IDN TAKE: Why India Should Buy the F-35 Lightning II

[Kharavela]

F-35 cockpit ergonomics and sensor fusion will definitely be next gen but the same can be adapted to our existing fighter fleet. Just because your minivan has a fancy dashboard with expensive upholstery doesn't mean that it's better than my bare essentials sports car.

You nailed it, buddy.
F-35 is a fighter which can't TURN, can't RUN, can't CLIMB, can't FIGHT.

Leave alone Su-30 MKI, let F-35 beat Mig-29 of IAF in one-to-one fight.

 

[Zebra]

.........................................

You nailed it, buddy.
F-35 is a fighter which can't TURN, can't RUN, can't CLIMB, can't FIGHT.

Leave alone Su-30 MKI, let F-35 beat Mig-29 of IAF in one-to-one fight.

So at the end of the day, basically what is the point for spending a fortune on T-50 / PAK-FA / FGFA.....?

 

[A chauhan]

Do appease the US too buy 25-30 F-35 VTOL version ! :biggrin2:

 

[Pulkit]

Even IAF is not happy with FGFA's so-called thing like promised stealth and each and every Russian platform always has issues of high maintenance cost and that is also not good for our IAF .

What about that.....!

And one question..... can India get S-500 at the same time when Russians forces gets it .....?

The question I asked is not answered but is responded by another question.
Kindly find my response below:
Yes IAF is not happy with how FGFA is progressing .
FGFA is yet to be achieved.
T-50 stats is what they are unhappy with.
Still a lot of changes asked by IAF are to be made.

T-50 in current position is still better a great option.

people here supporting F-35 fail to understand that FGFA or T-50 or PMF will be in certain % our own where as F-35 will be alien.

F-35 has received criticism in all the ally nations who have ordered it.



in regard to S-500 there is not much information for me to comment

 

[Pulkit]

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So at the end of the day, basically what is the point for spending a fortune on T-50 / PAK-FA / FGFA.....?

F-35 which is there has a lot of disadvantages and t-50 yet to be completed has few advantages.
Design: F-35 is bulky as it has been stated it cannot turn climb etc on the other hand T-50 is highly maneuverable .

cannot comment on any other factor yet but based on that T-50 appears to be better.

 

[Zebra]

F-35 which is there has a lot of disadvantages and t-50 yet to be completed has few advantages.
Design: F-35 is bulky as it has been stated it cannot turn climb etc on the other hand T-50 is highly maneuverable .

cannot comment on any other factor yet but based on that T-50 appears to be better.

The question I asked is not answered but is responded by another question.
Kindly find my response below:
Yes IAF is not happy with how FGFA is progressing .
FGFA is yet to be achieved.
T-50 stats is what they are unhappy with.
Still a lot of changes asked by IAF are to be made.

T-50 in current position is still better a great option.

people here supporting F-35 fail to understand that FGFA or T-50 or PMF will be in certain % our own where as F-35 will be alien.

F-35 has received criticism in all the ally nations who have ordered it.

in regard to S-500 there is not much information for me to comment

If I consider this was your question ------->

i just do not understand how can u even suggest f35...

Then this is the reason why I suggest F-35 ................ watch this video ................

 

[pmaitra]

You nailed it, buddy.
F-35 is a fighter which can't TURN, can't RUN, can't CLIMB, can't FIGHT.

Leave alone Su-30 MKI, let F-35 beat Mig-29 of IAF in one-to-one fight.

B-52: B for Bomber.
F-16: F for Fighter.
A-10: A for Attack.
F/A-18: F and A for Fighter and Attack.

F-35, by nomenclature, should be a fighter. However, it just cannot fight. One wonders why they even call it F-35. For JSF, Joint-Strike Fighter, the first two words, Joint-Strike is correct. It can be an attack aircraft. A-35 would have been appropriate.

 

[Chinmoy]

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So at the end of the day, basically what is the point for spending a fortune on T-50 / PAK-FA / FGFA.....?

Here I would like to give you a scenario. We all know that how much our immediate neighbour China is investing on development and trial of J-20 or how much Russia is banking on PAK-FA. Both of them are Fifth -Gen fighters with stealth and the so called invisibility cloak draped over them. As I did posted earlier in another thread and all of us know, there is nothing like invisible aircraft as far as stealth is concerned. It means all these 3 fighters would have a nearly equal RCS and RADAR visibility.

Now in case of confrontation, be sure that it would be J-20 or in extreme bad luck case T-50, which would play a front running role to disable your air and area defence capability. That means you cant send your MKI's to take care of them because of their stealth and the vulnerability your air superiority fighter would be against them. You would be scrambling your F-35s. Now if we consider that all of these share the same level of stealth, it means none of them would be visible to each other at BVR range i.e., the fight would be fought at VR. Now in this case, you want a fighter which is super maneuverable and which is able to carry on with old days dog fight.

Is F-35 compatible with it? Going by what F-22 has achieved against F-16 in dog fighting, anyone would be skeptical. Moreover the major selling point of the fighter has been its STOL and stealth. But as I mentioned above, as far as fighter is concerned, you can't simply bank on stealth alone to win battle or a war. We do need a mix of maneuverability for old school dog fight and stealth to be able to take the fight to enemy. Here I think PAK-FA does have a upper hand till now on F-35.

 

[manutdfan]

Here I would like to give you a scenario. We all know that how much our immediate neighbour China is investing on development and trial of J-20 or how much Russia is banking on PAK-FA. Both of them are Fifth -Gen fighters with stealth and the so called invisibility cloak draped over them. As I did posted earlier in another thread and all of us know, there is nothing like invisible aircraft as far as stealth is concerned. It means all these 3 fighters would have a nearly equal RCS and RADAR visibility.

Now in case of confrontation, be sure that it would be J-20 or in extreme bad luck case T-50, which would play a front running role to disable your air and area defence capability. That means you cant send your MKI's to take care of them because of their stealth and the vulnerability your air superiority fighter would be against them. You would be scrambling your F-35s. Now if we consider that all of these share the same level of stealth, it means none of them would be visible to each other at BVR range i.e., the fight would be fought at VR. Now in this case, you want a fighter which is super maneuverable and which is able to carry on with old days dog fight.

Is F-35 compatible with it? Going by what F-22 has achieved against F-16 in dog fighting, anyone would be skeptical. Moreover the major selling point of the fighter has been its STOL and stealth. But as I mentioned above, as far as fighter is concerned, you can't simply bank on stealth alone to win battle or a war. We do need a mix of maneuverability for old school dog fight and stealth to be able to take the fight to enemy. Here I think PAK-FA does have a upper hand till now on F-35.

Amen brother! This is the final nail in the coffin of this long drawn debate.

PAK FA will always shred F-35 to pieces PERIOD. This puts the all the flimsy pro F-35 statements to rest.

Seriously it's like spoon-feeding someone with kid gloves. Why are the same questions being repeated over and over again? So much concrete evidence has been posted on this very post itself against each and every myth of the F-35. Still the same stubborn baseless and totally false arguments every time! Don't they ever carefully read what's been posted by other members against the F-35 or is too difficult to comprehend.

I hope this thread has been an eyeopener to all those who blindly believe in the American marketing machinery. I'm always up for a good debate but frankly the all the pro F-35 arguments have been exhausted and are now becoming repetitive.

 

[Immanuel]

TELL ME AN ESTIMATE ....
current budget close to 40 billion...
half goes for salaries which is gonna increase due to OROP...
out of remaining half 60% goes to already purchased weapons machinery...

remaining 40% is left for maintenance and buying new weapons....

we have already planned...
100Tejas MK1
~100 FGFA
thats airforce
then we have army and navy....

Army is planning FMBT and navy is planning more subs and not to forget A/c carrier.

then we have LCH and LUH also waiting.

Our defense budget grows by say 10% per annum then also it will be very difficult to meet these how can u think of F35.

Sorry forgot to mention AMCA.....


i just do not understand how can u even suggest f35...
the ally nations are also not happy with the stealth promised and maintenance cost is also high which is not good for our IAF.

For the longest time I have been saying that a defense budget which is roughly less than 2.5% of GDP is no where near enough. We need to raise that number to at least 5% of the GDP which means more than double what it is now and increasing in the future as the economy expands. Well my wishful thinking aside, IAF for sure won't buy the F-35. However, the IN will certainly buy 2 sqds of F-35B if Juan Carlos is chosen as the LPD. IN will also buy another 2 Sqds F-35Cs for the INS Vishal.

We can eventually expect a fleet of around 80 F-35 in the IN. The unit price and life cycle costs for the F-35 aren't higher than the Rafale.

As for complaints etc., its all relative. Rafale for instance was superior in all its competitions but only managed a couple of export orders, even in India, it has become a highly irrelevant purchase. So no program is perfect, no one is asking to order the F-35 now but order FOC versions which will have all the issues ironed out.

Eitherway, unit cost of the F-35 is still than less than 100 million. We can have customized versions like the Israeli's. Actually if its good enough for Israel, should be good enough for us.

 

[Shirman]

People here are underestimating F-35....according to a person i know and trust top rank 5th Gen stealth figher around the world right now are:-
1). F-35
2). F-22
3). Su PAKFA/FGFA
4). J-20....
PAKFA Deal with Russians wont be cancelled because the tech coming from it and Rafale F3R will play and shape up AMCA development...PAKFA, J-20 when inducted into their service in the future will match F-22. F-35 and F/A-18 Advance Super hornet were offered by USA (to counter Russian FGFA offer to us) but were rejected primarily after looking at Pakistani F-16 Sanctions Saga and dubious role that US plays in Indian Subcontinent/ South Asia mostly related to Politics and their Perceived Interest but still I think even after Tejas Mark 1A and 36 Rafale IAF and its Chief think there is a space for Second similar type of Mrca. The tech that will come online from 2020 onwards on PAKFA and F-35 is more important to me ie- Russians KRET is working on Photonic based AESA and F-35 on integrated Photonic skin information flows through Skin structure of F-35 by Lockheed Skunk works as shown in this video

 

[Kharavela]

However, the IN will certainly buy 2 sqds of F-35B if Juan Carlos is chosen as the LPD. IN will also buy another 2 Sqds F-35Cs for the INS Vishal.

Perhaps your statement is an INSULT to collective intellectual ability of Indian Navy. Because, among the three services, IN is the most matured one & stresses on indigenous capabilities. Therefore your wishful thinking would remain just that - Wishful.

Mind my words, IN would rather favor NLCA for INS Vishal.

Actually if its good enough for Israel, should be good enough for us.

Israel doesn't have (friendly) neighbors militarily as capable as China & Bakistan. Israel doesn't have to field its forces in extremes of Leh & Siachen. Israel doesn't have to defend 15000+ km land frontier & 7500+ km coastline.

 

[Kharavela]

You nailed it, buddy.
F-35 is a fighter which can't TURN, can't RUN, can't CLIMB, can't FIGHT.

Leave alone Su-30 MKI, let F-35 beat Mig-29 of IAF in one-to-one fight.

.........................................
So at the end of the day, basically what is the point for spending a fortune on T-50 / PAK-FA / FGFA.....?

India is willing to spend a fortune on T-50 / PAK-FA / FGFA because:
It can TURN, can RUN, can CLIMB, can FIGHT

 

[charlie]

India is willing to spend a fortune on T-50 / PAK-FA / FGFA because:
It can TURN, can RUN, can CLIMB, can FIGHT

F35 can turn, it can run, it can climb, and it can fight, it's an awesome aircraft and it's suits well within nato's future doctrine in mind.

There were flaws in the beginning, there are flaws that are being worked on like any other aircraft.

Let's not just blindly trust what journalist or so called experts say.

I agree with you that India is doing right by going for T-50 but you don't have to show F35 is a failure which it is not by anyway.

India navy & airforce might have gone for F35 in case US agreed for TOT but US will never do that.

 

[Zebra]

Here I would like to give you a scenario. We all know that how much our immediate neighbour China is investing on development and trial of J-20 or how much Russia is banking on PAK-FA. Both of them are Fifth -Gen fighters with stealth and the so called invisibility cloak draped over them. As I did posted earlier in another thread and all of us know, there is nothing like invisible aircraft as far as stealth is concerned. It means all these 3 fighters would have a nearly equal RCS and RADAR visibility.

F-35 is not good as per DFI super duper experts and it become useless and J-20 become matter of concern......!

Great, what next for DFI.....!

The reality is Russian air force has already reduced their order for fifth gen aircrafts.

Now in case of confrontation, be sure that it would be J-20 or in extreme bad luck case T-50, which would play a front running role to disable your air and area defence capability. That means you cant send your MKI's to take care of them because of their stealth and the vulnerability your air superiority fighter would be against them. You would be scrambling your F-35s. Now if we consider that all of these share the same level of stealth, it means none of them would be visible to each other at BVR range i.e., the fight would be fought at VR. Now in this case, you want a fighter which is super maneuverable and which is able to carry on with old days dog fight.

If a MKI become vulnerable against J-20 , then I wonder what will happen when our DFI's resident super duper aircraft experts wanted to send Mig-29 against F-35.

And you don't see any difference among Northrop Grumman and other Chinese and Russian manufacturers. Don't you......!

US has already made few of fifth gen aircrafts as of today, where as Chinese and Russians are new in it.

Is F-35 compatible with it? Going by what F-22 has achieved against F-16 in dog fighting, anyone would be skeptical. Moreover the major selling point of the fighter has been its STOL and stealth. But as I mentioned above, as far as fighter is concerned, you can't simply bank on stealth alone to win battle or a war. We do need a mix of maneuverability for old school dog fight and stealth to be able to take the fight to enemy. Here I think PAK-FA does have a upper hand till now on F-35.

Ever you heard something like 'first see first kill' terms in air combat.......!

When Indian defence portals talked about F/A-18 in early days of MMRCA tender, they also published these words in their articles -----> 'nothing dare to come near this aircraft'.

I am not sure about you, but I still remember I read it.

And that was for F/A-18, forget about F-35.

 

[Zebra]

F-35 which is there has a lot of disadvantages and t-50 yet to be completed has few advantages.
Design: F-35 is bulky as it has been stated it cannot turn climb etc on the other hand T-50 is highly maneuverable .

cannot comment on any other factor yet but based on that T-50 appears to be better.

Does the developer companies know that their product has a lot of disadvantages....?

If they already know it then there must be something in it which helps the aircraft to finish its given task as per the mission.

Better wait for sometime.

 

[Pulkit]

Does the developer companies know that their product has a lot of disadvantages....?

If they already know it then there must be something in it which helps the aircraft to finish its given task as per the mission.

Better wait for sometime.

I Did say that to comment further we need to wait.

But something which has been done in terms of design and shape cannot be reversed .

They aimed at making an aircraft fit for all services which in ideal situation is impossible .

In effort to make that happen they made it a lot bulky to fit everything which was available.

They expect it to use in BVR scenario and not in combat scenario.

the stealth can save it but till how long is the question.

which the development in the field of Radars I doubt even a decade will pass when it will loose its ability to hide aswell...

on the other hand T-50 has stealth and maneuverability .

talk to any aero guy .on first look only they will tell you it is not aerodynamic in shape....

 

[Pulkit]

For the longest time I have been saying that a defense budget which is roughly less than 2.5% of GDP is no where near enough. We need to raise that number to at least 5% of the GDP which means more than double what it is now and increasing in the future as the economy expands. Well my wishful thinking aside, IAF for sure won't buy the F-35. However, the IN will certainly buy 2 sqds of F-35B if Juan Carlos is chosen as the LPD. IN will also buy another 2 Sqds F-35Cs for the INS Vishal.

We can eventually expect a fleet of around 80 F-35 in the IN. The unit price and life cycle costs for the F-35 aren't higher than the Rafale.

As for complaints etc., its all relative. Rafale for instance was superior in all its competitions but only managed a couple of export orders, even in India, it has become a highly irrelevant purchase. So no program is perfect, no one is asking to order the F-35 now but order FOC versions which will have all the issues ironed out.

Eitherway, unit cost of the F-35 is still than less than 100 million. We can have customized versions like the Israeli's. Actually if its good enough for Israel, should be good enough for us.

in terms of budget I can tell you we are in no position to have 5% of GDP spent on defense .
on contrary why do we need two 5th gen aircrafts (FGFA and F35) when we are ourselves planning one of our own?

Even if we acquire them all then also we will have so many platforms that they will become a burden on us in long run.

Kindly share the source from where are you quoting per unit price ....

yes Rafale was a useless option ... it is still useless....

 

[Pulkit]

F35 can turn, it can run, it can climb, and it can fight, it's an awesome aircraft and it's suits well within nato's future doctrine in mind.

There were flaws in the beginning, there are flaws that are being worked on like any other aircraft.

Let's not just blindly trust what journalist or so called experts say.

I agree with you that India is doing right by going for T-50 but you don't have to show F35 is a failure which it is not by anyway.

India navy & airforce might have gone for F35 in case US agreed for TOT but US will never do that.

Agreed when you say it meets Nato's future doctrine which is BVR .
From the very starting it was aimed to meet requirements for all the forces which ideally cannot be met as there are many extremes.

not trusting anyone blindly but simple aero knowledge after spending 4.5 years in aerospace industry(I m no expert)
It is bulky ,it has a large cross section, its lacks speeds and acceleration are few points .

The stealth coating is too expensive and vulnerable.
the panel is so thin that a bullet can pass.


I doubt airforce would have gone for it .... Navy cud have.

 

[Zebra]

India is willing to spend a fortune on T-50 / PAK-FA / FGFA because:
It can TURN, can RUN, can CLIMB, can FIGHT

It can TURN, can RUN, can CLIMB, can FIGHT.

Still Russian air force are not buying many of those.