IAF to build its own trainer aircraft: Air Marshal Kanakaraj

ladder

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2013
Messages
7,255
Likes
12,207
Country flag
IAF to build its own trainer aircraft: Air Marshal Kanakaraj

Project expected to be operational by 2015-16

The Indian Air Force is all set to independently manufacture its first aircraft and the task has been entrusted to 11 Base Repair Depot (BRD) of the Head Quarters Maintenance Command (MC) in Nashik, a top IAF official said.

"It will be a trainer aircraft. Though manufacturing of the aircraft is going to take some longer period, the step initiated by the IAF will be a milestone," Air Marshal P Kanakaraj, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Maintenance Command, told reporters on the eve of IAF anniversary.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which was manufacturing the fighter aircraft for armed forces, was overloaded with indent and therefore IAF has decided to go for manufacturing indigenously at its Nashik BRD, Kanakaraj said.

"The IAF has taken a refitting, overhaul and refurbishing on a massive scale and 40 aircraft were assigned to Ukraine and 60 at the BRD at Kanpur. 28 aircraft out of 40 on Ukraine assignment were completely refitted and two are on way of completion. The remaining ten aircraft will also follow," he said.

Air Marshal said that due to the disintegration of the erstwhile USSR, India suffered a lot in the maintenance field.

"Now IAF has gradually overcome the difficulty in procuring the components. We faced problems particularly in Su-30 aircraft repairs as the supply units were spread over Russian blocks," he said.

According to Kanakaraj, the IAF has made a quantum jump in the maintenance of equipment with the signing of e-MMS (electronic maintenance management system) with IT major Wipro at a cost of nearly Rs 950 crore.

The project is expected to be operational by 2015-16 and the Maintenance Command plays a major role in handling the maintenance philosophies of all inventory in the IAF, he said.

Replying to a query, Air Marshal Kanakaraj denied any "direct" involvement of the IAF in anti-Maoist activities in some parts of central India. "We are only in the support system and not directly involved," he added.
IAF to build its own trainer aircraft: Air Marshal Kanakaraj | Business Standard

=============================================================================

The specification of the Trainer aircraft is not provided but if it rivals HTT-40 then it is probably the reason for the tooth and nail opposition to HAL HTT-40.
 

ladder

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2013
Messages
7,255
Likes
12,207
Country flag
News article from Jan 2012

'IAF to get 75 microlight gliders for NCC cadets'
New Delhi: NCC cadets would soon get exposure to flying as the Indian Air Force is procuring 75 microlight gliders to train them for aviation-related adventure activities, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal (ACM) NAK Browne said o Tuesday.

"We are getting many new microlight gliders. So they will get more hands-on training for not only the NCC activities, it will give them some exposure to the IAF (also)," ACM Browne said on the sidelines of a NCC function.


He was responding to a query on the measures being taken by the IAF for improving training of NCC's Air Wing cadets.

"At least by the time they (NCC cadets) get selected and they come to the IAF, they are that much more experienced. 75 micro-light gliders are in the pipeline," he said.

The Air chief said this training will also improve the standard of adventure activities of NCC which trains school and college students for a career in armed forces.

Earlier, he told the cadets that the IAF is eagerly waiting for youngsters with the quality to join it as pilots.

"You all must work hard and I am quite sure many of you will join the defence forces. After meeting you, I can say that the country is in safer hands with so many spirited youngsters eager to wear the uniform," he said.

Air Chief Marshal Browne today visited the NCC Republic Day camp here and interacted with the cadets who are participating in the month-long activity.

He was accorded an impressive Guard of Honour after his arrival in the camp area by the cadets drawn from all the three wings of NCC.

Later, the Air chief visited the Flag Area to witness the colourful tableau of various socio-economic themes by state contingents and addressed them.
`IAF to get 75 microlight gliders for NCC cadets`


====================================================================================
Maybe Air Marshal was indicating about designing and manufacturing these trainers.

ps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_microlight_aircraft_competition
 
Last edited:

jmj_overlord

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2013
Messages
694
Likes
156
new new projects.........but may become stuck like lca, lch, amca, etc. Till then maybe the solution is imports
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,834

ladder

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2013
Messages
7,255
Likes
12,207
Country flag
It is not the time to play games in a desperate attempt to get a PVSM!
That statement was only my observation. It may turn out that the trainer aircraft may be different category ( microlight trainer) than HAL HTT40. And manufacturing it at BRD may be it is a genuine attempt seeing the diverse work load of HAL.

But ACM N.A.K Browne's statement that IAF can develop MMRCA within 20yrs at and by its BRD is a statement which can have serious implication.
 
Last edited:

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,834
That statement was only my observation. It may turn out that the trainer aircraft may be different category ( microlight trainer) than HAL HTT40. And manufacturing it at 11BRD may be it is a genuine attempt seeing the diverse work load of HAL.
My post is not indicative of yours.

It is independent from all posts.

Microlight , however cannot be a trainer.
 
Last edited:

Waffen SS

New Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Messages
492
Likes
348
Hope air force will have success but what is wrong with HTT 40? It seems great. So according to @ladder it will take another 20 years to develop.:boring:

I ask what is wrong with Pilatus PC-7:wat:



Microlight planes better suit in amature Flying clubs not in Air force though.:p

How can a microlight plane compete against HTT 40?

How ever good for NCC.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ladder

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2013
Messages
7,255
Likes
12,207
Country flag
Stuck at the basics of aircraft design
ANIL CHOPRA
We could import basic training aircraft and release HAL resources to work on the next level.

The Indian Air Force needs to take a call on how it is to acquire a new set of trainer aircraft, balancing indigenisation concerns with practical considerations. There is a considerable degree of conceptual confusion here.

It took over a decade to decide on and acquire the Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT). The British Hawk Mk 132 finally entered service in the IAF in early 2008 for advanced jet training.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd built basic trainer HPT-32 was being used for initial training for years.

However, it had repeated engine failures. When two experienced instructors were killed in July 2009, it triggered the permanent grounding of the aircraft. India very correctly decided on a fast-track acquisition of the Basic Training Aircraft (BTA), selecting the Pilatus PC-7 Mk II from among five contenders.

The aircraft joined the IAF early this year. Some 75 aircraft have been contracted, with an option to buyg 38 more.

In 2009, it was decided that HAL would design and build 106 basic trainers. The ground position today is that after just displaying a mock-up at an Aero India exhibition, there is no viable design proposal by HAL. The issue of whether the remaining BTAs should be indigenously developed or procured from abroad came into the public domain after a report in the media implied that the IAF was trying to scuttle the development of the BTA by HAL. These articles indirectly pitted the Defence Ministry, the IAF and HAL against each other.

HAL-IAF CONNECTION

The fact is, the IAF is proud to fly indigenous aircraft. The IAF trained its pilots on HAL-built HT-2 aircraft till it was replaced by HPT-32 in 1984.

The IAF was also happy with the HAL-built Kiran jet trainer, an aircraft with which it flew its showcase aerobatics team, Surya Kiran.

The bulk of IAF's inventory comprises HAL-produced aircraft. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), and the Medium Transport Aircraft (MTA) programmes are fully backed by the IAF.

Any attempt to bring about a rift between the IAF and HAL is neither reasonable nor in the national interest.

Aircraft take time to design, develop, produce or procure. The HAL Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) has also been running way behind schedule. Any further delay in the IJT may force the IAF temporarily into two-stage training with Pilatus and Hawk aircraft when the aging and overextended Kirans retire.

CALL ON BTA

In this context, the time has come to take a call on further basic trainers.

The IAF has no choice but to seek more tried and tested Pilatus PC-7 Mk II.

Another issue is whether the IAF should have two different aircraft as its basic trainers. It would involve two sets of flying instructors, technical personnel, infrastructure, simulators, training aids, spare inventories, among other things. The duplication will cause significant extra expenditure.

On the other hand, a single type is better from the operational, maintenance and logistics point of view. If timely decisions are not taken, the IAF's basic and intermediate training may get seriously hampered.

A large part of the yet to develop HAL basic trainers will have to be procured from abroad. We do not have expertise on turboprop engine, ejection seat, and a large number of other systems. Even the aircraft design itself is likely to be through foreign consultancy.

When many parts of the so-called indigenous aircraft are imported, as in this case, the cost will naturally be much higher than the imported variant.

The UK-built Hawk aircraft cost us Rs 87 crore vis-à-vis the HAL-built one at Rs 98 crore. The cost increase for indigenous Su-30s was much starker.

OPERATIONAL LOGIC

It may be in the national interest to licence-produce the PC-7 Mk II in India if numbers were to go up significantly.

The delivery time-frames to the IAF should remain non-negotiable. HAL could thus concentrate all design and development energies on the intermediate trainer without affecting the IAF's training requirements.

People keep making repeated references to the navy's control over dockyards and shipbuilding compared to the lack of IAF control over HAL's activities. The IAF has a large number of base repair depots of its own which are engaged in overhauling, upgrading and assembling aircraft and aggregates.

These personnel are on IAF's payroll. Spare capacity can easily take on licence production such as the Pilatus PC-7 Mk II. Man-hours saved could bring down costs substantially and allow HAL to concentrate on the IJT.

The repeated references to grounding of the HPT-32 fleet vis-à-vis not grounding the MiG-21 lack operational logic. One is a basic training aircraft flown by novice pilots, and the other an operational aircraft flying combat exercises.

The country requires some minimum deterrence and war fighting capability. While we await the LCA, surely we do not want the IAF to become smaller than its Pakistani counterpart overnight?

In this competitive world it has become common for the manufacturer who doesn't get the contract to hire people to pull down the winner.

Having served on technical oversight committees, I can say the processes on this count are fairly streamlined.

All specification changes at all stages follow a proper logic, and are well documented and approved at various levels.

The HAL and IAF both function under the Ministry of Defence. The IAF is a near captive customer of HAL.

Strengthening the IAF's presence in the HAL management at all levels should greatly improve both output and understanding. It is time to put the nation first and not let a good aircraft and IAF training be made hostage to extraneous issues.

(The author is a retired Air Marshal and former head of the IAF's HR and Training.)
Stuck at the basics of aircraft design | Business Line

==============================================================================

So, here's catch IAF wants to licence manufacture Pilatus PC-7 MK-2 at 11 BRD Nasik.
 

ladder

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2013
Messages
7,255
Likes
12,207
Country flag
Hope air force will have success but what is wrong with HTT 40? It seems great. So according to @ladder it will take another 20 years to develop.:boring:

I ask what is wrong with Pilatus PC-7:wat:


Microlight planes better suit in amature Flying clubs not in Air force though.:p

How can a microlight plane compete against HTT 40?

How ever good for NCC.
ACM N.A.K Browne stated IAF shall be able to develop MMRCA category combat jet within 20 years


IAF hopes to build its own combat aircraft within 20 years | Mail Online
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Blackwater

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
21,157
Likes
12,211
IAF to build its own trainer aircraft: Air Marshal Kanakaraj


in 30 yrs:rofl::rofl::laugh::laugh::laugh:
 

venkat

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
907
Likes
203
Blackwater I am happy that atleast there is one in this forum who understood this as a joke!!!:rofl:
 

jmj_overlord

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2013
Messages
694
Likes
156
the govt should encourage this project for iaf to build it's own aircraft than relying always on HAL. This might motivate HAL to complete their projects on time.
 

ersakthivel

Brilliance
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,762
Country flag
Before trying to build trainers and other fighters, IAF should know to how to give future proof ASR well in advance anticipating the future retirement of fighters or trainers to to HAL or ADA.

In 2009, it was decided that HAL would design and build 106 basic trainers. The ground position today is that after just displaying a mock-up at an Aero India exhibition, there is no viable design proposal by HAL. The issue of whether the remaining BTAs should be indigenously developed or procured from abroad came into the public domain after a report in the media implied that the IAF was trying to scuttle the development of the BTA by HAL. These articles indirectly pitted the Defence Ministry, the IAF and HAL against each other.
IAF also did not show any interest when HAL on its own volition came forward with a mock up of a new trainer named HTT-35,after the IAF grounded HTT-32 in the 1990s itself.. But for more than ten years IAF did not show any interest in giving fresh ASR while smugly rejecting the HTT-45.

IAF waited until 2009 to give an ASR for HHT-40 trainer , WHY?


In many instances it periodically changed the ASR . For example IAF could not finalize ASR for AMCA from 2000 to 2009. Also despite the statements by DRDO chief V.K.Saraswat about LCA mk-3 , with tech developed for AMCA, IAF hasn't responded till now,

Why?


The Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd built basic trainer HPT-32 was being used for initial training for years.

However, it had repeated engine failures. When two experienced instructors were killed in July 2009, it triggered the permanent grounding of the aircraft. India very correctly decided on a fast-track acquisition of the Basic Training Aircraft (BTA), selecting the Pilatus PC-7 Mk II from among five contenders.
I also doubt the real reason for grounding HTT-32. The reason given by IAF that it was done due to engine failures is patently false.

Because engine is an imported one and flying well on many trainers abroad. HAL did not make the engine.

they grounded the trainer before trying to rectify the so called engine problem,
IF they have so much capacity that they can design trainers and even a combat fighter in 20 years. Why didn't they try to set right the so called "engine or fuel pump" problems of the grounded HTT-32?

It is a scam for IAF to allege that HAL which is building and exporting ALH is not fit to design and build a basic trainer, that too with a proven foreign engine.

Boeing builds and delivers a passenger plane every 3 days, South korean shipyards deliver 100 giant container ships every year. So instead of investigating this problem and allocating enough resources to HAL and ADA, IAF is simply diverting the focus from real issues by foraying into its own manufacturing of planes.

IF HAL is plagued by delays there is no guarantee that IAF will build them at rocket speed. Needless duplication of efforts will lead to more wastge of resources and we will end up with more TATRA truck like scam, where even after 5 decades most of the parts are imported by public sector PSU and palmed off to Army i the name of indigenous product while bleeding forex reserves.

If HAL can not design and build a fighter , IAF too won't be able to do it. If they did it will end up like TATRA truck with imported stuff assembled here bearing a new name with forex out go , with no oversight and huge lifecycle cost all in dollars.
 
Last edited:

Sridhar

House keeper
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2009
Messages
3,474
Likes
1,061
Country flag
IAF to HAL: Build Swiss trainer aircraft, don't develop your own

"IAF had invited HAL to manufacture the balance PC-7 Mk II required by IAF under license in India. However, in their own interest HAL declined to participate in license manufacture of the PC-7 Mk II."

Turned away by HAL, Browne bizarrely claimed during the Air Force Day functions on October 8 that the IAF's base repair depots (BRDs) - set up to maintain and overhaul aircraft and engines - could also build aircraft. The IAF chief declared, "The 14 base repair depots (BRDs) have grown in both capability and capacity in a manner that the day is not far when it will be able to develop its own medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA)."

A reality check was quickly provided by the IAF's maintenance chief, Air Marshal

P Kanakaraj, who admitted that assembling aircraft "(would) be a quantum jump in the working of the maintenance command"¦ We are bound to make mistakes initially, so pilot-less aircraft are an ideal platform to start off."

Asked to comment on whether BRDs would now build Pilatus trainers, the IAF responded: "No decision has been taken on manufacturing the trainer aircraft in Base Repair Depot. As and when any decision is taken at a later stage, you would be informed."

IAF to HAL: Build Swiss trainer aircraft, don't develop your own | Business Standard
 

ersakthivel

Brilliance
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,762
Country flag
God knows what intentions are residing in the mind of our present airchief when he supports Pliatus with such brave heart intentions!!!!!!!!!!

Is he the IAF chief or Swiss Air force chief?
 

Decklander

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2012
Messages
2,654
Likes
4,111
God knows what intentions are residing in the mind of our present airchief when he supports Pliatus with such brave heart intentions!!!!!!!!!!

Is he the IAF chief or Swiss Air force chief?
He is Chief of AF of bribe nation.
 

Dinesh_Kumar

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
518
Likes
231
HTT-32's stall problems are not yet solved. Last crash killed 2 experienced instructors. HTT-32's airframes have life upto 2025, if problem can be solved. Many parents of pilots killed petition to meet the Chief and demand to know why their sons have been killed, and he has to answer them.Even i, as a layman, would hesitate to support HTT-40 solution of HAL, unless the problems and issues are solved. After doing some quick searching, i find HAL officials silent on HTT-32 fleet grounded (When Su-30 and Dhruv were grounded, HAL had promised to sort issues, and fleets were re-inducted). Best "fix" HAL has come up with is a parachute, to land the plane after it has stalled ! The CAG have described the HTT-32 as outdated and having safety problems, which HAL have not contested.

PC-7 is proven, safe and reliable platform. Instructors and IAF Commanders can concentrate on getting rookies up and running as per schedules, and concentrate on core issues instead of fire fighting , and being blamed for pliots deaths, etc.

To move forward, and support indigestion, HAL should be given a mandate to vigorously solve the HTT-32's problems, make design changes, and document the issues. When this is done, they can build the next generation , based on the HTT-32.

HTT-32's problems are not simple fixes. The probable culprits are the Engine, Fuel Injection system and the Air frame itself. The OEM, Lycoming is not willing to support.

I support indegenisation, even scrap the MMRCA deal and induct LCA seems good idea. But HTT-40 is a dangerous proposition, and safe and reliable platform is better choice.


God knows what intentions are residing in the mind of our present airchief when he supports Pliatus with such brave heart intentions!!!!!!!!!!

Is he the IAF chief or Swiss Air force chief?
 
Last edited:

sayareakd

Mod
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
17,734
Likes
18,951
Country flag
I think forces have just found out that their is more money in making war machine, then operating them..................
 

Patriot

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
1,761
Likes
544
Country flag
I think forces have just found out that their is more money in making war machine, then operating them..................
IMO IAF people are not a bit like Indian Navy who set up their design team to design their ships & systems and also get fully involved with dvelopment work with DRDO labs .

Recently what IAF doing with Pilatus deal & HTT-40 creates doubts about their intentions.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top