If India has to go for a two fronts war against China and Pakistan...

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by Sabir, Aug 1, 2009.

  1. Sabru Foxtrot

    Sabru Foxtrot Sabru Foxtrot

    Dec 31, 2015
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    How the Indian Railways (WAG5 HA locomotive) and Indian army working together for us.

    Watch the T90S main battle tank , ashok leyland truck, Maruti gypsy, mahindra jeep and many more in the wagon.

    spikey360 likes this.
  2. spikey360

    spikey360 Crusader Senior Member

    Jan 19, 2011
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    The Republic of India
    China has harnessed the creative force and leapt miles ahead. Let's not kid ourselves and claim that Bharatvarsh can catch up in a decade or two. We cannot, if things remain as they are.
    We should harness the destructive force and keep China always in a state of fear.
    Atcjurvin, sasum and sesha_maruthi27 like this.
  3. sesha_maruthi27

    sesha_maruthi27 Senior Member Senior Member

    Aug 15, 2010
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    Bangalore, India
    It is a
    lts already been started. The nuclear plant which has been built in Karnataka is the starting point....
  4. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle War Mongerer Veteran Member Senior Member

    Apr 29, 2015
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    21°N 78°E / 21°N 78°E
    Rethinking India’s approach towards Pakistan-occupied Kashmir - IDSA

    S. Kalyanaraman

    May 03, 2016

    Kharavela likes this.
  5. PrashantAzazel

    PrashantAzazel Regular Member

    Dec 12, 2014
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    Let's focus on the economy. Lie low until we are indeed a significant world power. Maintain status quo till then.
    This is how China advanced.
    And yes, marginalise the lefties , and extreme right wingers.
    Atcjurvin, itsme, IndianHawk and 4 others like this.
  6. sorcerer

    sorcerer Senior Member Veteran Member Senior Member

    Apr 13, 2013
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    India Builds 'China wall' With Tanks In Ladakh, Jets In Northeast

    by Rajat Pandit
    NEW DELHI: India is slowly cranking up its conventional military deterrence against China along the land border as well as the strategically located Andaman and Nicobar Islands, with the deployment of additional Sukhoi-30MKI fighters, spy drones and missiles in the northeast as well as tank regiments and troops in eastern Ladakh.

    Under the overall plan to progressively boost both military force-levels and infrastructure to address the stark military asymmetry with the People's Liberation Army, the IAF will activate its Pasighat advanced landing ground (ALG) in West Siang district of Arunachal Pradesh on Friday.

    Described as "a strategic asset" capable of operating aircraft and helicopters, the ALG will be inaugurated by junior home minister Kiren Rijiju and Eastern Air Command chief Air Marshal C Hari Kumar. "The ALG will not only improve our response time to different operational contingencies, but also the efficacy of the overall air operations on the eastern front," said an officer.

    While ALGs have also been activated in Daulat Beg Oldi and Nyoma in Ladakh, Pasighat is the fifth ALG to become operational in Arunachal. "While Ziro, Along, Mechuka and Walong ALGs are now operational, Tuting should be ready by December 31 and Tawang by April 30 next year," said the officer.

    Similarly, the government has now approved several infrastructure development projects in the Andaman and Nicobar Command (ANC), which has suffered from politico-bureaucratic apathy and military turf wars since it was established in 2001 as the country's first theatre command, say defence ministry sources.

    India has also begun to regularly deploy its Sukhoi-30MKI fighters and C-130J Super Hercules aircraft, as well as the long-range patrol and anti-submarine warfare Poseidon-8I aircraft, at the ANC, which can act as a pivot to counter China's strategic moves in the Indian Ocean Region.

    But road and rail connectivity remain a major problem along the unresolved 4,057km Line of Actual Control (LAC), which witnesses almost daily "transgressions" by Chinese troops.
    Only 23 of the 73 "strategic roads" identified for construction along the LAC have been completed till now, when all the 73 were to be finished by 2012. Similarly, 14 strategic railway lines remain a mere pipedream, with the government according "in principle" approval for the construction, and undertaking a "final location survey" of four lines so far.

    Kshatriya87 likes this.
  7. sorcerer

    sorcerer Senior Member Veteran Member Senior Member

    Apr 13, 2013
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    Pak is geographically only 300 miles wide :: India's swift Cold Start can cut Pakistan within a day

    It was an unusually warm afternoon in the autumn of 1935. Adolf Hitler sat under a tent, faithful Guderian seated next to him, reviewing maneuvers of tanks and armored vehicles, on the plains of Kummersdorf. Every now and then, he would glance at Heinz Wilhelm Guderian’s classic “Achtung Panzer”, the tank man’s Bible.

    It was early evening when Hitler suddenly rose from his chair. Guderian got up, unsure of what was going on inside Hitler’s mind. Hitler could be extremely temperamental. He looked at Guderian and keeping his hand on his shoulder in an unusually familiar gesture, he said looking at the rolling tanks, “That is what I want – and that is what I will have.”

    German strategic thinking had evolved from the writings of Carl Von Clausewitz, Helmuth von Moltke the Elder and Alfred von Schlieffen. But it was the defeat in the First World War and the humiliating Treaty of Versailles that violently changed German thinking. This violent change brought with it anti-Semitism, National Socialism and a spiritual connect with ancient Rome. In 1933, it catapulted Adolf Hitler to power. The Nazi Party was a one-man dictatorship and drew heavily from the Prussian (German) military masters. When Hitler started rearmament in direct contravention of the Treaty of Versailles, his vision was the Alfred von Schlieffen’s ‘Schlieffen Plan’ and Guderian model of warfare; heavy concentration of armor, fast moving infantry, total air superiority and mass deployment of mobile artillery. Hitler had a galaxy of military geniuses with him – Guderian, Schmidt, Model, Manstien, Rundstedt, Goering, Rommel and many more.

    On 1 September 1939 Germany invaded Poland. So swift and brutal was the assault that the world could only stare awestruck. This was Blitzkrieg, Germany’s “lightning war”. Europe fell to Blitzkrieg and it was this “lightening war” that saw Operation Barbarossa, the German invasion of the USSR. Blitzkrieg was knocking at the doors of Moscow. The Germans never officially used the word Blitzkrieg. Most denied its existence. But the world understood it for what it really was. In the words of the immortal Maj. Gen. JFC Fuller of the British Army “Speed, and still more speed, and always speed was the secret, and that demanded audacity, more audacity and always audacity.”

    India went down a similar path. For too long, we had adopted a defensive posture. Our methods were too straitjacketed and hidebound. Unknown to many of our own generals at Army HQ in New Delhi, the Indian Army’s Sundarji Doctrine of warfare was about to collapse.

    On 13 December 2001, five Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad terrorists armed with AK 47s, grenade launchers, pistols and explosives attacked the Indian Parliament. Nine Indians (Delhi Police, Parliament Security and a gardener) were martyred in the attack. All five terrorists were killed. India responded by trying its hand at coercive diplomacy and launched Operation Parakram. For months, both the Indian and Pakistan Armies stood eyeball to eyeball at the border.

    India could have seized the initiative. India could have done so much more than just sitting at the border for months. But it did not. The holding Corps of the Indian army were ready for battle in 72-96 hours. The three Strike Corps (I, II and XXI Corps) based in Mathura, Ambala and Bhopal respectively, took over three weeks to mobilize and reach their operational areas. And by the time they reached the Pakistan border, Gen. Pervez Musharraf had gone on national TV in Pakistan to condemn the attack on the Indian Parliament and promise that Pakistan’s territory would not be used as a base for terror. The US intervened and put tremendous pressure on India not to launch attacks on Pakistan. Musharraf reduced India’s political justification for war, to zero.

    There is a certain “national mood” for war. And there is a certain momentum. India failed to capitalize on both counts. Both the armies went back to their barracks, with nothing to show for it.

    Indian military thinkers came to the conclusion that the entire Sundarji Doctrine was flawed. You could not have holding Corps in a defending role at the border and attacking Corps deep inside Indian Territory. It was too cumbersome, unwieldy and slow. 21st Century wars required lightening fast reflexes. India needed its army’s attack elements to cross over into Pakistan much faster. We needed to reduce the mobilization time from 21 days to 48 hours. In many ways, we needed to do what Germany did in Poland on 1 September 1939.

    The template was probably the 1967 Arab-Israeli War. Israel fought a vicious six-day war against Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq and Lebanon. And Israel won against a numerically superior enemy, fighting on different fronts. Israel won because they understood that surprise, speed, ferocity and deception win wars. Whether it was neutralizing the enemy air force when it was on ground, lightening armor thrusts through lightly defended gaps or the use of paratroopers, Israel fought like a nation possessed.

    The concept of the 1967 Arab-Israeli War possibly became the core of the new Indian Army warfare doctrine. There were other operations like Desert Storm and Desert Shield, which were dissected, threadbare. This new doctrine stressed on fast moving Integrated Battle Groups, duly supported by the Air Force and Navy. It conceived a war fighting method that would catapult India into full-fledged battle in 48 hours. Someone likened it to an automobile engine, which did not need warming up before moving, an engine that could start at ambient temperature.

    So, they called it Cold Start.

    Cold Start is India’s new war doctrine, which envisions a conventional conflict in the shadow of Pakistan’s nuclear capability and its willingness to use WMDs if threatened. Unlike the Sundarji Doctrine, which was based on massive retaliation and dismembering of Pakistan, Cold Start has different ambitions. It acknowledges the possibility of a limited war and seeks to take advantage of it. Former Chief of Army Staff Gen. V.P. Malik states, “Space exists between proxy war/low-intensity conflict and a nuclear umbrella within which a limited conventional war is a distinct possibility.”

    Cold Start is based on the premise that (even) Pakistan has a nuclear threshold. It will not use nuclear weapons in retaliation before that threshold has been reached.

    Integrated Battle Groups (IBGs) will form the core of this strategy. And the strategy is based on speed, audacity, overwhelming firepower, superior planning and total surprise. IBGs will largely comprise of heavy and fast moving armor, mechanized infantry, artillery and other firepower elements of the army duly supported by Air Force assets like fighter jets and helicopter gunships. In certain cases, the Indian Navy will close-support these IBGs.

    These IBGs may be based in Jammu in J&K, Amritsar and Moga in Punjab and Suratgarh, Bikaner, Barmer, Jaisalmer and Palanpur in Rajasthan.

    IBGs, eight in number and each the size of a division, will make lightening thrusts inside Pakistan, going in 55-80 kilometers. The holding (pivot) corps will carry out limited offensive strikes, while maintaining their defensive posture. Cold Start seeks to attack multiple objectives simultaneously. It is believed that Pakistan’s command and control & decision making structure will come under severe pressure in such a scenario.

    The aim is to seriously degrade Pakistan’s will to fight, inflict severe damage to its war-fighting infrastructure and disrupt their decision-making capabilities.

    Having stated the obvious, it is now time to reflect on a strategy and have related objectives that our policymakers think are achievable by military force. Cold Start may not cleave Pakistan into half, but it has the sheer capability to cause extreme damage, both physically and psychologically. The Pakistanis know this.

    This brings us to two questions that our policymakers must address. One, how do we contain this conflict? All wars have a soul of their own, and amongst the drumbeats and hysteria, its very possible for the government of the day to come under pressure and expand the scope of the conflict. Two, how can we stop it from going nuclear? If either of these two things were to happen, Cold Start would have failed to meet its objectives. The Pakistanis know this, too.

    It will be in the interest of Pakistan to exponentially increase the scope of conflict. They would want it to spiral out of control so that the distinct possibility of a nuclear conflict can horrify the world. Pakistan bases all its adventures on this one fact, and it’s a good policy, too. No country wants two nuclear powers to go to war. Ever since John von Neumann coined the term Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD), a theory based on the assumption that in the event of a nuclear war, both belligerents will cease to be functional nation states; MAD has been accepted at face value.

    So, Pakistan pushes the MAD envelope. India sees Cold Start as a highly effective strategy in the niche grey area between the first terror strike sponsored by Pakistan and MAD.

    “No battle plan survives contact with the enemy”, noted Helmuth von Moltke the Elder. Simply stated, however much planning and detailing you do, Plan A will be so much candyfloss in a desert storm. This brings us to the importance of initiative at the local commander level. The problem with initiative is that the senior commanders have to let go. It is still debatable if that is wise, in such high intensity operations being conducted under the shadow of nuclear war. However, like in all wars, in this case too, devolution will be decided immediately after the first contact with the enemy.

    All war is based on Murphy’s Law, which states, “If anything can go wrong, it will”. Funny? Yes. True? Also yes.

    Pakistan is geographically narrow, with a length of approximately 1000 miles but an average width of not more than 300 miles. If you were a tourist driving an SUV, unhindered, you could start at Jaisalmer after an early 7 am breakfast, stop over for a late lunch at Quetta, Balochistan at 3 pm and be in Spin Buldak, Afghanistan by 6 pm. You would need to refuel your vehicle only on reaching Afghanistan.

    Now you understand why Pakistan is terrified. And now you understand why Pakistan has ignited insurgencies in Punjab (Khalistan movement) and Kashmir. It is always looking for that elusive mirage of strategic depth because wars need land to fight. Pakistan does not have land. But the next best thing is influence. Influence in Kashmir and Punjab give it depth and fifth columnists, Indians who will support Pakistan in times of war. Lack of land is the reason why Pakistan always attacks India first, because it makes better tactical sense to fight a war on someone else’s land. Imagine a scenario in which India’s 3 Strike Corps penetrate deep into Pakistan. Then, it’s either nuclear war or goodbye Pakistan.

    Some experts claim that Cold Start is still in the experimental stages. That’s not true. It may not have been battle tested because that needs a war, but for the past 12 years the Indian Army has been honing it to a fine edge.

    In March 2004, the Indian Army first demonstrated the various aspects of Cold Start in a war game called Operation Divya Astra (Divine Weapon). The aim was to deliver a potent and fatal strike into the heart of Pakistan. The location of the exercise was the famous Mahajan Field Firing Ranges in Rajasthan, approximately 75 kms from the Pakistan border. The scenario comprised of Army and Air Force elements penetrating fixed enemy fortifications. It was a mechanized assault supported by artillery and ground attack aircraft.

    In May 2005, the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force launched a joint exercise in Jalandhar area, about 75 kms from the Pakistan border. The exercise was called Operation Vajra Shakti (Thunder Power). In nine days of simulated attacks and counter-attacks, the Indian Forces were able to penetrate 30 kms into enemy territory and set the stage for the Strike Corps for follow-on deep penetration attacks.

    Just six months later, the Indian Army launched Operation Desert Strike in Rajasthan’s Thar area. The aim of this war game was two fold. One, to synergize XXI Corps with the Indian Air Force, and two, to defeat an enemy (Pakistan) using preemption, dislocation and disruption. 25,000 troops took part in this exercise, which deployed fast moving armor, paratroopers dropping behind enemy lines, fighter aircraft and helicopter gunships of the Indian Air Force.

    May 2006 saw the Indian Army launch Operation Sangh Shakti (Joint Power). This exercise was in many ways a sequel to the May 2005 Operation Vajra Shakti. Ambala based II Corps was the focus of this major exercise. 1 Armored Division, 14 Rapid Division and 22nd Infantry Division war-gamed a scenario in which a lightening thrust through the Cholistan Desert would cleave Pakistan in half. An interesting fact about this exercise was that for the first time the Indian Army dropped the pretense of using the code name Red Land for Pakistan and Blue Land for India. The enemy was Pakistan and the operational brief to the Corps Commander II Corps was to attack Pakistan and break it into two.

    The fifth major exercise designed to test and put Cold Start through its paces was launched in May 2007 in the Rajasthan desert. It was called Operation Ashwamedh.

    I Strike Corps tested its network-centric warfare strategy. In a typical “fog of war” scenario, Operation Ashwamedh was designed to slingshot I Strike Corp into battle. With helicopter gunships providing cover, armored columns moved at unheard of speeds into “enemy” territory. Paratroopers, mechanized infantry units, artillery and infantry provided the thrust. Operation Ashwamedh was an out-and-out offense war game. For one week, night and day, the entire I Corps was the hammer and Pakistan was the anvil. The Indian Air Force provided tactical and close air support.

    At a tertiary level, a few important capabilities were tested across these exercises. Night fighting capabilities, fighting in built up areas (FIBUA), special forces deep penetration strikes etc were tested simultaneously. For example in Operation Divya Astra, combat engineers bridged a 60-meter wide canal, all in 30 minutes. This bridge was capable of supporting tanks and armor.

    Operation Ashwamedh met all its war objectives. Speed was required and so was audacity. I Corps delivered on both requirements, impressively. And I Corps moved at “supernatural speed”.

    The lessons learnt from these war games were imbibed and improved upon again in 2012 during Operations Shoor Veer and Rudra Akrosh, and in 2016 during Operation Shatrujeet.

    The big win in these exercises, apart from other critical parameters, was network centricity. Indian commanders seemed at ease with the latest global technology, and real-time intelligence gathered through satellite imagery and UAVs reduced decision making time, helping the commanders be as flexible as the situation demanded.:india:

    The big loss was inter-services coordination. It still is.

    A war doctrine is effective only as long as it achieves its stated objectives. Simply put, the objectives of Cold Start are to damage and degrade Pakistan’s war machine and severely disrupt its decision-making ability.

    Pakistan has nothing to counter Cold Start with. The best they have been able to come up with are tactical nuclear devices; small nuclear weapons which can be used against advancing IBGs. But Pakistan feels that the world will understand the use of tactical nuclear weapons because they will be used on the Indian Army but inside Pakistan’s territory.

    We must always keep in mind that whatever we do, Pakistan’s first response will always be to exponentially and immediately expand the scope of the conflict.

    That is the flexibility Cold Start must have, to be a scalpel when needed and a broadsword when it must.

    Mjölnir, the legendary hammer of Norse legend had the power to level mountains. But the person wielding it had to be worthy. That was the only condition. Cold Start is fearsome in its potential for sudden destruction, but our policymakers must be absolutely certain, beyond a shadow of doubt, what they wish from this divine hammer.

    As the legendary inscription on Mjölnir declares, “Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor”.

    The next major terror attack will come, and as always, from Pakistan’s soil. That much is certain. There is no stopping it. What will be the construct of our retaliation is a question we must ask ourselves.

    Till then, the hammer waits.

  8. Kshatriya87

    Kshatriya87 Senior Member Senior Member

    Feb 12, 2014
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    Fantastic Article. Gave me goosebumps.
  9. sorcerer

    sorcerer Senior Member Veteran Member Senior Member

    Apr 13, 2013
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    We need such more reliable articles with reality.
    Helps a lot!
  10. sorcerer

    sorcerer Senior Member Veteran Member Senior Member

    Apr 13, 2013
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    Pakistan, terrorists & China: Read how India's superspy Ajit Doval wants to tackle all 3

    It is well known that Ajit Doval has prime minister Narendra Modi’s ear and, by many accounts, a firm hand in shaping India’s foreign policy and strategic responses. It is now common to refer to his approach as the Doval doctrine. What exactly is it? ET pieced together what it could be from the public speeches and interactions Doval has had before and after he became the National Security Advisor.

    The initial bonhomie of the Narendra Modi government with Islamabad having blown off in a spate of cross-border attacks and an escalating conflict in Kashmir, India has rapidly begun a global diplomatic offensive against Pakistan and beefing up its military muscle.

    On Friday, it struck a deal to buy 36 Rafale fighters from France. In the past few months it has been, with Israeli help, developing and testing missiles of different range. Meanwhile, it beefed up strategic cooperation with the US with the signing of the Logistics Exchange Memoranda of Agreement that allows access to supplies and services support to each other’s military.

    While the guns seem to be trained on Pakistan, the developments indicate that India is building strategic depth against China as well, especially in the Indian Ocean.

    Many see national security advisor Ajit Doval’s hand in the strategic shift in India’s diplomatic engagement and military preparedness. The NSA believes India has to be prepared for a two-front war. "India has two neighbours, both nuclear powers (which) share a strategic relationship and a shared adversarial view of India," he said at the Hindustan Times Leadership Summit last November.

    Reproduced here are Doval’s strategy for Pakistan, China and Kashmir articulated in his public speeches and interactions. They have been edited for clarity.

    How to Tackle Pakistan
    February 21, 2014. SASTRA University, Thanjavur, Tamil Nadu

    We engage an enemy in three modes. One is a defensive mode. That is, all the chowkidars (security guards) and chaprasis (attendants) you see outside. If somebody comes here we will prevent him (from hurting us). We will defend. One is defensive offence. That is, to defend ourselves we will go to the place from where the offence is coming. The third is the offensive mode, where you go outright.

    Nuclear threshold is a difficulty in the offensive mode but not in the defensive offence mode. We are working today only in the defensive mode. In defensive offence we start working on the vulnerabilities of Pakistan—it can be economic, internal security, political, its isolation internationally by exposing their terrorist activities. It can be defeating their policies in Afghanistan—making it difficult for them to manage internal political balance or internal security.

    In the defensive mode if you throw a hundred stones at me, I may stop 90 but still 10 would hurt me.

    How to Smother Terrorists
    February 21, 2014. SASTRA University, Thanjavur, Tamil Nadu

    Deny them (terrorists) weapons, funds and manpower. Funding is denied to terrorists by countering it with funds. If they (Pakistan) have got a budget of Rs 1,200 crore and we can match it with Rs 1,800 crore, they (terrorists) are all on our side. They are mercenaries.

    India is a much bigger economy. We will match them money for money, deny them weapons and we will deny them recruitment. That is extremely important. (We have to) work amongst Muslim youth. We have to work among the youth through Muslim organisations. Muslim organisations are willing, and are capable and keen to save their children from their (terrorists) influence.

    We not only have deterrence (against) Pakistan but even (against) the separatists. I have been with an organisation where we maintain a lot of contact with these groups. The Hurriyat or the separatists cannot be paid by the ISI (Pakistan spy agency Inter-Services Intelligence) or influenced by the ISI more than what Indian intelligence or the Indian state can do. We are much more powerful than them. Why is it that they still always tilt towards Pakistan? Why is it that there is no one who is prepared to speak on behalf of India among the Kashmiri Muslims? They cannot as strongly articulate the Indian position. (Because) they are afraid of ISI. They have been given the highest form of security, the comfort, even their medical treatment is borne by the Indian government.

    This policy of appeasement and no deterrence has impelled people to become anti-national and take all the advantages from India. There is no cost involved in that. You can take all advantages and still remain antinational and still undermine India’s national interests. That is the root cause.

    And I can never win because either I lose or there is a stalemate—you start war at your time, you throw stones when you want, you have peace when you want, you have talks when you want. In the defensive offence mode, we will see where the balance of equilibrium is.

    Pakistan’s vulnerability is many times higher than that of India. Once they know that India has shifted its gear from the defensive mode to defensive offence, they will find that it is unaffordable for them. You can do one Mumbai, you may lose Balochistan. There is no nuclear war involved in that and there is no troops engagement. If you know the tricks, we know the tricks better than you.

    Facing China
    August 21, 2010, Universal Brotherhood Day at Vishwa Adhyayan Kendra or Centre for International Studies

    China’s comprehensive national power is about three times higher than India. And in the next 50 years we will not be able to equal it. China is converting its economic power into its military and strategic power at a very fast rate, faster than what we had anticipated. They have advanced their strategic ability build-up by about 10 years. They have become almost a blue-water Navy.

    I think the best strategy for India would be to develop its missile capacity to a very high degree. China is extremely vulnerable today because all its comprehensive national power will be burst if its economic installations are threatened. And as China is progressing at a very fast pace its economic installations are coming up very fast. You know we say what sort of strategic weapons can we use against Pakistan. There is nothing.

    Some cotton and wheat fields, apart from that what is there? Who do you hit? Whereas they can hit a lot of things in India to de-capacitate you. If China understands that India’s missile striking capacity is so much that we can reach Guangzhou, Shanghai and the port areas, that is, within 24 hours their economic capacity would be de-capacitated (it will be a deterrence). India has got to make up its mind to develop its strategic missile capacity.

    Fortunately, I think, there has been a lot of pressure and the government has been going ahead and I think in the last three years there has been considerable progress.

    Second, we still have air superiority over them. We will probably have to make up for the delays that have come up in (buying/developing) the long range and mid-air refuelling planes. There is no point in going for tanks. Tank battles are over. In China, in any case, it will not be there and in Pakistan they may not be required. So let us not go in for the development of MBT (main battle tank) but probably [spend time and money on] light combat aircraft.:facepalm:

    But the most important thing is will you be able to outdo China in some of the selected critical areas of economic activity. We had a serious edge in IT but now they are catching up fast. We had the edge in services with our knowledge of accountancy, law and banking but probably we are losing that edge also. Manufacturing they are already ahead. We will have to think of our entrepreneurs our businessmen, we have to think the new paradigms in which growth models have to operate. Because the goodwill for India, the support for India in this area of activity globally is much more than for China.

    Kharavela likes this.
  11. busesaway

    busesaway Regular Member

    Aug 14, 2016
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    If you think about the main threats that India's external security force has to deal with:

    - Greater Tibet/China (low-level conflict, diplomatic level, can be secured with minimal defense); internal passport and freedom of movement for Tibetans, semi-autonomous Tibetan government shared with China.
    - South China Sea (mid-level conflict, diplomatic level, should be secured with nuclear super-carrier and bases); India should only be concerned with safe passage of cargo ships.
    - North Korea (high-level conflict, ongoing war, should be secured with defense agreements); consult the global community.
    - Middle East (high-level conflict, ongoing war, should be secured with [*]); possible military intervention.

    • A wall along Kashmir border similar to the one along South Korea's northern border.
    • A permanent establishment of India's external military in Kashmir (marines)
    • A permanent establishment of a multi-state paramilitary collation in Kashmir to supplement traditional police
    • Arming all police in Kashmir.
    • A nuclear supercarrier or military base near Crimea for use around the Middle East's Levant area.
    • A permanent airbase in Central Asia, and temporary bases in the GCC.
    • A permanent naval base in Eastern Africa for use in the Arabian Sea and against pirates
    Indx TechStyle likes this.
  12. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

    May 29, 2009
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    After reading comments regarding weapons and tactics on multiple threads I am kind of thinking that discussion is missing something. We need more military professionals to bring in more information and perspective.
    @Kunal Biswas can help us requesting more military men to (retd) to join.

    Winning a War between two equal enemies do not take weapons and tactics not even logistics. These all are given.

    They will be able to overwhelm us is not the possibility. Weapons will be bought, logistics can be replenished at the cost of few battles. A dynamic battle plan will be made, enemy concentrations can be avoided, axises can be changes, IBG can be made more clinical and manoeuvring, etc.

    I mean these all are operational tactics. And no way I am discouraging all good posters who are contributing here with great knowledge and efforts.

    What is missing here is the chance and the timing. Doval is reduced to Modi's clerk and I can not see anything on the ground happening following a script. All we are doing is reacting. We say the nation is at war, but I am sorry this has just become a cliche'.

    The Race is not to the Swift.
    Nor the Battle to the Strong.
    But time and Chance. (Munich)

    Being a reacting not preempting force is a disadvantage, as they are taking their chances and hitting when timing is good. We must start taking our chances and have resources stand by or in an ambush.
    kunal1123, Hiranyaksha and Bhumihar like this.
  13. tamilandhindu

    tamilandhindu Regular Member

    Jul 9, 2018
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    I view the situation as two mega-conflicts:
    • Middle East: I think this conflict is one which the West can be brought in for help solving. It needs to be tougher on Saudi/Gulf money pouring into Pakistan and do more to provide defence for India against Pakistan (we should host a US military base in the Kashmir region).
    • China: I think this one is more low-key, I personally think that the Tibet issue can be solved through diplomatic channels and will most likely involve turning Tibet into a neutral country similar to Bhutan or Nepal (although China wants the fresh water resources of Tibet).
    India should respond to the Middle East issue by building a wall along the Pakistan border and maybe even further east towards Nepal. I think that we should rope in Nepal for help securing our borders and ensure that these areas are well protected.

    Then maybe we should enlist Ann Sang's military commanders for help with the North-West India and Middle East, with most of the Middle Eastern stuff being dealt with by the US and the West.
    F-14B likes this.
  14. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

    Aug 14, 2009
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    Firstly, since when did India need foreign defence help against Pakistan?
    Secondly, host an American military base in Kashmir? Are you from Pakistan?

    Honestly, I can't see how a diplomatic pressure can force Chinese to give up such a large land which possesses the great strategic, political and economic value to them.
    They had no hesitation to wage a war to defend it even in their weakest period.
    HariPrasad-1 likes this.
  15. Angad Singh

    Angad Singh Regular Member

    Sep 16, 2019
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    THE PAK-CHINA STRATEGIC CHALLENGE: Insightful article by Mr Maroof Raza . Source and full article https://saluteindia.org/the-pak-china-strategic-challenge/ :-
    A new dimension to the existing security equation in the subcontinent has been added by President Trump. In his recent meeting with Prime Minister Imran Khan, he indicated that he was willing to mediate over the Kashmir issue if Pakistan was to help America extricate from Afghanistan, as its 18-year campaign to militarily tame the Taliban has failed. This turnaround and the new US-Pak bonding took India by surprise.

    Pak Desperately Needs US Intervention
    Pakistan’s ruling dispensation desperately needed to regain their clout with the US. They needed it in order to balance their current vassal-like relationship with China. The proposed tactic can be broken down into four key points –

    1. Pakistan delivers in Afghanistan, in return for a resumption of military aid
    2. The US helps to push India to the talks’ table on Kashmir
    3. It gives Pakistan a decisive say in the future of Afghanistan
    4. It eliminates India’s role in the war-torn country
    But there is more than meets the eye!

    Even though the US and India are strategic partners, their interests in Afghanistan have often clashed. While the US shoots its way out of Afghanistan, India strangely continues to pour money into it. India also realises that once the US pulls out of Afghanistan, the Pakistanis are going to invite China into Afghanistan. Pakistan alone cannot bear the costs of using Afghanistan for their tactical and strategic moves against India. Moreover, China needs to regulate a post-US Afghanistan to deny the use of that country as a launching pad for Uighur freedom fighters into neighbouring Chinese occupied Xinjiang.

  16. Ra8ul

    Ra8ul New Member

    Nov 27, 2019
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    US is using Pakistan to put fight between India and China. Proof for that is Gilgit baltistan given by British major Brown to Pakistan only border between India,Pakistan and China since Tibet was not annexed by China that time. When China annexed Tibet CIA did some customary operation as its larger plan of India VS China was still in place. Last 20 yrs China was copying technology from US companies like GE,Cisco etc US was quiet as it was as per the plan.When China and Russia are both communist and autocratic why did US companies invest China heavily and not in Russia,they made China so rich that are proud race take pride in their achievement. If today Russia, China and India come together NATO would be inconsequential now any triad between these countries will be on Chinese terms not equal terms between each other purpose served and game over. West is running this world India, Russia and China are where they ought to be by West as per their interest.

    There are more people reprised in Tibet and a larger land mass but why USA only talks about Taiwan. Because grand plan has been set by the west the made China rich because it is aggressive and they hope that China will make the first move have better off India and vice-versa.

    Pakistan origin terrorist like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed master mind of 9/11 is still in US custody not executed waiting for natural death. Hakkani network, Taliban all worked against USA intrust but US says Iran is the biggest terror sponsor nothing Iran did on US soil at all there are suicide bombers of pakistani origin arrested proactively non from Iran. Three of the bombers were British-born sons of Pakistani immigrants; Lindsay was a convert born in Jamaica responsible for London Bomb attack in UK. Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal had been sexually abused in Rotherham between 1997 and 2013 by predominantly 90% British-Pakistani men. 19000 children have been identified from various locations in UK like Rochdale,Oxford,Bristol,Aylesbury,Peterborough now interesting part have a look at the news headlines they never say pakistan but Somali are mentioned. Some of the headlines.


    If Pakistan was not important to them they will not go to this length to protect it i am sure US and UK intelligence agency are involved in it. Trump said Pakistan is our good friend may be they are may be not who knows?.

    Osama Bin laden assassination Black hawk tech to China

    After Osama was assassinated in Pakistan as one of the stealth Back hawk was damaged US forces destroyed the chopper and left. US intelligence says that later Pakistan gave away the wreckage to China for reverse engg. Now after this incident US forces conducted drone attack on Pakistani soil but they did not have the leverage to ask Pakistanis to send the wreckage back in the next flight to US. US left Black hawk intentionally so that it can win the trust of China should say US improvised later not part of initial plan.

    Solutions to two front War:

    US-India relationship: India can not balance China without being 3/4th of their economy we are 1/5th now. Then why did USA remove GSP status and developing country tag to India because we are doing a big deal. China already has a deal and it is buying large amounts of crude from US. That is the reason Saudi and Russia are playing good police bad police as US and China are doing. China might be buying crude fixed rate enough to keep jobs in US going but they throw mud on each other to show it to the world. But China and Russia are friends will Russia loose market share in China ?.India is also likely to increase its consumption of US shale oil which is good but with a trade agreement with interest of India.

    Only way to keep deterrence against China is if it knows Russia and India will attack together on two borders. If China wants to play 1+1 = 1 then we also can play the same. Let China know all the Infrastructure it has created over 20 yrs will be destroyed Bridges,elevated corridors,High speed railway network, Road infrastructure not High value assets and bring Chinese economy to its knees our advantage we do not have much infrastructure any ways comparatively. And budget sharing of defense manufacturing by Russia and India anonymously only PM and Putin should know about it no one and transact in gold only if USA does give raw deal to India on trade front.

    Hope Indian Navy is training dolphin's to identify submarines and may be suicide attacks from dolphin's and pigeons the way technology is going even swarm drones can not penetrate air defense with lasers and hypersonic missiles. If we send high EMP and stop electricity to India no modern missile can penetrate reason US is developing 1000 miles artillery.
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2020
    muzzies slayer likes this.

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