IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgraded Mi

Kunal Biswas

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Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

According to the Chief of DRDO the fighters already in production and expecting 3-4 at the end of this year ..
The link is posted in Tejas thread, If he said so than i have to take his words ..

The way i see, IAF was neglecting the entire project from beginning and now in a situation which IAF is responsible for itself..
I would also say, They should have pressed on there true priorities and Should Have order X number with proper force projection keeping in mind future wars and demand for both man and machine during the Wars ..

Its not too late either, there is still time for decision and work ..

The airframes for SP-1 and SP-2 have been lying incomplete for two years. The final configuration LRUs have not been assembled yet, they will start arriving only once all the software/hardware/optimisation according to the IOC-2 standards have been finalised.

My point is regarding people who keep whining the forces should order X number of equipment without keeping in mind demand projections, budget constraints and the whole engineering process that goes into manufacturing.
 

Twinblade

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Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

According to the Chief of DRDO the fighters already in production and expecting 3-4 at the end of this year ..
The link is posted in Tejas thread, If he said so than i have to take his words ..
Not happening, that was the aim when the IOC-2 was September. That is old news, the assembly shall commence only after IOC-2. First deliveries will happen mid 2014 (April to June)

The way i see, IAF was neglecting the entire project from beginning and now in a situation which IAF is responsible for itself..
I like to give credit where it's due, both for good and bad. IAF is responsible only for a part of delays, not the entire project. The man machine interface had to be redesigned to suit IAF's operational needs, but then again.
Delays due to fuel system redesign, not IAF's fault.
Delays in radar and it's integration, not IAF's fault.
Delays in first prototype roll out, not IAF's fault.
Delays in flight of first prototype, not IAF's fault.
Delays in roll put of every prototype, not IAF's fault.
Absence of IFR probes, not IAF's fault.
Delays in technical documentation, not IAF's fault.

They should have pressed on there true priorities and Should Have order X number with proper force projection keeping in mind future wars and demand for both man and machine during the Wars ..
The number of Mk-1 orders are fairly realistic. By the time those 40 fighters would be delivered, Tejas-2 would be ready to go into production and there are already large orders for Tejas-2, a product that is still on drawing board. Had Tejas been in production 5-6 years back, the orders for Mk-1 would have been 80-150. The demand vs supply graph is so skewed now that we do not have the capability to produce that many fighters anymore, hence the MiGs will have to fly a while longer.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

Its is true what you said About IOC-2 as i was not aware of latest developments..

One cannot turn back from its mistakes which are done back in days which set the chain reactions ..

================

There is no where says production is halted, Its on and things will be placed in there places as things devlops ..

Not happening, that was the aim when the IOC-2 was September. That is old news, the assembly shall commence only after IOC-2. First deliveries will happen mid 2014 (April to June)

I like to give credit where it's due, both for good and bad. IAF is responsible only for a part of delays, not the entire project. The man machine interface had to be redesigned to suit IAF's operational needs, but then again.
Delays due to fuel system redesign, not IAF's fault.
Delays in radar and it's integration, not IAF's fault.
Delays in first prototype roll out, not IAF's fault.
Delays in flight of first prototype, not IAF's fault.
Delays in roll put of every prototype, not IAF's fault.
Absence of IFR probes, not IAF's fault.
Delays in technical documentation, not IAF's fault.
 

ersakthivel

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Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

The question you should be asking is, why aren't Tejas being produced in numbers.. oh wait... the number of Tejas delivered till date is too large to fathom ;). Only two birds will be delivered next year, 8-12 the year after that, another 8-12 the next year and 12-16 the year following it before LRIP of Tejas-2 starts. And this is the best case scenario that is being talked about, assuming our sub vendors can deliver that fast. How many MiG-21 and MiG-27 that have to be replaced ? over 350. How many years will it take to make up those numbers for a maximum production rate of 20 Tejas and 12 Rafale an year ? around 12 years. All the subvendors will have to deliver components at around five to six times the volumes that are being delivered today for Su-30Mki, and that too belonging to different product families and being tested to different standards and quality checks. While you can rant about fictional Tejas squadrons that will not exist for good part of another decade, IAF will have squadron infrastructure and pilot skills that will wither away.
production rate is lower because IAF is giving just 40 fighter order for tejas mk-1.

While IAF is delighted to retain the initial 40 SU-30 is non weaponised form for a decade it is setting a different standard for Tejas with IOC-1 , IOC-2. WHen the money was given to the Russians there was no such thing called SU-30 MKI. The plane was built for IAF specification using IAF money . IAF did not ask for FOC or IOC for fully tested Su-30 MKI before putting the money. But when it comes to Tejas it is far different story.

US pushed F-16 into service mere three years from the date of first flight.

Most of the delays on LCA by IAF happened in it's initial years when it failed to set aside any money from it's budget and insisted on controlling the project after presiding over 4 decades of failures to put into service any meaningful fighter platform with it's ,"joint management " of projects with HAL.

Only due to it's opposition in early years 4 or 5 years were lost when allocation for TDs were released much later after PD was finished.

And it was the opposition from IAF which resulted in a truncated program of two TDs first to prove all the tech and delayed production of further PVs and LSPs. Delays in radar and engine did not affect the project as a whole because long before LRDE used the Israeli help in radar and for the past five years GE engine is readily available for tejas Mk-1, whose prototypes were flying on these engines for decades.

Unlike the MARUT failure where the fighter was designed with a presumed availability of higher power engine , ADA built tejas around GE engine.

Even then the short sighted on the part of IAF which gave only lower weight , lower range , lower launch stress air to air missile requirements initially for tejas ASR , and changing it subsequently to higher weight missiles which led to FSED phase two with complete redesign of wing added a few more years to the delays.

And nuclear test related sanctions made the delay by IAF much worse. If at all IAf set aside some funds and fully backed the project in earlier periods much of the Fly by wire software work would have finished by the time India carried SAKTHI series of nuclear tests. These sanctions delayed the project even further.

Since IAF joined the program late in 2006 as per Philip Rajkumar's book much of the 200 odd requests for actions from IAF further added their own share of delay in redesigning.

had the IAF put up a few hundred crores besides what ADA got from the GOI and participated with full commitments from earlier times at least 6 or seven years worth of delay could have been cut short.

So if IAF was desperate it too has a part responsibility for the blame.
 
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ersakthivel

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Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

The question you should be asking is, why aren't Tejas being produced in numbers.. oh wait... the number of Tejas delivered till date is too large to fathom ;). Only two birds will be delivered next year, 8-12 the year after that, another 8-12 the next year and 12-16 the year following it before LRIP of Tejas-2 starts. And this is the best case scenario that is being talked about, assuming our sub vendors can deliver that fast. How many MiG-21 and MiG-27 that have to be replaced ? over 350. How many years will it take to make up those numbers for a maximum production rate of 20 Tejas and 12 Rafale an year ? around 12 years. All the subvendors will have to deliver components at around five to six times the volumes that are being delivered today for Su-30Mki, and that too belonging to different product families and being tested to different standards and quality checks. While you can rant about fictional Tejas squadrons that will not exist for good part of another decade, IAF will have squadron infrastructure and pilot skills that will wither away.
production rate is lower because IAF is giving just 40 fighter order for tejas mk-1.

While IAF is delighted to pay for and retain the initial 40 SU-30 which were not built to its specs in non weaponised form for a decade ,

it is setting a different standard for Tejas with IOC-1 , IOC-2. WHen the money was given to the Russians there was no such thing called SU-30 MKI. The plane was built for IAF specification using IAF money . IAF did not ask for FOC or IOC for fully tested Su-30 MKI before putting the money. But when it comes to Tejas it is far different story.

Even the flight manuals for Su-30 MKI were supposed to be prepared by IAF pilots as per a few forum posts.

Even now a higher number of orders for Tejas mk-1 will surely result in 16 per year capacity production line and fast filling up of retiring MIG-21 squadrons with Tejas mk-1.

Surely 60 tejas mk-1 won't undermine IAf fighting strength in a way the obsolete , unreliable 350 odd Mig fighters are doing so now. By refusing to gtive just another 20 extra tejas mk-1 orders IAf is adding to the delay.

What if the forex crisis worsens and the new Govt after the elections cancel the MMRCA?. Then IAF will give more orders for TEjas mk-1.the possibility of this happening is very high.

Since the MRCA tender itself is legally flawed because initial tender specs insisted on total life cycle costs and suddenly a few years before it was changed to per unit cost. And a few officers have put file notes covering their reservations over this as well.

Why MOD-IAF combine insisted on total life cycle cost as the deciding criteria initially and then changed to per unit cost?

Coupled with forex crunch the IAF certainly can not hope to get 30 billion for RAFLE and another 30 billion for FGFA simultaneously from the GOI. So it must have to make a choice someday. It is the stupidity of the IAF which gets exposed when the chief says ,"there is no back up plan" . It is a lie. Infat Tejas mk-1 and Mk-2 can cover the shortfall to some extant and more Su-30 MKIs which were completely indigenized recently can simply fill the gap.

The MMRCA originated as an outright buy of 120 odd Mirage-2000s initially. Then only it morphed into the present MMRCA tender. So it is a blatant lie on IAF chief's behalf to say there is no back up plan if MMRCA fighter fails to materialize.

US pushed F-16 into service mere three years from the date of first flight.

Most of the delays on LCA by IAF happened in it's initial years when it failed to set aside any money from it's budget and insisted on controlling the project after presiding over 4 decades of failures to put into service any meaningful fighter platform with it's ,"joint management " of projects with HAL.

Only due to it's opposition in early years 4 or 5 years were lost when allocation for TDs were released much later after PD was finished.

And it was the opposition from IAF which resulted in a truncated program of two TDs first to prove all the tech and delayed production of further PVs and LSPs. Delays in radar and engine did not affect the project as a whole because long before LRDE used the Israeli help in radar and for the past five years GE engine is readily available for tejas Mk-1, whose prototypes were flying on these engines for decades.

Unlike the MARUT failure where the fighter was designed with a presumed availability of higher power engine , ADA built tejas around GE engine.

Even then the short sighted on the part of IAF which gave only lower weight , lower range , lower launch stress air to air missile requirements initially for tejas ASR , and changing it subsequently to higher weight missiles which led to FSED phase two with complete redesign of wing added a few more years to the delays.

And nuclear test related sanctions made the delay by IAF much worse. If at all IAf set aside some funds and fully backed the project in earlier periods much of the Fly by wire software work would have finished by the time India carried SAKTHI series of nuclear tests. These sanctions delayed the project even further.

Since IAF joined the program late in 2006 as per Philip Rajkumar's book much of the 200 odd requests for actions from IAF further added their own share of delay in redesigning.

had the IAF put up a few hundred crores besides what ADA got from the GOI and participated with full commitments from earlier times at least 6 or seven years worth of delay could have been cut short.

So if IAF was desperate it too has a part responsibility for the blame.
 

ersakthivel

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Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

Tejas is far far far from ready to justify more orders. Even Pentagon has a handful of orders out of the 2400+ they need.



We will be lucky to have two full squadrons of LCA.



LCA was supposed to be ready at the same time the Mig-21 Bisons were upgraded. LCA was supposed to replace the older Mig-21s a decade ago, not a decade from now.

I will repeat again. LCA debacle is not IAF's fault.
The fundings for two TDs were released in 1993. Mig -21 upgrade was also carried out in 1990s.

SO there is no way a fully RSS fly by wire fighter to materialize within 7 years of funding for just two TDs to be inducted into IAF by 2000.

IAF knew this and thats why MIG-21s were upgraded.

If at all ADA heeded the advice of some sections of IAF to make a improved version of MIG-21 in place of TEjAS it would have been below the level of JF-17 and would be obsolete by now.

Even when Tejas mk-1 compares well with Mirage-2000 in some close combat specs IAF is not ready to give orders for more than 40 fighters.

So if at all ADA produced a MIG-21 version of TEJAS in 2000 with stable flight profile and conventional controls with worse specs it would have certainly met the fate of MARUT and seen only a ceremonial induction with Grippen or more Mirage-2000s taking it's place by now leading to more bleeding FOREX outgo.

Even now a sixty plus order for tejas mk-1 will lead to a bigger production line with close to 16 fighters per year.
 
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ladder

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Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

Dr Avinash Chander says we have a capacity to Manufacture 2 LCAs per year against a demand of 20 . More in the link

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/nl/2013/NL_Oct_2013_web.pdf

Page 3 & 4
To add to it
Defence behemoth Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which has an order to deliver 20 Tejas to the air force by 2016, is able to manufacture only two aircraft a year due to shortage of engineers and capacity constraints.
Austerity drive holds up hiring by DRDO
 

ersakthivel

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Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

He said two this year because IOC -2 is yet to be completed.

Don't misunderstand it to make it as if HAL is incapable of making more than 2 tejas for the whole 12 months of an year .

And according to some official releases it can be increased to 16 per year if the need arises.

IAF has given only 40 fighters order in Tejas mk-1 version.

In five years time tejas mk-2 is expected to be ready. So 8 an year normal production capacity is being set up by HAL to fulfill the IAF order.

HAL has sought 1500 cr from GOI to set up a modern production line from the GOI. No one knows the money has been sanctioned or not
 
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ladder

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Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

He said two this year because IOC -2 is yet to be completed.

Don't misunderstand it to make it as if HAL is incapable of making more than 2 tejas for the whole 12 months of an year .

And according to some official releases it can be increased to 16 per year if the need arises.

IAF has given only 40 fighters order in Tejas mk-1 version.

In five years time tejas mk-2 is expected to be ready. So 8 an year normal production capacity is being set up by HAL to fulfill the IAF order.

HAL has sought 1500 cr from GOI to set up a modern production line from the GOI. No one knows the money has been sanctioned or not
I am not contesting what you are saying but my motive of the post was that austerity drive also hits ongoing projects.
If ADA has a deficiency of scientist and engineers then deadlines would have to be extended.

In case of HAL too there was no recruitment of engineers for 3-4 years. ( started last yr again) But to train freshers it takes years.

Govt. could have kept those organisation out of its austerity drive.

But, again after two years we shall forget the staffing problem and put the whole blame on DRDO/ADA for missing the deadline.
 

p2prada

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Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

You have spelt it out yourself. In the previous post you were taking about engine only. I was trying to say engine is not the only requirement. Other tech must be developed for AMCA which is in progress as of now.
I don't know what you are trying to convey, but there is no work going on on the AMCA directly. If you are talking about work being conducted for materials, avionics, radar, production tool design etc, even new fly by light FBW, then I would agree. It is an obvious course of action and I even support it. We need to have the tech ready before jumping into the main program.

What I am saying is the airframe cannot be designed fully without knowing what engine we are going to get. And we are still quite some ways from knowing more about the engine itself. So the program itself is on hold. You can say it is like the time between 1989 and 1993 for LCA where ADA was waiting for the R&D contract.
 

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