IDN Archives: Why India Should Dump The FGFA Project?

I am otm shank

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Come out of 1971 this is 2016. Achievement of 1971 victory goes to Indian Army and leadership of that time i.e Indira Gandhi and Russia is not giving us anything for free. As for the their Junk, it will only be call as Junk.


So keep your lecture to yourself.
India fought and keeps itself secure to this day with Russian 'junk'

yes the indian army deserves first and foremost the credit of splitting pakisalafiland in two but The indian armed forces no matter how great and brave they are could not win the war fighting with sticks and stones . nor could India stand up to nuclear blackmail while having none. there's a reason Indira signed the friendship and cooperation agreement with Russians. it was for their nuclear umbrella which Russia delivered when India was threatened by us and UK with nukes.

you're right nothin is free but when India couldn't afford to pay cash for their 'junk' the Russians let India barter for advanced technology like migs in exchange for agricultural products (which the IAF still uses today) to Russia'a detriment. so India did have to pay something but it was in India's favour.
 

Filtercoffee

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India fought and keeps itself secure to this day with Russian 'junk'

yes the indian army deserves first and foremost the credit of splitting pakisalafiland in two but The indian armed forces no matter how great and brave they are could not win the war fighting with sticks and stones . nor could India stand up to nuclear blackmail while having none. there's a reason Indira signed the friendship and cooperation agreement with Russians. it was for their nuclear umbrella which Russia delivered when India was threatened by us and UK with nukes.

you're right nothin is free but when India couldn't afford to pay cash for their 'junk' the Russians let India barter for advanced technology like migs in exchange for agricultural products (which the IAF still uses today) to Russia'a detriment. so India did have to pay something but it was in India's favour.
Sir, if i may ask how are you so adamant in spliting an article about fact in terms of losses and gains my country has, are you really sticking with you timeline; or something you feel hasnt been completed from our end for your long hop?
 

Indx TechStyle

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There was transfer of blueprint, not of any hard technology to make the rocket engine like material, fuel etc. Plus AMCA and FGFA have different funding, they will not eat each other.

The HAL failed to absorb the technology . Making materials for such manufacturing is difficult but even when supplied the technology, home made MKI are twice the foster and take twice the amount to build. The same problem haunts lca, the carbon fiber is imported, the canopy is imported, engine is imported and most probably radar will be imported. It time to reform the hal
Bhai, point toh mera valid hai phir bhi.

We hardly be getting any real technological expertise even after funding FGFA. Russians will hardly give us any and we will hardly copy something.
 

Bahamut

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Alok Arya

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You mean they gave us superalloy?
No , they give us manufacturing process of first generation scb , by applying this process to a indigenous superalloy of nickle drdo lab develop a second generation scb of 100 *c better durability . Generation of scb usually differ in each other by 70 to 100 c in durability . A third generation scb will be suffice to reach to 110 kn Kaveri if other thing such as all blisk stage , wide cord blade , high transonic low pressure stage etc etc managed .
 

I am otm shank

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Sir, if i may ask how are you so adamant in spliting an article about fact in terms of losses and gains my country has, are you really sticking with you timeline; or something you feel hasnt been completed from our end for your long hop?
Stating history is not splitting facts. To this day India relies on Russians for advanced technology. yea other countries are willing to sell platforms to India TODAY but it was Russia that treated India like they were not inferior when it mattered

if you believe in karma ( not saying you should or need to ) loyalty to friends brings good Karma and ungratefulness is sin that we atone for.
 

Filtercoffee

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Stating history is not splitting facts. To this day India relies on Russians for advanced technology. yea other countries are willing to sell platforms to India TODAY but it was Russia that treated India like they were not inferior when it mattered

if you believe in karma ( not saying you should or need to ) loyalty to friends brings good Karma and ungratefulness is sin that we atone for.
When it mattered you pussied out of a real fight, specific to you flag. Then you vented someone else on the thread. Now what is your pupose here? You need to know what mainland is all about. Its all interconected, staged and further reading would tell you better about military strategies and movements ; :drool:.
 

I am otm shank

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When it mattered you pussied out of a real fight, specific to you flag. Then you vented someone else on the thread. Now what is your pupose here? You need to know what mainland is all about. Its all interconected, staged and further reading would tell you better about military strategies and movements ; :drool:.
where did I shy away?

my purpose here is to learn more about my culture, religion and the people that share it while sharing my opinions. if I'm wrong I don't mind accepting that.
 

I am otm shank

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TPFscopes

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The 8th prototype will be primarily used for testing the aerodynamics, airframe and flight characteristics taking over the T-50-1 and T-50-2 while weapon testing can be expected to be conducted on other aircraft.

The remaining Phase II air frames, -09, -10, -11 and -12 will then be followed by the T-50S-1
 

lcafanboy

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Russia cannot give India sophisticated Stealth Technology


On Mar. 9 the Times of India reported that Delhi is making extra demands to Moscow when it comes to the joint production of a Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Citing sources in the Indian Defence Ministry, the report said that India would go in for this joint venture only under the condition of a full-scale technology transfer and if Russia provided help in the development of the indigenous Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

According to the paper, the Indian side bases such demands on the experience of the Sukhoi-30MKI jet acquisition programme, which cost India Rs 55,717 crore ($8.4 billion) without any “tangible help in developing indigenous fighter-manufacturing capabilities.” The recipient company Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) is still unable to manufacture the Sukhois on its own, the paper noted.

RIR asked experts to explain whether Indian demands were justified and where the real problem lay.


‘Red line’ in technology transfer ::

Without a doubt, there are some limitations on the extent to which a country would transfer its military technology, experts believe. According to Alexander Ermakov, expert at the Russian International Affairs Council (RIAC), this especially concerns critical types of technology that influence the ability of a country to ensure its security: most importantly missile technology, communications and electronic warfare systems.

The limitations always vary depending on the client. While bilateral relations do play a role, it is also important for a partner to “bargain” for certain technology, Ermakov thinks.

“If Indonesia, for instance, makes a request to Russia for a batch of 8-12 Su-35 multi-role fighters, it is unlikely that Moscow would discuss any technology transfer,” Konstantin Makienko, Deputy Director of the Moscow-based Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, explains. “On the contrary, when China bought 48 Su-27 aircraft in early and mid-1990s, this allowed for an opportunity to transfer this technology to China within a licensed production contract.” The larger the amount of requested supplies, the better is the chance for discussing potential technology transfer, Makienko believes.

Trading technologies is also much easier for a country like Russia when a partner shares the same geostrategic and military interests and there is a history of past fruitful cooperation. India is in the best position here, unlike Pakistan, which Makienko calls “unstable and unpredictable and to an extent, an analogue of Ukraine in South Asia.”


Privileged partnership with India ::

While India is enjoying a privileged status among Russian partners, there are obstacles that hamper it from producing Russian defence technology using its own industrial capabilities.

“Moscow puts no limitations whatsoever on military technology transfer to Delhi,” Vasily Kashin, senior research fellow at the Moscow Based Institute for Far Eastern Studies and at the Higher School of Economics, told RIR.

He says it is the ability of India to pay for a certain technology and localize it that determines the scale and effectiveness of such cooperation. The problem with the Su-30MKI case is that the progress is not happening as fast as planned due to difficulties in local industrial production, lack of skilled labour and low adherence to technological requirements.

Kanwal Sibal, former Indian Foreign Secretary and Ambassador to Russia (2004-2007), acknowledges that this problem does exist.

“India has failed to develop an indigenous defence manufacturing industry even though its defence requirements are huge,” Sibal told RIR. “We are at times the largest importer of arms in the world. This is absurd for a country that is faced with major security challenges. The Russian connection has given us advanced arms but not the capacity to build them on our own.”


Make jointly ::

In this respect, India is lagging behind China which has been successfully localizing and modernizing acquired technologies. If Russia decides to seriously opt for joint development and production of military equipment and accept more interdependence, it would be a game-changer for India.

Makienko thinks this is a natural step in the evolution of defence cooperation between the countries, which started in 1962. “Now we should move toward joint projects and joint development of new technologies and we should, in fact, talk about the promotion of the ‘Make jointly in India and Russia’ brand,” he says.

While Sibal echoes his view, he also warns that learning to work within the current Make in India programme might be hard for Russian firms. “This will be a challenge for Russian companies as the model so far has been to deal with public sector units in India through government to government agreements,” he told RIR.

Overcoming these obstacles would bring the sides closer to more interdependence and make joint ventures such as the FGFA more large-scale.

“The FGFA programme was conceived to give India access to critical design capability. If that happens to the degree expected, it would be a major breakthrough for the future,” Sibal says.
http://www.defencenews.in/article/Russia-cannot-give-India-sophisticated-Stealth-Technology-251027

@sayareakd @Indx TechStyle @Kunal Biswas @all
 

lcafanboy

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Russia announces deepest defence budget cuts since 1990s
Craig Caffrey, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
16 March 2017


Figures released by the Russian Federal Treasury have confirmed that Russia's defence budget has been cut by 25.5% for 2017, falling from RUB3.8 trillion (USD65.4 billion) to RUB2.8 trillion.

The reduction represents the largest cut to military expenditure in the country since the early 1990s.

The reduction follows an extended period of large increases to Russian defence spending with growth having achieved an average rate of 19.8% a year since 2011 in nominal terms. Despite the cut, the 2017 budget will remain about 14.4% higher than the level of defence spending seen in 2014 in nominal terms.

The Russian government initially outlined plans to reduce defence expenditure in the draft of the three year budget for 2017 to 2019 released in October 2016.

http://www.janes.com/article/68766/russia-announces-deepest-defence-budget-cuts-since-1990s

HUGE 25% cut in defence expenditure by Russia.

Now the question is would Russia be able to complete PAKFA on time or not and could we get FGFA on time or not?
And can Russia let go Indian funds and participation in it PakFa & FGFA development?
 

IndianHawk

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Now the question is would Russia be able to complete PAKFA on time or not and could we get FGFA on time or not?
Both of them are already delayed. Budget cuts won't much affect PAKFA because ruAf already committed to very low number of planes . And this is the flagship for Russian defence industry .

It is the engine which will sink PAKFA and FGFA:bounce:
 

tharikiran

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