like, do it by all means. In meantime, however, i will enjoy the journey all the way only to say, I told you so, at the end.

Those figures are as official as it gets. Chew it.

AF MK-2 circa 2009 concept

NLCA Circa 2011

NLCA circa 2015

I don't know on whom you are referring to, but if you stick with official IAF statements, nothing has changed since 2000. IAF still wants a more capable fighters above Tejas and below MKI, no matter if that will be single or twin engine once.

I was referring to all those who had tried to discredit Tejas when SEF tender was issued.

As far as IAF is concerned. It wanted the MMRCA when Tejas was only completing TD phase and entering PV phase(pessimists never imagined Tejas to have reached where it is today). SU-30MKIs that it was inducting think and fast then had already turned out be very costly to operate and glitch-prone fighter. So it was natural for IAF to look for a cost-effective fighter which can be procured in numbers. They zeroed on Mirage-2000Hs latest version called Mirage-2000-5 (this is where late Kalam had put his reservation citing Tejas's potential capability vis-i-vis Mirage-2000's). IAF wanted to get it produced in numbers. Dassault was ready to ship the entire line to India then, as Mirage-2000s production had stopped in France. However when Government changed in centre and Congress backed out of Government to Government deal. A general RFI was issued that included fighters as heavy as EF to as light as Gripen(a Tejas category fighter). Which is to say M-MRCA category was never sharply defined citing the weight of a fighter. Still, the preference for a fighter in Mirage-2000 category was apparent and was proven again by Rafale failing at negotiations table and subsequently the issuance of SEF RFI.

Now that a larger version of AF Tejas called MK-2 has been sanctioned the little gap between the original MRCA and Tejas which used to be there then is nowhere anymore. Tejas has even surpassed it. So the developments are shaping accordingly.

All indications suggest that the original requirement of an MRCA is now to be fulfilled with variants of Tejas alone. While in meantime GOI may purchase more Rafales to give meaning to small numbers it acquired previously. Even so, Rafale deal is being used only to masquerader something critical which could be anything between cooperation on SSBN to almost anything.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Govt shelves $10-b single-engine fighter jet deal, to push for Tejas

Move will reduce reliance on imports and keep HAL’s order books flying high

NEW DELHI, FEBRUARY 26

After much dithering the government has finally taken a decision to shelve the $10-billion project on procuring only single-engine fighter from foreign vendors even as it plans to push for Tejas Light Combat Aircraft Mark-2 for the Indian Air Force, which is in dire need of modern fighter jets.

In 2016, the plan to procure imported single-engine warplane got a major push when the Air Force had sent letters to foreign vendors seeking their interest in building a single-engine fighter aircraft in India in collaboration with an Indian player. Finally, the choices narrowed down to US aerospace giant Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Block 70 and Swedish Gripen E manufactured by SAAB.

Both these companies also came out with exhaustive plans under ‘Make in India’ with the promise to set up production units here and eventually transforming India into a global export hub. While Lockheed Martin joined hands to Tata Advanced Systems Ltd (TASL), SAAB announced its partnership with Adani Group for the programme.

However, it seems that the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has now decided that it will not specify the number of engines “inviting unnecessary controversy” by restricting itself to number of engines and only in between a couple of players, sources told BusinessLine.

Keeping in mind the requirement of the Indian Air Force (IAF), the government has decided to push for the home-grown Tejas Mark 2, which is much cheaper than F-16 Block 70 or Gripen E, given the paucity of financial resources even as the government continues to face political heat over procuring 36 French Rafale jets off-the-shelf.

Procurement plan

Apart from this, scrapping the single-engine project will also serve the government’s twin objectives of reducing it reliance on imports thereby strengthening the domestic defence industry and keeping the order books of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) steady, sources said.

The plan is to procure at least 120-150 Tejas LCA Mark 2 for the Air Force, according to sources.

Interestingly, the Indian Air Force, which is in dire need of at least 200 fighter planes, rejected the domestically built Tejas last year. In a detailed presentation to the government, the IAF made a case of procuring the jets only from global vendors.

However, Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman, along with National Security Adviser Ajit Doval, have decided that either the IAF places an order for Tejas Mark 2 or open up the competition to all, much on the lines of the Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal that was floated by the previous UPA government in 2010 in a bid to buy 126 jets. Finally it was Rafale and Eurofighter that were shortlisted.

When contacted the Indian Air Force declined to comment.

Besides, with the roll-out of the ‘Strategic Partnership’ policy the process of procurement has undergone a major change. Unless the policy is fully implemented no big-ticket programme can take off. Moreover, the negotiations also hit a deadlock over the issue of transfer of technology. “We need to have an India-made plane where the design is ours, the intelligence inside the aeroplane is ours while we can source some of the components globally. But importing a whole plane is regressive. We just cannot end up strengthening the foreign aerospace industry while looking down on your own,” said Bharat Karnad, Research Professor in National Security Studies, Centre for Policy Research.

Published on February 26, 2018

 

[Immanuel]

• There is no SEF shortfall. There is an MMRCA shortfall
• Buying F-35 just because it will mean a common fighter for air force and navy is absurd. It will be cheaper if Navy goes for F-18 and IAF goes for Rafale.
• LPD? Navy will have to order F-35B specially for them. Not sure if it is even required. For the carriers, they require F-35C, which will require to be launched from Vikrant. (57 fighter tender is for Vikrant, not Vishal). For Vishal, AMCA-Naval is a better option.
• IAF is looking for a MMRCA, and would be very happy if it could get more Rafale. IAF is not looking for SE fighters.

Unless you have been living under a rock, you will realize that the focus of these exercises is to exchange tactics, experience and for familiarization. The purpose is not to develop joint-warfare capabilities.

Look we are going around in circles here. Lets just agree to disagree.Given that F-35 is just a rumour right now, I don't think we will ever see F-35 in Indian service. Nor do I want to see them here. You want to, 'cause you like fanboying on F-35. Its alright, even I fanboy about Indian products.

Meanwhile, this MMRCA farce will trudge along and prove one, or both, or neither of us wrong.

Incorrect, there is a big shortfall of aircraft, now whether you call it SEF or TEF doesn't really matter. To replace hundreds of Mig-27s and Mig-21s with Rafale is silly. The only Indian aircraft fit for this is the LCA, now let me repeat for the nth time, if an 'imported SEF' is the need of the hr, F-35 is the best choice. I would rather LCA had been ordered for ages in large numbers. I always thought for a long time: total LCA order should be near 350: atleast 60 LCA LIFT for IAF and 20 for IN were needed (these would be used for final stages of training after HAWK). 80 LCA MK-1A for IAF & 20 Navy and finally 100 LCA mk-2 for IAF & 50 for IN. The only way to achieve this is to have multiple lines producing upto 40 aircraft per year with final deliveries coming in 2028, then upgrade the order MK-1A & LIFTs to MK-2 standards. Keep in mind, during my early years of my career I did work on the LCA project, there is perhaps no bigger a fanboy for the LCA here.

AMCA / Naval AMCA is a project that won't be ready with FOC before 2032-2035.
These excercises are not merely for exchanging tactics, experience etc. There are also joint warfare doctrines in place for certain types of strategic missions. Mixed teams of SG/Delta/ST-6/Marcos and recently Alfa-Group & exist that have the key role of going after Puki strategic assets if a threat of regime failure is imminent . Indo-US relations are already a lot deeper than you think or know. Puki nuke assets are on 24/7 monitoring by US/Russia/Israel & India. This information is shared between each other in a real-time basis. All movements to and from these sites are also monitored. This was set-up after the PNS Mehran attack.

IAF should get more Rafales, IAF should take the number to atleast a 100, now in this ideal world Rafale can be bought for IN as well but not sure if this will happen SH block 3 is a formidable contender.

If a new MMRCA tender is sent out I expect F-35 to be offered but let's see.

 

[Screambowl]

If a new MMRCA tender is sent out I expect F-35 to be offered but let's see.

offered without ToT and it has no use for India. Stick with fgfa, unless until its a tactic to pressurize Russians to speed up the development.
I don't understand one thing, why are we even considering f35. US is not going to give India any technology.

 

[WolfPack86]

Finally i got the job at the chennai silk sarees tomorrow is the joining date. I will be not available for 6 days including saturday and sunday. I will be for free one day in a week.:biggrin2:

 

[WolfPack86]

120-150 Tejas Mk II for #IAF? A possibility

 

[Sancho]

Looks like these things are unending and again all of us will see that India buying not 100+ but just 30 Gripens to keep the friends in sweden happy.

Actually if that would happen, the PM would finally have proven crony capitalism! 36 x Rafales for Ambani and 36 x Gripen E for Adani.

Either way, IAF loses.

 

[Sancho]

Anyway AF MK-2 specs circa 2009 has specs closer to Mirage-2000-5 in dimensions. N-LCA MK-2's specs even surpass Mirage-2000-5s. See pics.

Just as I said, you have neither any real source that puts MK2 at the 17t MTOW of Mirage 2000, nor is there any official source, that gave weight or payload specs for MK1A, let alone MK2 so far. So yes you have no clue of what you are talking and just proved it yourself, by using "size comparisons", to conclude that MK2 could be similar to Mirage 2000-5. But does the "size" tell you how much payload increase it has, or which weapons it might carry at which station? An M2K-5 has up to 9 hardpoints, can carry 2000l fuel tanks, a 2000lb Spice bomb, or Crystal Maze cruise missile at the centerline, does your "size comparison" tell you if MK2 can do that too?
An upgraded M2K-5 today has RWR, MAWS and SPJ fully integrated, does your "size comparison" tell you that MK2 will offer the same in 2027?

The answer is always no of course not and that's why you only claim baseless things. In fact all ADA graphics on MK2 showed only the same 7+1 hardpoints, which means, they can only increase the payload to carry heavier loads at the existing stations.
That's common upgrade during the evolution of a fighter and similar to other fighters too (Gripen A to C, F16B30 to B52...). But people who don't understand that Tejas was never meant to compete with MMRCAs, will always come up with made up conclusions, just to pit them both against each other, when the truth is, that IAF wants and needs both for their own requirements. Tejas only needs to be as good as required for a modern light class fighter, while MMRCAs compete each other.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Just as I said, you have neither any real source that puts MK2 at the 17t MTOW of Mirage 2000, nor is there any official source, that gave weight or payload specs for MK1A, let alone MK2 so far. So yes you have no clue of what you are talking and just proved it yourself, by using "size comparisons", to conclude that MK2 could be similar to Mirage 2000-5.


But does the "size" tell you how much payload increase it has, or which weapons it might carry at which station? An M2K-5 has up to 9 hardpoints, can carry 2000l fuel tanks, a 2000lb Spice bomb, or Crystal Maze cruise missile at the centerline, does your "size comparison" tell you if MK2 can do that too?

An upgraded M2K-5 today has RWR, MAWS and SPJ fully integrated, does your "size comparison" tell you that MK2 will offer the same in 2027?



That's common upgrade during the evolution of a fighter and similar to other fighters too (Gripen A to C, F16B30 to B52...). But people who don't understand that Tejas was never meant to compete with MMRCAs, will always come up with made up conclusions, just to pit them both against each other, when the truth is, that IAF wants and needs both for their own requirements. Tejas only needs to be as good as required for a modern light class fighter, while MMRCAs compete each other.

Size comparison and engine thrust itself speaks about the kind of fighter one is being built with it.

Like I said before if you are interested in waiting till 2027. Please wait. If you really want to know how it will look broadly before 2027 by yourself. Do pay a visit to upcoming Aero India and make sure you talk with people at Tejas stall.

In meantime, if really interested in deducing what it may look like. Keenly follow and also, more importantly, educate yourself in matters of fighter aviation. Otherwise, it will be just a waste of time.

Do read this quote, again and again, to deduce it in its totality.

“the team plans to move the wings outboard by about 350mm, increasing the space significantly between the fuselage and the wings. This would immediately optimise load transfer (the ADA has had weight issues with the landing gear) and free up the central fuselage for fuel. ‘We believe the change will free up space for up to 700 kg additional fuel, providing about 22 minutes of additional time on task,’ Balaji tells Livefist.”

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/revealed-the-indian-lca-navys-big-fight-back.html

When Tejas shifted from F-404 F2J to F-404 IN20 it saw an increase in its MTOW by 1.5 ton. Earlier it had MTOW of 12000 and now it has MTOW of 13500 in MK-1 (If someone had taken screenshots from old ADA website he will be able to tell you, mine is no more just like my last laptop). Similarly, when current IN20 will be replaced by F-414 INS6 which has 97 KN thrust there will be a definite increase in MTOW (because MK-2 is also almost a re-designed airframe with better aerodynamics). This increase shall be similar to MTOW of Gripen increasing from 14000 to 16500 in Gripen E.

Now if you chose to believe that despite all those improvements just like others Tejas MK-2 won’t improve much in terms of combat load and range(already stated clearly by Cmdr. Balaji). Then don’t bother. Just wait for 2027. You will know for sure. Maybe you want to extend the date to its FOC's which will come only in 2029.

An M2K-5 has up to 9 hardpoints, can carry 2000l fuel tanks, a 2000lb Spice bomb, or Crystal Maze cruise missile at the centerline, does your "size comparison" tell you if MK2 can do that too?

An upgraded M2K-5 today has RWR, MAWS and SPJ fully integrated, does your "size comparison" tell you that MK2 will offer the same in 2027?

Of those 9 hard points in Mirage 2000, 4x at fuselage are only AAM specific. Two on outer wings are WVRAAM exclusive only.

Anyway, like I posed above. In Tejas MK-2 they are freeing fuselage from landing gear thereby increasing internal volume. That besides, increasing overall dimensions which means greater internal volume than MK-1. With the increase in space how hard it is to understand that apart from RWR(which is already integrated with MK-1 at vertical tail fin) getting both SPJ and MAWS inside won’t be much of a challenge.

The answer is always no of course not and that's why you only claim baseless things. In fact all ADA graphics on MK2 showed only the same 7+1 hardpoints, which means, they can only increase the payload to carry heavier loads at the existing stations.

Ah! Chew these words again.

One more thing that has changed with time is the introduction of Multi-ejector Racks/Rails.Thereby increasing effective no. of stations without any structural change.

Even if i chose to believe a highly unlikely scenario in which despite getting dimensionally larger and longer, getting 97 kn thrust engine (2 kn more than Mirage-2000) and getting a pair of canards, there will be no increase in the number of hardpoints on Tejas MK-2 be it under wings or fuselage. Are you sure that those 5 hardpoints out of 7+1 seen on MK-2 scale models won't be carrying any MER? Considering you have been so rhetorically saying we don't know about the specifications of Tejas MK-2.

BTW below is DRDO developed SAAW. A 120kg PGM in 2x configuration per MER, on a Jaguar. What are the chances that Tejas MK-2 won't be able to carry these on strike missions (to strike as far away as 100Kms from point of its release)?

 

[Rahul Singh]

So yes you have no clue of what you are talking and just proved it yourself, by using "size comparisons", to conclude that MK2 could be similar to Mirage 2000-5

Do yourself a favour. Skip to time 12:17 in the following video and STFU!

 

[Vinod DX9]

So Tejas Mk 2, a new Mirage 2000 we have to use in 2025+ time????? Why not it's like Gripen NG?

 

[Rahul Singh]

So Tejas Mk 2, a new Mirage 2000 we have to use in 2025+ time????? Why not it's like Gripen NG?

It is being compared in terms of dimensions and weight. A Mirage 2000 and Gripen are similar in terms of weight (empty, MTOW etc). In terms of electronics and avionics, they are poles apart. So is Tejas MK-1 from Mirage 2000 let alone future variants of Tejas.

 

[patriots]

it's time to reanme the thread........as imported foreign fighters ....

I have a question . hope u all my gurus will answer.. this...
if govt goes for another procurement.... which. fighter s will participate......

1.Rafale
2.Mig 35
3.Su 35
4.Eurofighter typhoon
5.gripen E
6.F16
7.F18 hornet
8.F35
9.McDonnell Douglas F-15
Eagle
10.jf17(sorry)

or I missed something. .. definitely this will take a long time...........

 

[nongaddarliberal]

it's time to reanme the thread........as imported foreign fighters ....

I have a question . hope u all my gurus will answer.. this...
if govt goes for another procurement.... which. fighter s will participate......

1.Rafale
2.Mig 35
3.Su 35
4.Eurofighter typhoon
5.gripen E
6.F16
7.F18 hornet
8.F35
9.McDonnell Douglas F-15
Eagle
10.jf17(sorry)

or I missed something. .. definitely this will take a long time...........

They wont offer the F 35 just like that. They want us to buy the F 16 first and then will provide the option for the f 35. My view is that we should tell the Americans that if they hope to sell any fighters to India, nothing short of F 35 will do. We dont want their 40 year old designs.

 

[Rahul Singh]

it's time to reanme the thread........as imported foreign fighters ....

I have a question . hope u all my gurus will answer.. this...
if govt goes for another procurement.... which. fighter s will participate......

1.Rafale
2.Mig 35
3.Su 35
4.Eurofighter typhoon
5.gripen E
6.F16
7.F18 hornet
8.F35
9.McDonnell Douglas F-15
Eagle
10.jf17(sorry)

or I missed something. .. definitely this will take a long time...........

If we are thinking in terms of Technical aspects, we should buy 56 Rafale M for Navy and maybe 36 more Rafale for IAF. But if we chose(maybe forced) to think in geopolitical terms. Then it should be 56 F/A-18s for NAVY and maybe 2-3 squadrons for IAF. Which is certain to make IAF very very upset for sure. Navy, however, won't mind getting EMLS, E-2Ds and an active cooperation with Americans on carrier building. Which i wonder what it could be? Becuase Americans are always closefisted especially with respect to ToT.

In any case, this tender has to be joint Navy Airforce to materialise in desired time. If not the same faith will repeat itself in a couple of years for sure.

 

[Rahul Singh]

They wont offer the F 35 just like that. They want us to buy the F 16 first and then will provide the option for the f 35. My view is that we should tell the Americans that if they hope to sell any fighters to India, nothing short of F 35 will do. We dont want their 40 year old designs.

F-35 without ToT is a waste. And ToT is something which will never happen.