If we've to choose between Israel and Iran, choose the former

If India had to choose between Iran and Israel, what should India do?


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ejazr

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@Karthic, the Iran under the Shah was a western puppet. And it was this Iran that sent fighter jets to Pakistan in 65 and 71 wars and supported Pakistan. The Iran after the Islamic revolution while hostile to the US was actually much more pro-India than the "westenised" Iran.
The 1994 veto that Iran did to an OIC sponsored resolution on HR violations in Kashmir also had the backing of the EU and US. The logical conclusions of endorsing this resolution was that this would then pass through the UNHRC. Following which EU and US would apply sanctions on India. Hence Iran vetoing this resolution in the aftermath of the Babri Masjid demolition and the Kashmir insurgency was certainly an act in good faith and IMO something they wanted to do in their own interests because India was working with Iran in Afghanistan where both of us were supporting the Northern Alliance
Another example to show that geopolitics and not religion defines the strategic choices nation states make

Similarly, Israel will go by its interests. If and when Pakistan would realise this point and establish diplomatic relations with Israel, Israel would reciprocate fully. Israeli officials repeatedly say that they don't consider Pakistan as an enemy despite the conspiracy theories floated about in Pakistan. And thanks to Wikileaks we know that Israeli and Pakistani intelligence have co-operation mechanisms on sharing terror information.
This article reporting on Indian journalists visiting Israel basically explains this pov and was reported in the Pakistani press(Daily Times - Israel eying Pakistan as ally in Muslim world)

But that is their right, and just like We have relations with the Saudis, Iranians and Israelis, we would expect Israelis to have relations with us the Chinese and possibly the Pakistanis in the future. We should not expect this to come as a surprise if it happens.


@Tronic
The Saudi Arabia of today is not the same as the Saudis of the 80s and 90s. Just like the US of today is not the same US of the 80s and 90s both of whom took a pro-Pakistan position and created the mess in Afghanistan that later caused blowback for all three as well as a headache for us.
Both the US and the Saudi/GCC countries have become vital allies. The GCC bloc alone accounts for $130 Billion in trade and $35 Billion in remittances with six million expats. In a Iran / GCC comparison, it would be very difficult to discount the Saudi/GCC countries.
Especially when we have recently started serious counter terror and defense ties with the Saudis as well.

The Saudis will continue to have an independent relationship with Pakistan, just as Iran is normalizing its relationship with Pakistan. Infact, it can be argued that in the beginning of this decade, Iran is more close to Pakistan than India while the Saudis are more closer to India than Pakistan in a head to head comparison on economic and security concerns in the region.

Our terrorism issue is only the Pakistan directed and sponsored one. We have no Arabs trying to either direct or bomb Indian interests or cities. And this is despite constant attempts by the Pakistanis to link India with Israel and to exhort Arabs to attack India. So why conjure of a threat that does not exist.


Keeping the importance of the US/Israeli/GCC axis in mind, we will have to curtail our Iranian relationship, but at the same time, we should do our utmost to prevent a military strike and try to mediate between the antagonistic parties to protect our interests in the region.
 

ejazr

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You mean to say that Iran is supportive of India on Kashmir issue where it supports the self determination of Kashmiris. How come this supports India which it has refused to call an intergral part of India. It was Iran that refused P V Narasimha Rao a visit to their country in 1990s.
Actually Narsima Rao visited Iran in 1993 on a state visit with full honors. Possibly the only country that was willing to host after the Babri Masjid demolition.

I also suggest people read this 2002 article by Subramanium Swamy who basically celebrated that strong Indo-Iranian ties that culminated in a defence pact in 2003 after a visit of his own to Iran then. It may sound ironic that a Hindutva advocate BJP party led govt. was cosying up with the Ayatollah led Islamic regime in Iran, but not if you are a realist and don't see foreign affairs with religious blinkers on.
An Iranian sister

Age-old interactions, common security concerns and complementarity of economic interests make India and Iran natural partners. The time is ripe for India to take the initiative to fructify the relationship.

SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY

INDIA and Iran share a centuries-old, close cultural and civilisational experience. The two countries have in the past influenced each other in the fields of culture, art, architecture and language. But most of all, as I found during a recent visit to Iran (February 6-11, 2002), the common people's love for India and admiration for things Indian are profound. Here, the ordinary people are unreservedly and unconditionally pro-India.

This vast reservoir of mass goodwill for India has nothing to do with Iranian foreign policy, but is rooted in the genuine feeling of civilisational sisterhood. However, it is a paradox that at the popular level India has near-amnesia about Iran. Today's Iran is not comparable to the Taliban's Afghanistan. It is a country that is modernising and reforming, albeit at a slow pace. Women in Iran, for example, are much more empowered than those in Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries. They drive cars, and travel without a male relative as escort.

The people of Iran and India have interacted with each other since time immemorial. The continuity of these interactions was broken for a time after the British conquest of India in the early 19th century. Post-1947, there was a perception in Iran that India, though supportive of Iran, seemed to have a tilt towards the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR), Iran's foe. Iran had participated in the Asian Relations Conference convened in New Delhi in March 1947 by non-governmental organisations. At this forum, the Iranian delegate had extended his country's friendship and good wishes for India's Independence. But soon afterwards, Iran-India relations experienced the complex fallout of the Second World War. Iran found itself deeply involved in the Cold War. The Iranian people interpreted communism as a potential threat to the territorial integrity of the state, their social system and to the regime's security. They feared that the Soviet Union had a design to destabilise Iran through its ideological protege, the Tudeh Party, which had close links with the USSR. A definite policy predicated on close relations with the United States, anti-communism and the systematic expansion of Iranian military power was pursued deliberately by the Shah of Iran from that time.

But, despite this ancient link and reservoir of goodwill, the Indo-Iranian diplomatic and political relationship in the modern context began only in the 1960s with Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru's visit to Iran in 1963. But it remained just that - a visit by a voluble Nehru but not much action. Obviously India's tilt to the Soviet Union was responsible for this feeble, sporadic and delayed diplomatic effort to effect an India-Iran compact. Prime Minister Indira Gandhi visited Iran much later in April 1974, but more on commercial grounds, in which the Hindujas played a role. Today the Hindujas are personae non grata in Iran.

While Iran aligned itself with the West, the Indian government after Independence had originally sought not to join one bloc or the other. But Nehru tilted towards the Soviet Union and state-dominated economic planning. India's policy of Soviet- tilted non-alignment and Iran's policy of alignment with the West, determined the parameters of Indo-Iranian relations in the post-War period until 1979 when the Islamic Revolution took place in Iran and the Shah was deposed. The Islamic Republic became virulently anti-U.S., while India under Indira Gandhi and later Rajiv Gandhi progressively softened towards the U.S.

Besides these policies of alignment and non-alignment, there were other factors that determined Indo-Iranian relations from 1947 onwards.

Nehru's endorsement of the pro-Soviet Gamal Abdel Nasser as the leader of the Arab world and of his policies did not go down well with the Shah. Similarly, Nasser's crusade against monarchies and his attempts for the unification of Arab states by means of steps such as the formation of the United Arab Republic (UAR) through the merger of Egypt and Syria, only tended to increase the Shah's sense of insecurity.

The Shah's response to the perceived threats from these challenges came in two counter-moves. First, he sought to use Islam as a counter-ideology to neutralise secular Nasserism. That was why he supported the Islamic bloc. It was because of this that the Shah attempted to organise the Islamic conferences, particularly in the 1960s. Secondly, the Shah intensified his efforts to mitigate Iran's isolation by cultivating non-Arab countries in the region and neighbouring Pakistan. It may be stressed that the Shah's motives in taking an interest in Islamic solidarity and befriending Pakistan were basically political and not Islamic. Thus the Shah cultivated both Islam and Pakistan as a counterpoise to Nasserism and a possible Arab domination of the region. But this affected Indo-Iranian relations adversely.

FORMAL diplomatic relations between India and Iran commenced on March 15, 1950. One year after the formalisation of bilateral relations, Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadeq of Iran nationalised the Anglo-Iranian oil company. But India's reaction to it was equivocal; it advocated the demand that Iran should give up its "unbending attitude". India had not yet acquired the Soviet tilt, and Nehru was a conscientious adherent to the Commonwealth.

Thereafter, regional alliances such as the Baghdad Pact and the South-East Asia Treaty Organisation (SEATO) were also not seen by India with favour, because the Baghdad Pact was instrumental in bringing Iran and Pakistan closer.

Thus the die was cast; there was very little in common between India's pro-Soviet non-alignment and Iran's alignment with the West. That was why for decades Indo-Iranian relations remained confined to non-political spheres such as trade and commerce.

It was P.V. Narasimha Rao who made the landmark move in September 1993 as the first Indian Prime Minister to visit Iran since the Islamic Revolution in 1979. The visit was mentioned by Iranian leader Hashemi Rafsanjani as "a turning point in bilateral relations".

One such manifestation of that turning point was the Iranian invitation to India to attend the Teheran Conference on Afghanistan in October 1996. The invitation was extended in spite of Pakistan's strong objection and threat to abstain from the conference. Pakistan ultimately carried out the threat. In 2001, after the "9/11" terrorist attack, the U.S. yielded to Pakistan and sidelined India in all consultations on Afghanistan. But not Iran.

India and Iran signed on April 10, 2001 the historic Teheran Declaration for the enhancement of bilateral cooperation. The declaration called for the establishment of a broad-based government in Afghanistan and expressed shared concern over international terrorism. It envisages that the two nations would cooperate to fight the menace of terrorism and respect each other's national security interests. There was complete convergence of views on combating terrorism. The two countries showed deep concern over the situation in Afghanistan where the Taliban-controlled areas had become a breeding ground of religious extremism and international terrorism. The declaration also stressed the need for a comprehensive convention against international terrorism being passed at the United Nations. This suggestion came on an initiative taken by New Delhi.

India and Iran share a multi-dimensional commonality of interests. Besides cultural interests, India and Iran have a congruence of benefits in economic and security matters. For example, Iran's large energy reserves can complement India's large energy deficit and India's strengths in industrial and managerial know-how and science and technology can meet Iran's need for the same. Iranians are keen to send their students to the Indian Institutes of Technology. This makes for long-term economic complementarity between the two countries. The gas pipeline is one such example in actualising this complementarity.

During 1999-2000, India's exports to Iran were worth $165.05 million, which represented a mere 4.04 per cent rise over the previous year. The top items of export from India during this period included tea, oil-meal, non-basmati rice, engineering goods, iron ore, basic chemicals and textiles (yarn and fabrics). But India's imports from Iran registered a 106.3 per cent increase, from $485.87 million in 1998-99 to $1,002.53 million in 1999-2000. The top items of import by India included crude oil, pulses, fruits and nuts, sulphur, metallurgical ores, metal scrap and inorganic/organic chemicals.

No wonder then that Iranian President Mohammed Khatami recently described India as Iran's "natural partner" - which sounds much more real and sincere than U.S. President George W. Bush describing India as a "natural ally".

As matters stand today, India and Iran share common security concerns and complementarity of economic interests in respect of three issues: energy, Afghanistan, and terrorism.

IRAN holds the largest gas reserves in the world after Russia and is a large reservoir of oil. It is, therefore, keen to find export markets. India, which has now emerged as one of the world's biggest consumer-importers of petroleum products, is in the best position to receive this natural largesse. India has to ensure its energy security, and hence has to look for long-term partnerships, and it is because of this that cooperation in the energy sector must be on top of the agenda between India and Iran. India's interest has been whetted with the recent discovery of Iran's largest known gasfield, Tabnak, with estimated reserves of more than 400 billion cubic metres.

Such vast reserves have enhanced Iran's position in the world energy market. India has emerged as the world's fifth largest petroleum-consuming, and an increasingly important gas-consuming, country. Since India's domestic production is unable to meet its requirements and the demand for energy is set to rise rapidly in the coming years, India is expected to purchase 20 million cubic metres of gas from Iran annually; of this about five million cubic metres will be in liquid form. The proposed gas pipeline from Iran to India has become the main focus of the relationship and is expected to provide long-lasting mutual benefits to both countries. The supreme leader of Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said that "building a gas pipeline from Iran to India would be one of the several beneficial projects that would cement bilateral ties". In this regard, Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi said that the laying of the Iran-India gas pipeline will contribute greatly to regional peace and stability.

Iran has 5 per cent of the world's crude oil and 14 per cent of natural gas reserves. Its oil reserves are estimated at 88,200 million barrels and natural gas reserves at 23 billion cubic metres. (Russia has reserves of 47 billion cubic metres.)

There are three broad options to transport gas from Iran to India. The first, the cheapest in terms of monetary outlay and the easiest to build, is an overland pipeline via Pakistan (from Iran's Abousaliyeh facilities to Gujarat, through the deserts of Baluchistan). Iran has been seeking Indian cooperation in building this pipeline. The second is a shallow-water pipeline running along the continental shelf of Pakistan and India. Under the Law of the Sea, the laying of pipelines on the edge of the continental shelf requires only delineation permission from Pakistan. The third option is to lay pipelines on the sea-bed from the Straits of Hormuz to the Arabian Sea. This is the most expensive option. There is a fourth option, which is already in place - transporting liquefied natural gas (LNG) by tankers. But while the LNG option sounds safer, the expenses are considerable. Going by 1999 prices, the expenses are in the range of $2 billion for a liquefaction unit, $200 million for an LNG tanker and $500 million for a re-gasification facility, plus the cost of inland pipelines.

Iran and India are currently engaged in finalising the gas pipeline project for the transportation of natural gas to India. In 1993, they signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for the project. But a choice in transmission technology has to be made: to send gas by overland pipeline via Pakistan or via under-sea means? While the cost outlay for an overland pipeline is the cheapest, a more sophisticated, risk-discounted calculation turns the analysis on its head. Then, the seabed route is the cheapest.

In the past three years an Indo-Iranian Joint Working Group (JWG) studied this aspect of energy supplies from Iran to India. Iran had conveyed to India that a deep-sea pipeline was not viable, commercially and technically, and that the only viable option was an overland route running through Pakistani territory. For India, the gas pipeline passing through Pakistan has major security implications. The Indian government is deeply apprehensive that Pakistan might disrupt the supply of gas during a period of military or diplomatic tension between the two countries. Conseq-uently, India asked Iran to ensure Pakistan's commitment for the security of the project, and President Pervez Musharraf gave such an assurance to the Iranian government.

Is that enough, since leaders are mortal? Iran has agreed to provide a sovereign guarantee for the supply of gas. The Iranian government has also promised to give an undertaking to the Indian government that if Pakistan at any point of time cuts off gas supplies to India, Iran will supply an equal amount of LNG to India at the same price. Teheran has also assured New Delhi that it will stop delivery of gas to Pakistan if Islamabad disrupts gas supplies to India.

When Pakistan gave the green signal to the project, India, as a result of increased hostility in the post-Kargil situation, became reluctant to carry its supplies through Pakistan, fearing that these could be stopped in case of an emergency. Finally, Iran told India that the only viable option was an overland route through Pakistan. In response to India's apprehensions, Pakistan assured the Iranian government that it would guarantee the security of the pipeline. A letter from Minister of Petroleum and Natural Resources Usman Aminuddin assured his Iranian counterpart that "Pakistan was prepared to address all concerns of the Indian government in this regard and extend all guarantees they required". Also, at the first ever Economic Cooperation Organisation (ECO) energy conference in Pakistan in November 2000, Pakistan reaffirmed its commitment to allow uninterrupted gas supply to India through a pipeline from Iran.

But then this may become all the more expensive in the long run as New Delhi would need to shell out to Pakistan $400 million each year as transit fee. That is something which should bother New Delhi. Obviously Teheran does not want Islamabad to become a loser, even though Iran has formally endorsed India's stand on international terrorism and the reformist regime of Khamenei has condemned Pakistan on jehadi terrorism. Pakistan is interested in the pipeline in order to overcome the shortage of cash, but then the risk parameters have to be factored in. Teheran has now agreed to a feasibility study on a deep-sea pipeline, an indication that it has accepted India's security concern and that it is really in no mood to benefit Pakistan. On February 23 this year, Pakistan and Iran signed another MoU to undertake the pre-feasibility study for a 2,600-km Iran-India gas pipeline. But the Iranian Oil Minister clarified while signing the MoU in Islamabad that the studies would include an under-sea pipeline project as well, leaving the options open.

Nevertheless, India has to make it clear that it will not accept the option of involving Pakistan in the proposed gas pipeline project with Iran.

At an international conference on India's energy security, organised recently by the Institute of Defence Studies and Analyses, New Delhi, speakers quoted a document published by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) in 2000 to emphasise the need to keep Pakistan out of the proposed pipeline. The document ""Global Trends 2015: A dialogue about the future with non-government experts" says: "Pakistan will not recover easily from decades of political and economic mismanagement, divisive politics, corruption and ethnic friction. Nascent democratic reforms will produce little change in the face of opposition from an entrenched political elite and radical Islamic parties. Further domestic decline would benefit political activists who may significantly increase their role in national politics and alter the makeup of the military."

The document further says: "In a climate of continuing domestic turmoil, the central government's control will probably be reduced to the Punjabi heartland and the economic hub of Karachi." A bit alarmist perhaps, but who can rule it out? The risks are thus enormous from a country where religious fanatics can not only interrupt the pipeline flow but also turn it into a major source of disaster. Fortunately, the technology for the deep-sea route is available. A similar project was completed in the Black Sea recently, raising hopes of the feasibility of such a route, although the Iran-India route would be laid deeper in the seabed, something unprecedented. Both India and Iran will have to raise loans from international lending agencies, which the U.S. may block because Iran is involved. But it will be a test of India's diplomatic skills.

THE rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan in recent years had drawn India and Iran closer in their assessment of the new threats to regional security. Both countries viewed the growth of the fundamentalist Taliban as a threat to the entire region. Kabul's role in drug trafficking and its harsh treatment of the Shia minority generated the legitimate apprehension that it would affect Iranian interests in Central Asia. Iran's media have also accused Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the U.S. of raising an armed Islamic force to encircle Iran. India, too, had made no secret of the role played by the Pakistan-Afghanistan nexus in the so-called Kashmir militancy. Neither India nor Iran recognised the administration of the Taliban fundamentalist Islamic militia, which swept Afghanistan in 1996 and ousted the government of President Burhanuddin Rabbani. Both countries backed the moderate forces represented by the then government-in-exile of President Rabbani and favoured a peaceful settlement through the establishment of a broad-based government with the representation of all ethnic groups in Afghanistan. Events since the "9/11" terrorist attack have vindicated the Indo-Iranian view on Afghanistan. This should be a solid basis for India and Iran to stabilise Afghanistan.

The Kashmir problem had been the main point of difference between India and Iran throughout the period 1950-2000. Teheran had actively supported Pakistan, both within and outside the U.N. It also supported Pakistan during the India-Pakistan wars of 1965 and 1971. Since 1991 there has been a substantial dilution of Iran's stand even if it is ambivalent today. In 1991, during discussions between the leaders of the two countries, Iran agreed that Kashmir was an integral part of India. However, during his visit to Pakistan in September 1992, President Rafsanjani expressed support for the right of self-determination of Kashmiri Muslims. In July 1993, the Indian Foreign Secretary was told by Iran's Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati that Iran would not give any help to separatists in Kashmir and expressed full support for the territorial integrity of India. Iran assured Prime Minister Narasimha Rao during his visit to Iran in 1993 that it had no intention of interfering in India's internal affairs, including in Jammu and Kashmir. During his visit to India, President Rafsanjani pleaded for a peaceful solution of the Kashmir issue through bilateral negotiations between India and Pakistan.

At the ninth summit of the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC) in Doha in November 2000, the member-countries, including Iran, agreed not only to include the Kashmir issue in its resolution but also to impress upon India that the Islamic world cannot ignore the fate of Kashmiri Muslims. In its resolution the OIC called upon its member-states "to take all necessary measures to persuade India to put an immediate end to the violence in Kashmir". It emphasised that the international community must intervene in the Kashmir issue. On November 15, 2000, India rejected the OIC's demand with regard to the violence in Kashmir, emphasising that it was India's internal matter. But recent utterances by Iranian leaders have been quite moderate. They appear to be in favour of India and Pakistan bilaterally settling the Kashmir issue, a stand that is closer to India's. It is also to be recognised that Shia Muslims in Kargil and Ladakh, who have close religious connections with the mullahs in Iran, have always been fervent supporters of India and the Indian Army's activities in the region. Iran has consistently refrained from interfering in India's internal affairs despite OIC resolutions. Even on the Babri Masjid issue, Rafsanjani's speech in Lucknow in 1994 disappointed Samajwadi Party leader Mulayam Singh Yadav.

India and Iran also have common concerns regarding the stability of Central Asia where both countries have developed strong political interests. As India has no direct access to the Central Asian Republics, Iran is its gateway for India to the markets and natural resources of that region. The construction of transport links among Iran, Russia and India will play a crucial role in the context of trade cooperation. It has been suggested by the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FICCI) that India requires a North-South trade corridor running from Iran to southern Russia and Central Asia, instead of via Pakistan, for surface transportation of goods. The corridor, originating from Bandar Abbas, extending to the Caspian Sea, and eventually reaching Russia, has been described by India as an excellent outlet for its goods to the region. Both sides have agreed to encourage businessmen to make better use of the transit corridors through India, Iran, Turkmenistan and Russia. This will expand the role of Iran as a transit route to export Indian goods to Central Asia, the Caucasus and Russia. This point has pleased Iran, which is trying to develop its potential as a regional hub and as a link between the Persian Gulf and the Caspian Sea. India had earlier signed a tripartite agreement with Iran and Turkmenistan. Such treaties enable India to have a land trade route into Central Asia, the lack of which has long constricted the countryinfluence in that region. It is thus my suggestion that the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation be expanded to include Iran and Afghanistan.

PRESIDENT Bush's State of the Union address, in which he named Iran - along with Iraq and North Korea - as part of an "axis of evil" sponsoring terrorism and developing weapons of mass destruction left little doubt in Iran that the U.S. administration's new policy towards the country is strengthening the position of hardline mullahs and weakening that of the reformist President Khatami. Bush's tough talk has prompted the rival factions leading Iran to unite in protest against the U.S. administration.

Why is the U.S. administration stepping up pressure on Iran, especially at a time when it is building the momentum for military action against Iraq's Saddam Hussein? What is amazing about Bush's approach to Iran, however, is that he is weakening the reformist Khatami. Until now the U.S. had joined European nations in the hope that Khatami could succeed in instilling democracy in Iran and opening up the country more to the outside world. Conservative clerics who have influence over the judiciary and other key levers of power have blocked reforms. Is it a fear that a democratic, moderate Iran might destabilise the U.S. ally, Saudi Arabia, and other West Asian monarchies? Bush is a Master of Business Administration from Harvard, hence not stupid.

It appears that the U.S. is adopting a long-term strategy of regime change in Iran. Bush is perhaps harking back to the "Evil Empire" days, when President Ronald Reagan's words were said to have inspired dissidents behind the Iron Curtain. The Bush team hopes to exploit whatever disenchantment there is with Iran's regime, a sentiment which the U.S. thinks was evident during the recent soccer riots and a teachers' strike in Iran.

But this is ultimately counter-revolutionary thinking, especially if Bush's rhetoric ends up uniting factions under a nationalistic umbrella. India should not be a part of this line of thought. It is overstretched to imagine that Iran sponsors terrorism systematically through the Hezbollah in Lebanon against Israel. While in Iran, I made it clear that I favoured warm and close relations between India and Israel for no other reason than that Israel has never done anything to harm India and, on the contrary, has come to India's help at critical times when the Islamic world was ranged against it. But that did not mean that India shares the Israeli or American perspective on every issue. On the same reasoning, India should not let Iran down when the U.S. slanders it as a part of the "evil axis".


Furthermore, neither the Hezbollah nor its patrons in Iran would have much to gain from getting too close to Al Qaeda. In religious terms, the Sunni fundamentalists ranged around Osama bin Laden are anathema to the Shiites of Iran and Lebanon. And while there is no doubt that Iran supports the Hezbollah, Newsweek's sources in Teheran estimate that though this "Party of God" receives $100 million a year from Iran, much of it through powerful religious foundations, the elected government in Teheran and much of the current Hezbollah leadership are trying to distance themselves from terrorist tactics. It is on record that Iran assisted the U.S.-led coalition against terrorism in Afghanistan and helped form the Hamid Karzai government. Iran did it discreetly, not like Vajpayee who bowed and scraped before Uncle Sam, and got nothing in return.

During my stay in Iran, I addressed the reputed Institute for Political and International Studies, the "think tank" of the Iranian Foreign Ministry, and the Department of Government at the University of Teheran. I was also taken by Iranian officials to the beautiful ancient city of Isfahan where I visited a functioning Zoroastrian fire temple (my wife is Zoroastrian). I also addressed the Indo-Iranian Friendship Association, the students of the Indian School that is run with the cooperation of the Indian Embassy (the Principal of the school is a Tamil by name K. Sridharan). In all these places, the thirst for contact with India is not only surprising but even flattering for Indians.

The need today is to build and promote a multi-dimensional collaboration with Iran in matters of trade, security, education and cultural exchange through bold initiatives. There is an immediate and urgent need for an Indian cultural centre in Teheran to promote yoga, ayurveda, music, films and so on, but for some mysterious reason the Ministry of External Affairs is stone deaf to this demand from the Indian Embassy in Teheran. I was surprised at the widespread interest in these subjects amongst Iranians. They even want to meet our swamijis! India messed up bilateral relations in the past. In the beginning it was owing to India's pro-Soviet tilt. Now it is because of its overweening desire to placate the U.S. It is time India now thought of itself as a pole in the multipolar world and cast foreign policy as a pursuit of its national interest without being anybody's junior partner. Iran, placed as it is geographically on the other frontier of Pakistan and being of Shia sub-faith, is India's natural ally in South Asian geo-politics. The moment is ripe for India to seize the initiative to fructify the relationship.
 

ejazr

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Also for supporting Arab league we can ask theri commitment to Kashmir in our favour... So all in all... I dont see why Iran Is a better choice than Israel
The Kashmir issue is like flogging a dead horse now really.

Before the 90s, even the US, UK , EU countries were supporting the Pakistani stand that a plebiscite should be held to decide what Kashmiris want. After all different variations of the same solution had been advocated by UK and US "experts".

Now, almost every country in the world except Pakistan hold this position officially. All other countries say that the Kashmir issue should be resolved bilaterally which is the current US, EU, Arab League e.t.c. view.

Arab League says it cannot be in league with separatists - India - DNA
 

Mad Indian

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The Kashmir issue is like flogging a dead horse now really.

Before the 90s, even the US, UK , EU countries were supporting the Pakistani stand that a plebiscite should be held to decide what Kashmiris want. After all different variations of the same solution had been advocated by UK and US "experts".

Now, almost every country in the world except Pakistan hold this position officially. All other countries say that the Kashmir issue should be resolved bilaterally which is the current US, EU, Arab League e.t.c. view.

Arab League says it cannot be in league with separatists - India - DNA
but sir, we are in agreement on this issue!
 

yhwh

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Actually Narsima Rao visited Iran in 1993 on a state visit with full honors. Possibly the only country that was willing to host after the Babri Masjid demolition.

I also suggest people read this 2002 article by Subramanium Swamy who basically celebrated that strong Indo-Iranian ties that culminated in a defence pact in 2003 after a visit of his own to Iran then. It may sound ironic that a Hindutva advocate BJP party led govt. was cosying up with the Ayatollah led Islamic regime in Iran, but not if you are a realist and don't see foreign affairs with religious blinkers on.

Well, it is true that Iran hosted Narasimha Rao in 1993. I was referring to 1991 when Kashmir struggle was getting bloodier.

We also remember that once, when P.V. Narasimha Rao was the prime minister of India, he wanted to visit Iran, and during those days, the Indian army was playing havoc with the Kashmiri Muslims. So custodial claims were going on, rape was going on, and people were being killed. Extrajudicial killings were being perpetrated on the people of Jammu and Kashmir, and at that time, the Iranian leadership categorically told the prime minister of India: 'Sorry, we cannot allow a person of your standing into our country because your hands are soaked with the blood of Kashmiri Muslims.'

'Kashmiris will continue the struggle until victory' - Tehran Times

Though I am not certain with authenticity of the news item and the views of a separatist leader, i am pretty sure that Iranian had declined the India's External Affairs Minister I.K. Gujral visit in 1990.

Iran pro India stance after Rao started cultivate Iran policy has lot more to do with Shia Sunni conflict that was raging on in Pakistan at that time.
 

Godless-Kafir

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Well, it is true that Iran hosted Narasimha Rao in 1993. I was referring to 1991 when Kashmir struggle was getting bloodier.

We also remember that once, when P.V. Narasimha Rao was the prime minister of India, he wanted to visit Iran, and during those days, the Indian army was playing havoc with the Kashmiri Muslims. So custodial claims were going on, rape was going on, and people were being killed. Extrajudicial killings were being perpetrated on the people of Jammu and Kashmir, and at that time, the Iranian leadership categorically told the prime minister of India: 'Sorry, we cannot allow a person of your standing into our country because your hands are soaked with the blood of Kashmiri Muslims.'

'Kashmiris will continue the struggle until victory' - Tehran Times

Though I am not certain with authenticity of the news item and the views of a separatist leader, i am pretty sure that Iranian had declined the India's External Affairs Minister I.K. Gujral visit in 1990.

Iran pro India stance after Rao started cultivate Iran policy has lot more to do with Shia Sunni conflict that was raging on in Pakistan at that time.
Lot of people here mistake the old Persia which the age old neighbor of India for this Arabian wanna be Mulla Government. These people look down on their own ancient Pagan history. We should work to get these religious thugs out of the way.
 

thakur_ritesh

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Adux,

A late reply and a longish one, kindly bare with me.

Possibility of it being counter productive is a extremely good point. But if we are going for limited strikes and regime change, then there will be people on the ground with enough critical mass to ensure such an outcome
I have followed a few Iranian members on the internet who claim they have been a part of the green revolution/movement, who have vigorously raised voice against the mullah regime, shown the footages and pics of the torture that happened against them at the hands of the police there and post from locations outside Iran, but each time the talk of military strikes on their nuke facilities arises, they tend to get very defensive.

The point they make is, its no one's business to dictate what they should do or not do, they stand to the point that the regime change should only happen through them and through no other means, and no question of their nuke facilities being taken out. Reading such replies does raise a question on the military strikes on their nuke facilities, and to what extent will these people then collaborate with outside forces, if at all.

Though, that remains the only medium of my exposure to Iranians.

I am extremely practical, Ritesh. I completely and totally understand current (stress) USA position. Like it or not, Pakistan have them by the balls. American companies even lost out to European companies in Iraq. That is not how they work. There is something far important to India than some paltry difference in oil prices, ensuring the denuking and splitting of Pakistan. That would add atleast 2-3% to our economy and China will not have it that easy.
Pakistan, and its significance to the US. Well, this is a subject I would like to discuss in a little detail.

Pakistan is by no means going to be divided by the US, had that been the motive, the process would have been ongoing, there is no such thing happening on ground, definitely not at the behest of the US. What one has seen recently on the issue of Baluchistan in the US senate is no more than needling, and definitely no more. And needling by who? Someone who till the recent past used to shout the same about Kashmir, taking a stand against India.

Fact remains, where Pakistan is located, they will be of use time and again to the US. In the immediate foreseeable future in the iran invasion as and when it happens, then Pakistan gives them access to CAR, and Russia and to two of the biggest rising powers, one of which remains the biggest eternal enemy of Pakistan - India and China. The politics of "counter-weight" and "balancing-act" is such that one day it could be of use to us, the other, we could be the victim of it. We stray too much from what we are told, rest assured we too will be on the radar of the US, the most recent, the agitation against the nuke plants in TN and their various human right orgs shouting violation of HR etc, certainly don't need to be overlooked, and this in times which are considered as the friendliest possible, and to man this area, Iran-CAR-India-China, Pakistan under their influence is paramount, and certainly not a broken up Pakistan which will only complicate things more.

A'stan remains a short to at most a mid-term target, long term agenda remains others. If what Leon Panetta has just recently said, then the US is not even looking at this region on mid-term basis. As per Penatta the US troop withdrawal should start to happen as early as 2013, and not even wait for 2014, as earlier stated by Obama, and with that happening the focus will shift to SEA to counter the ever growing challenge thrown up by the chinese, which by the way is making the chinese so nervous, a behavior not witnessed in quite some time, to the extent they are now trying to court India and Japan. This should tell us a little on how the things will pan out in the next few years, and how A'stan will attain a much-much lower profile than it does today.

The important point that favors Pakistan along with strategic location, is its always ready to sell itself, the establishment of the country. They have a price and they will rent out all the possible services they can give under the sun, and on this earth possible. Please think about it, will the US give on such an accommodating client state, ever? Had it not been about India, Pakistan would have fully cooperated with the US in A'stan. If we look from Pakistan's PoV, they have their genuine concerns, and there remain many people in influential people in the White House who understand the Pakistani point and are more than eager to accommodate. Don't forget, prior to his retirement, when Mullen made remarks against the ISI, he also made reference about Kashmir, and highlighted that the violence continues there because India is not deliberating on Kashmir with Pakistan, and violence will continue till the issue sorted. This should give us some idea on how important Pakistan is seen in the US by some, even in these trying times.

If Pakistan ever is to be divided, it will be India's job, and the way the things are, the only other country that could come handy is A'stan, but then for now other than providing ground for training, they don't remain of much use, and this is the main reason why Pakistanis are so scared of A'stan not under their influence, and they will do everything possible to have their way there.

De-nuking Pakistan, wish things were as simple, though the hope remains something will be done about it, but I don't remain too optimistic. If one thing the OBL raid would have taught the Pakistanis, it must be to make sure that by no means something similar happens to their nukes, something about which they remain very paranoid about. Anyways, the scope of such a discussion remains beyond me as I am no expert on the matter, nor do I follow it too closely.

You are being emotional at past transgressions of the US. I am not, because I am sure India plans to transgress on US toes soon.
If the eventuality of a regime change is true and imminent, then being a fence sitter doesnt work for us. But if the status quo is what is going to continue and the current regime doesnt change, there is absolutely no need to change our policy.
Not being emotional. Important is, always keep the past in mind if such dealings are to be done because there will be lessons stored for tomorrow, but that also doesn't mean not to deal with such a power either. Deal and negotiate with them, but on an equal footing, and have your say and extract as much as and when any opportunity strikes itself.

On the point that India will do a flip-flop on Iran, I agree and if past is anything to go by, indeed we will. Will deliberate on it in the reply to the quote below **.

I dont think I get your point, the current Iranian regime is anti-india to a large extend, has not really helped us in encircling Pakistan.
Point of the statement made, which I quote for reference:

No Adux, the key is not about timing. Key remains we list up all our interests in Iran, and negotiate all those with the powers that want us to take sides, and we do a very hard bargain. At the end, country ought to gain the max, that for me is taking a stand, ie taking a stand for the country, and for no one else.
**The key here is not the timing, and I say so because if our stand on iran in the UN, where we have voted against them on 3 various occasions, to IPI, which now is curtailed to IPP, to our U-turn on Syria, to something as recent as committing cut down on our oil procurement from Iran by 10% are any indicators, then it's a given that we will give up on iran sooner or later and not hold on to till the very last. Problem has been that we tend to wither under pressure, and so I apprehend we will do it yet again, and can't resist it till the very end.

Now, when it seems certain that we wont go along with iran till the very last, and will get along with the US at some point, then it gets important that we keep iran on the table today, and start negotiating hard on what is it we will get in return. If the offer from the US is worth it, then we can do a U-turn on iran but buy as much time as possible in the bargain. Its like, have the cake, and eat it too, have we developed such an acumen in diplomacy, I suspect.

My concerns remain on our access route to A'stan and to CAR, and what if there is no regime change by 2013/14, then what? Because then there is every chance that we will land ourselves in a soup, also we will then face quite an agitated Russia, and will find ourselves completely isolated on A'stan and CAR, and will end up looking like fools. I sure think India will do a U-turn, and if so, then we better forget A'stan, and CAR.

If it was for me, I would have stood my ground, withstood all the pressure, all that it might be.

Taliban will come to Afghanistan, if US withdraws. Is India ready to send in troops to Afghanistan to protect our interest. NO. We are too much of pussies for that. So the only way for us to ensure the protection of our interest and contracts to have American troops there, who will ensure taliban will not take over.
Taliban is proxy pakistan, but the US has its logistics running through Pakistan, the only way US has freedom of movement and total will power in Afghanistan, is if its actions are not hindered and tampered by Pakistan, so the only option is Iran. You think without the US WoT, India would even got even one contract in Afghanistan?
I have replied this bit in the points made before. If not do let me know. Points being:

US expected withdrawal from 2013, and not 2014.
Importance of Pakistan to the US. Its importance as a strategic location, and its sell out military leadersihip, and more.

India's NEEDS

US to be in Afghanistan, till Afghanistan can protect itself from Taliban and Pakistan
US need to be out of the clutches of Pakistan, which hinders its action on terrorism and Taliban
Make sure Iran doesnt have a nuclear weapon
Our route to Afghanistan remains open.
As much as we might like but what India needs isn't important, because it is the US' domestic politics that governs the issue here, and Obama having committed that he will bring back his troops ASAP, will not care to listen to India's concern. For Obama the end result isn't as important as winning the next elections. We all know how these politicians are.

It is important in our interest that the US is out of Pakistan, but not in the interest of the US, and now that the US will be headed to SEA, Pakistan in their pocket is all the more important.

Now, if we achieve the above

US without the concern of its logistical chain running through Pakistan, it can take on the ISI
Iran which currently doesnt but can now be made to refocus on Pakistan ( making the Pakistani Army divide its forces to Iran, Afghanistan and India)
Unfortunately we are far from achieving any of the above, and the US isn't too keen to take on the ISI either.

NO you are wrong on that. It had nothing to do with Iran or Russia. It did not even have anything to do with USA-India, it had everything to do with deteoriation of Pakistan- US and Pakistan- Afghanistan relationship
I don't get this, please explain this further.

As far as I recall, the way India was treated back then, and with betrayal written all over, India was pretty much left with no other option but to look at Russia, iran and other CAR member nations, to get its interests back on track in A'stan, and so India realigned itself, else India had all but given up on iran back then.

West may want everything from us, we dont have to give it anything.

If this eventuality, is true that Iran will face a regime change, then there is no point India being a fence sitter or a Iranian supporter
Exactly, and this ought to be the attitude while dealing with them. Precisely the point I pretty much emphasized the most in last post. Things need to be negotiated on our terms, because "need" is at their end, and we should extract the most.

If regime change is a definite, then I agree, and let me quote the very first post I made in this thread, where I highlighted exactly the same thing. For reference:

But if it comes to taking sides, we first need to be convinced that the present iranian regime will be changed asap, we should be looking at definite timelines by when the change will happen, and the side to take will be Israel. Take a side only when we feel absolutely assured that the end of the Iranian mullah regime is inevitable, and is a matter of a month or two, if not less.
But if there is no regime change then what? Let us not just cling on to the solution that there will be a regime change. Let us say there is none, then what? Will like to read your say on that.

Israel will cross it, so will the west. I dont think the west is going to sit there and just go down as hasbeen's especially against some camel jockeys
Agree, if not the west, Israel will do it alone, and I am sure about it. Attack on Iran is a given.

Who is asking to India give anything, India has to be pragmatic. I am saddened that even after repeating how French behaved 6 months before the conflict to Libya, and to take that as an example. You all are simply not to getting and getting into the usual whinefest about how India has always been taken advantage , has done more than share etc etc etc.
Adux, ask yourself, will India stand to the US led pressure till the very last? I remain convinced, no we wont, and so a comparison between India and France is futile. Though, as you suggest, I would like to see such a thing happen, but fact is we are far from it.

PS: ** : reply continued.

PPS: wont be able to revert back soon, but will as and when time permits :)
 

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Well, it is true that Iran hosted Narasimha Rao in 1993. I was referring to 1991 when Kashmir struggle was getting bloodier.
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Though I am not certain with authenticity of the news item and the views of a separatist leader, i am pretty sure that Iranian had declined the India's External Affairs Minister I.K. Gujral visit in 1990.
You are correct to question the authencity of the link because it is nothing but a the text of a speech given by a Pakistani who is spreading his propaganda in the Iranian embassy in Pakistan.

If you knew about Indian history at that time, you would know that PV Narsima Rao became PM in mid 1991 when his biggest challenge was to work with the then FM Manmohan Singh to stave of an economic collapse of India. And IK Gujral belonged to the Janata party and NOT the Congress party of PV Narsima Rao. So he was not even in govt. in the 1991-95 period. PV Rao also kept ministry of external affairs with him and he was both the PM and Foreign minister of India till 93. He was given a red carpet welcome in September 1993 and this was less than a year after the Babri MAsjid demolition and subsequent Mumbai riots in 1993 which saw some of the worst Hindu Muslim violence in recent history. It was much later that PV Narsima Rao gave up the external affairs portfolio to Dinesh Singh and he was made the Foriegn minister.

So the charge is not true. Not only that, in 1994, when the OIC countries supported by the West were ready to pass a censure resolution on Kashmir against India, an Indian military plane landed in Iran where Dinesh Singh who was very sick carried a personal letter from PV Rao, following up on his visit from last year in 1993 and asking Iran to abstain from the vote and hence killing the Kashmir resolution.

Iran pro India stance after Rao started cultivate Iran policy has lot more to do with Shia Sunni conflict that was raging on in Pakistan at that time.
The shia-sunni issue is a background and and an important domestic issue, but it should'nt be exxagerated more than it needs to. Until 1979, Iran was in the US block with a puppet ruler. Iran supported Pakistan as well as US under the Shah of Iran and was hostile to India. At the same time, it had very close ties with ISrael as well. Iran, Turkey and Israel had a collaborative intelligence effort under the Trident organisation to undermine secular nationalist Arab countries like Iraq and Syria which happened to be close allies of India at that point in time.

With the revolution, the domestic politics changed and Iran was out of the western bloc. And logically, it came closer to countries like India, Russia and China while becoming hostile to the US, UK as well as their allies the Pakistanis, Saudis e.t.c. So while post-Islamic revolution Iran has been hostile to the US, it has been much more friendly than the pro-US Shah led Iran. And most people seem to be confused about this. Forget age-old commanality and history and culture e.t.c., these are the hard realities of geo-politics.

The real "flowering" of relations actually started with Iran blocking the Kashmir HR vote against India in 1994. This was followed by close co-ordination in supporting the Northern Alliance particular Ahmed Shah Masood in Afghanistan against the Taliban and finally under the NDA when defence pacts were signed in 2003.

Ofcourse since the UPA came to power, most of these have been negated.

Instead of depending on a Pakistani version of the Indo-Iranian relations, it would be worthwile to read from a former Indian diplomat's view of the same
http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/oct/03spec1.htm
 
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The famous (or infamous) Brzezinski on the possibility of "Iran war".

 
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India warns against 'disastrous' conflict over Iran : Americas News - India Today

Asserting that media has presented a distorted picture of its relations with Iran, India has warned against letting the Iran situation escalate into a "disastrous" conflict and urged peaceful resolution of the issue through diplomacy.

"India's relationship with Iran is neither inconsistent with non-proliferation objectives, nor do we seek to contradict the relationships we have with our friends in West Asia or with the United States and Europe," the Indian Embassy asserted in Washington on Tuesday.

Suggesting that several recent media stories about India's import of Iranian crude oil presented a distorted picture to generate concerns in the US , including among some lawmakers, the mission sought to clarify New Delhi's position and policy towards Iran.

"India has consistently said that Iran must cooperate with the IAEA to address and resolve all outstanding issues about its nuclear program, issues that continue to raise understandable doubts in the minds of the international community," the embassy said.

"India believes that while Iran has rights to peaceful uses of nuclear energy, it must simultaneously and rigorously fulfil the treaty obligations which it has acceded to," it said.

"Our stand in this regard has been, and remains, consistent, well-enunciated including in the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency), and perfectly clear."

"India has scrupulously adhered to the multilateral sanctions against Iran as mandated by the United Nations, and remains fully engaged with the United States Administration and Congress on this issue," the embassy noted.

"Given the imperative of meeting the energy needs of millions of Indians, an automatic replacement of all Iranian oil imports, is not a simple matter of selection, or a realistic option," it said.

"As a responsible member of the international community, India takes its obligations most seriously," the embassy said. "At the same time, it firmly believes that the situation concerning Iran should not be allowed to escalate into a conflict, the disastrous consequences of which will be in nobody's interest."

"As a country that has six million of its nationals in the Gulf region, India is naturally concerned and urges all its partners to give diplomacy a fair chance to seek a peaceful resolution of the issues involved," it said.
 

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Meir Dagan ex-MOSSAD chief must watch interview on how stupid it is to attack Iran. And I tend to agree with his thoughts rather than chicken hawks like Netanyahu or the Republican candidates.

 
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