IAF MiG-21 shoots down Pakistani F-16

[Foxbat]

The crash claims aren't false.
They are backed up by a lot of publicly available information.

Here's PAF F16 fleet by versions with tail numbers.
View attachment 40790


Here's each aircraft that has crashed with their tail number and version
View attachment 40791


And these are the air bases and units that one needs to look out for to get a proof that a specific tail number is missing.
View attachment 40792

It's good to not blindly believe everything you read online. Some points to think over:

1. Where is the PAF F-16 Abhinandan shot down?
2. Serial 85720 supposedly shot down by his wingman, NYTimes and WashingPost newspapers say it was a Afghan Mig-23 shot it down, who is lying?
3. What public information are you talking about? Does each country share with the world how many F-16s it has and how many crashed everyday and its believed to be 100% correct? Then I guess no PAF F-16 has been lost in 10+ years and 1 in 25 years! How is the PAF able to have an attrition rate 1/7th of vastly richer western nations with very little money, high usage and large periods without spares support?
4. Read my post from the previous page, NATO spokesperson claims a F-16 crashed due to engine failure, on other page on the same website (F-16.net) it says it was because a missile exploded nearby!
5. If this website(F-16.net) is 100% correct then it's best to read everything and believe it: "Before we start analyzing the data, it's important to note that our attrition data for countries like Egypt and Israel are partially incomplete - actual numbers are likely to be higher. Since these countries are below average on this graph and have sizeable inventories, the worldwide fleet average is probably underestimated on this graph."

Source: http://www.f-16.net/fleet-reports_article5.html

The website itself claims its not 100% accurate !

 

[Bhurki]

It's good to not blindly believe everything you read online. Some points to think over:

1. Where is the PAF F-16 Abhinandan shot down?
2. Serial 85720 supposedly shot down by his wingman, NYTimes and WashingPost newspapers say it was a Afghan Mig-23 shot it down, who is lying?
3. What public information are you talking about? Does each country share with the world how many F-16s it has and how many crashed everyday and its believed to be 100% correct? Then I guess no PAF F-16 has been lost in 10+ years and 1 in 25 years! How is the PAF able to have an attrition rate 1/7th of vastly richer western nations with very little money, high usage and large periods without spares support?
4. Read my post from the previous page, NATO spokesperson claims a F-16 crashed due to engine failure, on other page on the same website (F-16.net) it says it was because a missile exploded nearby!
5. If this website(F-16.net) is 100% correct then it's best to read everything and believe it: "Before we start analyzing the data, it's important to note that our attrition data for countries like Egypt and Israel are partially incomplete - actual numbers are likely to be higher. Since these countries are below average on this graph and have sizeable inventories, the worldwide fleet average is probably underestimated on this graph."

Source: http://www.f-16.net/fleet-reports_article5.html

The website itself claims its not 100% accurate !

Pakistan crashes are quite public..
Numbers don't just magically increment or decrement by themselves.. All procurement by PAF is well documented and all crashes as well.
I'm just saying you can easily try to figure out if a tail number is missing. If people are still trying to mystify the situation, then there's obviously some hidden interests.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Pakistan crashes are quite public..
Numbers don't just magically increment or decrement by themselves.. All procurement by PAF is well documented and all crashes as well.
I'm just saying you can easily try to figure out if a tail number is missing. If people are still trying to mystify the situation, then there's obviously some hidden interests.

Pakis can handle flow of information much better than India simply because the military there can do as it likes. That is why India's version has more credibility.

 

[Floydian]

Joe Sameer said in event that couple of AMRAAMs were fired from only 30 Km far from Su30MKI. There's misconception that all AMRAAMs were fired from D1max. He further states that this validated Indian tactics and EW capabilities in real world. No wonder Paki closed their airspace for 5 months and ran to China for PL15 in panic.

He further stated that only 1 AIM120 hit out of 6 launch has skewed its kill probability which is why USA may be covering up facts of shortcoming of its weapon systems.

But why on earth didn't our Su-30s fire one odd back at them?!!

 

[DivineHeretic]

Pakistan crashes are quite public..
Numbers don't just magically increment or decrement by themselves.. All procurement by PAF is well documented and all crashes as well.
I'm just saying you can easily try to figure out if a tail number is missing. If people are still trying to mystify the situation, then there's obviously some hidden interests.

Couldn't be further from the truth.
While direct purchased from OEM by PAFPAF generally well documented, PAF has been less than forthcoming regarding their purchases of second hand aircrafts.
It is now on record that the nature of fleet of F16s PAF purchased from Jordan(?) is different from what the official communications would have us believe. Go through Joe Sameer's Twitter feed. You can find clear evidence of this obfuscation.
Finally, a JF-17 went down in Arabian Sea in 2017-18 on a routine night training exercise, killing the pilot. PAF basically effaced it's records, effectively removing the very end of existence of that aircraft from their country. People in the Know in a certain forum commented directly regarding this loss.

Thus your belief on PAF's communications are fundamentally flawed.

 

[abhay rajput]

Interesting article, just that it completely contradict her article from March 2019:bounce:

Hard Lessons from Pulwama to Balakot and Beyond


Pakistani hubris and American cupidity



C Christine Fair | 07 Mar, 2019

Source: https://openthemagazine.com/essay/hard-lessons-from-pulwama-to-balakot-and-beyond/

"India, in turn, shot down a Pakistani jet which crashed on Pakistan’s side of the LoC. The fate of that pilot is unclear: Indian sources claim he was lynched by Pakistanis who mistook him for an Indian pilot while Pakistani sources deny this claim without offering alternative explanations."

Why do we bother calling these "Western Experts" when we already know the truth ?

Now a days all journalist

Look at this.........................

Look at this.........................

But why on earth didn't our Su-30s fire one odd back at them?!!

They were at 15k feet and f16 were at 38kfeet , r77 doesn't go up that much .. by the time they defeated the missile , f16 were already turning back.

 

[ezsasa]

But why on earth didn't our Su-30s fire one odd back at them?!!

Because they are on top of GHQ 60 km away during those 90 secs of action.

From my memory, other can correct this if I am wrong.

 

[Absolut_Vodka]

But why on earth didn't our Su-30s fire one odd back at them?!!

Tail chase distance of r77 is 20 km and that's where our BVR should be fired from because F16s would turn on being fired upon.

 

[Bhurki]

Finally, a JF-17 went down in Arabian Sea in 2017-18 on a routine night training exercise, killing the pilot. PAF basically effaced it's records, effectively removing the very end of existence of that aircraft from their country.

How can that happen? Afaik, Jf17 tail numbers are one of the easiest to understand and aligned serially. (Yy-Bxx)
Do you suggest they made an extra aircraft, painted the same tail number to the one that was lost? I mean it sounds hard to justify...
The easiest thing that can be for IAF is for example say.. We had shot down an F16(signified by electronic signature) taking off from XXX base ( Awacs info), giving the squadron to which it belongs and then its.quite straightforward to tally the numbers.
I can't manage to think about pak air force having such a huge psy capability of being able to clandestinely procure and replace such expensive aircraft or get them completely upgraded without a major force like IAF taking notice, thats what Directorate of Air intelligence exists for.
By the way, is.there.info about what base the f16 took off from?( has to be sargodha afaik)

 

[vampyrbladez]

How can that happen? Afaik, Jf17 tail numbers are one of the easiest to understand and aligned serially. (Yy-Bxx)
Do you suggest they made an extra aircraft, painted the same tail number to the one that was lost? I mean it sounds hard to justify...
The easiest thing that can be for IAF is for example say.. We had shot down an F16(signified by electronic signature) taking off from XXX base ( Awacs info), giving the squadron to which it belongs and then its.quite straightforward to tally the numbers.
I can't manage to think about pak air force having such a huge psy capability of being able to clandestinely procure and replace such expensive aircraft or get them completely upgraded without a major force like IAF taking notice, thats what Directorate of Air intelligence exists for.
By the way, is.there.info about what base the f16 took off from?( has to be sargodha afaik)

Already done that long ago. Refer to the Sameer Joshi's article.

https://medium.com/@sameerjoshi73/a-shaheens-last-fall-6630e7412f65

 

[Foxbat]

How can that happen? Afaik, Jf17 tail numbers are one of the easiest to understand and aligned serially. (Yy-Bxx)
Do you suggest they made an extra aircraft, painted the same tail number to the one that was lost? I mean it sounds hard to justify...
The easiest thing that can be for IAF is for example say.. We had shot down an F16(signified by electronic signature) taking off from XXX base ( Awacs info), giving the squadron to which it belongs and then its.quite straightforward to tally the numbers.
I can't manage to think about pak air force having such a huge psy capability of being able to clandestinely procure and replace such expensive aircraft or get them completely upgraded without a major force like IAF taking notice, thats what Directorate of Air intelligence exists for.
By the way, is.there.info about what base the f16 took off from?( has to be sargodha afaik)

For a nation that denies involvement of thousands of its troops in a border war for years, refuses to accept dead bodies of its soldiers and celebrates a war in which it was dismembered as a victory, how hard can it be to repaint a tail number?

FYI: In the 1971 war Pakistan got F-104s from Jordan to add to its existing fleet and the IAF claimed many were shot down including some over Pakistani territory. The PAF denied all losses over Pakistan territory. They never revealed how many they received and how many were returned after the war. Most likely they replaced their losses with the Jordanian Starfighters.

 

[Bhurki]

Already done that long ago. Refer to the Sameer Joshi's article.

https://medium.com/@sameerjoshi73/a-shaheens-last-fall-6630e7412f65

I've seen these analysis' a few times now, and although they prove the point that a F16 may have been shot down.. Nothing will be like nail in the coffin as telling exactly which squadron lost its jet.
And that shouldn't be too hard because PAF has only 5 f16 squadrons operating from 3 airbases. Telling just what airbase the jet belongs to will cut down the jets to be identified to just 16(bholari)-28(others) in number.
This article didnt say what airbase the downed jet took off from.

 

[Bhurki]

For a nation that denies involvement of thousands of its troops in a border war for years, refuses to accept dead bodies of its soldiers and celebrates a war in which it was dismembered as a victory,

It doesn't matter what they denied or agreed on, what matters is what India was able to prove through the visuals of a general surrendering to the whoever asked it about the war. And therefore, pakistan forces' denial didnt really achieve anything.
Now, the denial certainly has higher weightage against the proofs put forward by IAF because there's not a hard visual to show for it.

how hard can it be to repaint a tail number?

Really hard when someones tallying the entire squadrons strength..

FYI: In the 1971 war Pakistan got F-104s from Jordan to add to its existing fleet and the IAF claimed many were shot down including some over Pakistani territory. The PAF denied all losses over Pakistan territory. They never revealed how many they received and how many were returned after the war. Most likely they replaced their losses with the Jordanian Starfighters.

Agreed.
But this isnt 1970s. Movement of major assets such as combat jets especially fighters is closely followed by adversaries with precision. Today, jordan can't.just transfer a squadron of F16 to pakistan and act like nothing happened. Even turkey which thinks of itself as representative of US MIC in middle east and south asia cqnt move spares internationally without OEM permission.

 

[Neptune]

So basically there are almost 4-5 air to air kill of F-16 when USofA call it undefeated. LOL.

2 confirmed F-16 shot down in air to air combat (Turkish and Pakistani) one F-16 claimed shot down by India but disputed by Pakistan.

Many shot down from SAMs or possibly more aircraft but mascaraed as SAM kills. The following is probably not a complete list and it does not take into account losses in Afghanistan or Iraq 2003 and onwards because.


1987 Pakistani F-16 shot down (air-to-air kill)

1996 Turkish F-16 shot down (air-to-air kill)

1991 Gulf War US F-16 shot down (SAM claimed)

1991 Gulf War US F-16 shot down (SAM claimed)

1991 Gulf War US F-16 shot down (SAM claimed)

1995 Bosnia US 1991 US F-16 shot down (SAM claimed)

1999 Yugoslavia US F-16 shot down (SAM claimed)

2015 Bahraini F-16 shot down (Hauthi SAM)

2015 Moroccan F-16 shot down (Hauthi SAM)

2017 Jordanian F-16 crashed (Hauthi claimed responsiblity/ SAM)

2018 Israeli F-16 shot down by Syrian SAM.

 

[Neptune]

How can that happen? Afaik, Jf17 tail numbers are one of the easiest to understand and aligned serially. (Yy-Bxx)
Do you suggest they made an extra aircraft, painted the same tail number to the one that was lost? I mean it sounds hard to justify...
The easiest thing that can be for IAF is for example say.. We had shot down an F16(signified by electronic signature) taking off from XXX base ( Awacs info), giving the squadron to which it belongs and then its.quite straightforward to tally the numbers.
I can't manage to think about pak air force having such a huge psy capability of being able to clandestinely procure and replace such expensive aircraft or get them completely upgraded without a major force like IAF taking notice, thats what Directorate of Air intelligence exists for.
By the way, is.there.info about what base the f16 took off from?( has to be sargodha afaik)

The issue with Pakistan as well as the Middle East is that many of the countries are run by Islamic military dictatorships. They are known feed and brainwash their own countrymen with lies and propaganda. In Pakistan’s case they even deceive their allies such as the United States. US officials have stated that Pakistanis are pathological liars. In 1987 they initially denied losing an F-16 and then made up a crazy story about friendly fire. Soviet pilots that faced Pakistani pilots also exposed Pakistanis as liars.


This proves nothing about any F-16 but it gives time to pause and think:

Not related to Pakistan but still a good example of how these Islamic dictatorships cover up losses. Iran’s top F-14 pilot and tactician was shot down by an Iraqi Mig-23. Iran basically tried to erase Hashem All-e-Agha from history, when it was obvious he died, the Iranians made rumors to ease their humiliation, rumors circulated Hashem All-e-Agha Was shot down by a up to dozen Mirages, then even more absurd rumors surfaced that he was killed when his F-14 collided with an anti ship missile. Iranians had a hard time swallow the fact that an Iraqi, Sunni pilot flying a Mig-23 downed their top pilot in an F-14.





https://medium.com/war-is-boring/ir...-all-e-agha-irans-top-f-14-pilot-bbd4c6a48313


“This might unsurprising, considering Iran’s fascistic regime and its ongoing efforts to falsify not only the history of its armed forces, but of the entire country. However, the lengths officials have gone to to avoid acknowledging Iran’s top F-14 pilot are quite extraordinary.

Contrary to standard practice in Iran, there are no magazine articles about Hashem All-e-Agha, no books, no spectacular movies, no T.V. documentaries and no murals decorating the streets of Iranian cities. Tehran apparently doesn’t want the world to how one of its deadliest aerial warriors ultimately fell in battle.”

 

[tsunami]

2 confirmed F-16 shot down in air to air combat (Turkish and Pakistani) one F-16 claimed shot down by India but disputed by Pakistan.

Many shot down from SAMs or possibly more aircraft but mascaraed as SAM kills. The following is probably not a complete list and it does not take into account losses in Afghanistan or Iraq 2003 and onwards because.


1987 Pakistani F-16 shot down (air-to-air kill)

1996 Turkish F-16 shot down (air-to-air kill)

1991 Gulf War US F-16 shot down (SAM claimed)

1991 Gulf War US F-16 shot down (SAM claimed)

1991 Gulf War US F-16 shot down (SAM claimed)

1995 Bosnia US 1991 US F-16 shot down (SAM claimed)

1999 Yugoslavia US F-16 shot down (SAM claimed)

2015 Bahraini F-16 shot down (Hauthi SAM)

2015 Moroccan F-16 shot down (Hauthi SAM)

2017 Jordanian F-16 crashed (Hauthi claimed responsiblity/ SAM)

2018 Israeli F-16 shot down by Syrian SAM.

I believe Greek's never claimed the kill for turkish F-16 and Pakistani also dispute 1987 kill.

 

[Neptune]

I believe Greek's never claimed the kill for turkish F-16 and Pakistani also dispute 1987 kill.

Turkey admitted Greece shoot down their F-16.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

Turkey admitted Greece shoot down their F-16.

..and the Greeks say they did not shoot down the F-16 and that it suffered a "control failure"
The death of Captain Nail Erdogan is not the only loss from the juvenile antics over the Aegean skies between Turkey and Greece. Turkish and Greek jets have been playing these games for many year but this was the first and only incident of accidental launch of a missile, according to a statement attributed to the Greek pilot suggest he did not intend to fire his missile at the Turkish F-16.

The Greek Council of Appeals Court rejected Turkey’s request concerning the pilot, Greece’s Kathimerini Daily reports. Athens also denies the downing of the jet, and says that Turkish pilot reported a control failure. It also claims that the jet violated Greece’s airspace because one of the Turkish pilots was rescued in the Greek flight information region, RIA Novosti reports.

https://www.rt.com/news/343467-turkey-greek-pilot-sentence/

Finally the point is simple, you allege the Pentagon for some strange reason prefer to attribute a combat loss to SAM kill over loss to another fighter. The truth is the Russians SAMs are far more lethal than their fighter jets...has been for many years.

 

[Neptune]

..and the Greeks say they did not shoot down the F-16 and that it suffered a "control failure"
The death of Captain Nail Erdogan is not the only loss from the juvenile antics over the Aegean skies between Turkey and Greece. Turkish and Greek jets have been playing these games for many year but this was the first and only incident of accidental launch of a missile, according to a statement attributed to the Greek pilot suggest he did not intend to fire his missile at the Turkish F-16.

So in other words you are agreeing that the Greeks shot down the F-16 but not the way you claim. The Turks finally admitted it and the Greeks were flaunting the kill mark on their Mirage. In public the Greeks might make some excuses but everyone knows it was no accident. The common denominator is that often when a US made aircraft is shot down its friendly fire (Pakistani excuse) SAM (US excuse), or colliding with anti ship missiles (Iranian excuse).

Erdoğan’s children and lawyer applied to the Greek authorities for filing a criminal lawsuit against the Greek pilot, as Turkish officials submitted a petition claiming that the jet was downed and Erdoğan was killed intentionally.

Accordingly, the Ankara Public Prosecutor’s Office completed the investigation into the incident after obtaining radar and conversation records of the two jets from the General Staff. The radar and conversation records of the Greek pilot were also translated into Turkish, as Çiçekli gave his testimony and filed a complaint.

It was no mistake, the F-16 violated Greek airspace and was killed. The Greek pilot had to perform many sequences to fire the missile. Missiles don’t just “accidentally” fire themselves unless you believe the Greek pilot accidentally intercepted the F-16, accidentally maneuvered it in place, accidentally got a weapons lock, accidentally selected the type of missile and then accidentally disengaged the fire safety and finally accidentally squeezed the trigger

https://www.rt.com/news/343467-turkey-greek-pilot-sentence/

Finally the point is simple, you allege the Pentagon for some strange reason prefer to attribute a combat loss to SAM kill over loss to another fighter. The truth is the Russians SAMs are far more lethal than their fighter jets...has been for many years.

The US covered up Scott Speicher’s shoot down as as SAM kill. His fellow wingman as well as AWACS operators even acknowledged it was not a SAM that killed him. That didn’t stop the NAVY and Pentagon from pushing the lie. If it wasn’t for the fact that he was MIA which prompted the CIA to reveal its finding then the US government would have still continued their original claim.




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Speicher

The U.S. Navy maintained in a 1997 document that Speicher was downed by a surface-to-air missile.However, an unclassified summary of a 2001 CIA report suggests that Speicher's aircraft was shot down by a missile fired from an Iraqi aircraft, most likely a MiG-25, flown by Lieutenant Zuhair Dawood, 84th squadron of the Iraqi Air Force.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/ira...the-first-night-of-operation-desert-storm/amp

Dawoud continued his story. “I reported what happened to the GCI and he told me to return to my original intercept course as I had ‘targets at 38km [20.5 miles]. ‘ Meanwhile, my radar became ready. I locked a target 38km [20.5 miles] from me and at 29km [15.6 miles] I fired [the] R-40RD missile from under my right wing. I kept the target locked with my radar [un]till I witnessed a huge explosion in front of me. I kept looking for the aircraft going down spirally to the ground with fire engulfing it.’

By the way that Iraqi pilot almost shot down an A-6 the same night. He came so close to an A-6 he seen the cockpit lights but Iraqi ground controllers were afraid it was one of their Mig-29s.


SAMs are mobile and can be hidden, aircraft usually are not. US aircraft were effective because they overwhelmed a poorly trained enemy by usually bombing their airfields, radars, communications, depots and headquarters and then they attacked in waves supported by AWACS. It wasn’t unusual for several dozen US fighters to engage a lone Iraqi aircraft and in many instances the US actually failed to shoot down Migs despite shooting off insane amounts missiles towards the Iraqis.

 

[Foxbat]

There may be many more losses of Western aircraft to the Iraqi Air Force. Many losses to SAMs were probably air to air kills:

This is the first hand account of Capt. Jameel Sayhood - a MiG-29A - pilot Iraqi AF squadron 39 - who claims he shot down a Royal Air Force Tornado GR.1 during Desert Storm in 1991.

"I switched the radio frequency to the AD sector and the GCI notified me that an enemy aircraft is to the right and directly below you!!! I turned my head to the right and noticed an airplane and since the sun was high in the sky I noticed its shadow on the desert floor (it was a RAF Tornado no doubt), I also saw the sun bright reflection over their helmets !!

I estimated the distance 500 m no more (1,640 feet) and apparently they didn't noticed me... I manoeuvred the aircraft to be behind and above them , I selected R-60MK heat seeking missile and a HUD symbology appeared (ER) which means target acquired with high beep in my ZS-5 helmet and I fired.... Within second they turned their heads toward me... it appear they noticed the flash of the missile or their RWR warned them . That was the first and last time they seen me. A huge explosion rocked the plane and soon it was engulfed in fire and crashed to the desert floor. No parachute seen since there was no time. They were flying at only 70 meters (230 feet). My wingman who was delayed in taking off. Now he took off and was behind me notified me that he saw at least one other aircraft dropping its bombs in the desert and flee "

The Royal Air Force acknowledges this loss and lists the reason as "unknown cause". Another example of western propaganda discrediting their opponent's success and attributing aircraft losses to either mechanical failure or ground fire.

Out of 36 Tornadoes sent by the RAF to Iraq, 6 were shot down.

On the sixth day (of the war), concern at the high level of RAF losses - it had flown 4 per cent of the missions and lost 25 per cent of the aircraft

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/25/...sky-mission-low-level-raids-on-airfields.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/britons-died-in-gulf-war-due-to-mod-interference-1321938.html

Saw this old thread on F-16.net: http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=3110&start=15

The Iraqi Air Force claims 8 air to air kills in the first Gulf War including the one described above by the Mig-29.