IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgraded Mi

[Ray]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

As far as we know, neither the F-18 nor the F-35 were on Carter's ToT list.

Who is Carter?

ex President Carter?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

As far as we know, neither the F-18 nor the F-35 were on Carter's ToT list.

US has NEVER done a TOT for any warplane to NATO allies or Israel.

 

[Twinblade]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

Instead of sitting unarmed without fighters, we could atleast start inducting Tejas into combat role.

Point me in direction of a Tejas assembly line. Oh wait, there is none set up.
Point me in direction of a production standard Tejas with all basic software optimised and ready to be pushed into production. There is none.

IAF has been begging for a half decent product for the last decade and it hasn't been delivered yet, it's not the IAF's fault. Now when it is coming to production, the production numbers cannot be jacked up exponentially. Here HAL is struggling to deliver 14 Su-30 and 18-20 Dhruvs an year (vs a demand of 36 Dhruv an year), the products they have been manufacturing for a very long time and have the vendor chains all established for and you think they can produce 20 Tejas an year on top of that anywhere before 4-5 years ? a brand new product with currently non existant supply chain ? Meanwhile HAL also has to kickstart assembly lines for Rustom-1 (already comitted in several hundreds by armed forces) and LCH (also comitted in hundreds), the strain on the logistics base is going to be incredible no matter how much a brave face our DPSU guys put up. Be realistic, our establishment has not only mucked up in the protracted R&D process, but they are also struggling at the manufacturing end. Where do you thing are we going to get 350 fighters in next 3-4 years to retire all MiG-21 and MiG-27 in the next three to four years. Even if Tejas was in production and IAF wanted to buy 300 fighters, how many years would it have taken to produce that many fighters ? 10 years, at least. How is it the IAFs fault when there is not a single Tejas being produced till date and not a single Rafale in sight. How is it the IAF's fault that not a single Tejas prototype has been delivered on schedule promised by the ADA. How is it the IAF's fault that Tejas has not yet achieved IOC and FOC parameters by now ? Oh wait, IAF set the standards toooooo high (which are in fact lower than what the designers promised and are struggling to achieve IAF's minimum standards on time)

 

[Armand2REP]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

Rafale deal will be signed before the end of this year... guaranteed.

 

[dvdiyen]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

NGFA is on hold because of LCA program. NGFA is AMCA.

I do not agree. AMCA and IUSAV (AURA) projects are alive. But I agree the pace of AMCA project has slowed down.

 

[p2prada]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

I do not agree. AMCA and IUSAV (AURA) projects are alive. But I agree the pace of AMCA project has slowed down.

This isn't about you agreeing, me disagreeing and viceversa. MoD has set unrealistic dates for completion of LCA Mk1. ADA has set unrealistic dates for LCA Mk2. GTRE has set unrealistic requirements for new gen engine. Right now, they are all trying to achieve these goals in a very tight schedule. In light of these facts AMCA is very unrealistic to have crossed even the design stage. Heck what makes you think we can finish designing the AMCA without even finalizing basic engine specs?

RFP was sent out so recently. Vendors will still be waiting for more information from GTRE before releasing the tech they can provide.

This is 2006 news.
The Hindu : Karnataka / Bangalore News : GTRE issues fresh request for proposal for Kaveri engine

It is for the second time that GTRE is sending out a request for proposal for a global engine designer who will partner it either in developing the Kaveri engine, or in launching and developing a new engine.

The request for proposal, which was issued last week, has been sent to two combat aircraft engine designers — Snecma Moteurs of France and NPO-Saturn of Russia.

This is from 2007.
Talks on to finalise partner for Kaveri engine development - The Hindu

Snecma Moteurs of France and Russian combat aircraft design giant NPO-Saturn, both who are yet to reply to the GTRE's second (issued last December) request for proposal (RFP), are seeking to know the details and clarifications required. It is hoped that the meetings, meant to be debriefing sessions, would help resolve these issues.

This is from 2013.
DefenceMin goes global in search for Kaveri partner | Business Standard

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) will no longer ask French aircraft engine builder Snecma to help it in resurrecting the indigenous Kaveri jet engine, which has reached a dead end in development.

Instead, major global aero engine manufacturers will compete in a global tender to partner the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) — the Bangalore-based DRDO engine laboratory — in refining the Kaveri engine to the level where it can power the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), an indigenous, fifth-generation fighter that is on the MoD's long-term horizon.

"We are abandoning the plan for co-development with Snecma. We still need an overseas partner. But it will not be Snecma on a single-vendor basis. We will select our partner through competitive bidding," says Dr CP Ramnarayanan, director, GTRE.

The tender process alone will take 3 years or more followed by 2 more years of contract negotiations. Then comes the design phase and prototype building phase which will take at least 5 years followed by 2 years for testing, all optimistic dates. We are talking 2025 before AMCA can be installed with K-10.

Without an engine AMCA is a dead end. And GTRE's attempts have failed twice already. This is the third attempt.

AURA has its own engine program which is nearing bench tests. ADE is a very realistic organisation. We may end up having the AURA flying before LCA Mk2. They started small instead of shooting for the moon on the first attempt. Also AURA has nothing to do with LCA or AMCA. It is a different department handling the project.

 

[dvdiyen]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

1) You have got one of your facts wrong. AURA is also under ADA only.
2) It is highly ridiculous to say if engine is not ready no other development can take place for project AMCA. LCA Mk-II is under totally a different group itself as of now.

 

[pankaj nema]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

Rafale deal will be signed before the end of this year... guaranteed.

Armand2REP

Have both countries sorted out all issues relating to TOT ; offsets and liability clauses

Please give some more details

 

[pankaj nema]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

@ Armand 2 REP

Here in India we have only bad news regarding MMRCA ie More delays

MMRCA contract will not be signed soon

 

[Armand2REP]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

Armand2REP

Have both countries sorted out all issues relating to TOT ; offsets and liability clauses

Please give some more details

My Dassault source says he saw a memo from the Hollande administration giving an ultimatum to the team and IAF chief gave the same to GoI. There was much more behind the scenes with this news...

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/rafale-deal-critical-for-us-air-chief/article5201791.ece

 

[jmj_overlord]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

My Dassault source says he saw a memo from the Hollande administration giving an ultimatum to the team and IAF chief gave the same to GoI. There was much more behind the scenes with this news...

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/rafale-deal-critical-for-us-air-chief/article5201791.ece

so there is hope that the govt might do something about this before the deal is scrapped ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

The first of few already in production, If not any links which say there are none ..

IAF was never interested in National defense products from beginning which are invaluable in wars ahead, Nor they still have any priority for such cause ..

Gov was never interested in National Industry, Nor they care for People and Country ..

What was your point ?

Point me in direction of a Tejas assembly line. Oh wait, there is none set up.

IAF has been begging for a half decent product for the last decade and it hasn't been delivered yet, it's not the IAF's fault. Now when it is coming to production, the production numbers cannot be jacked up exponentially.How is it the IAF's fault that not a single Tejas prototype has been delivered on schedule promised by the ADA. How is it the IAF's fault that Tejas has not yet achieved IOC and FOC parameters by now ?

our establishment has not only mucked up in the protracted R&D process, but they are also struggling at the manufacturing end. Where do you thing are we going to get 350 fighters in next 3-4 years to retire all MiG-21 and MiG-27 in the next three to four years.

 

[Sridhar]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade


Air Chief Says MMRCA is Doable, No Major Problems In It, No Back-up Plan If MMRCA Fails, No Second Option, Only Opton -'It Has To Work'

Some kind of desperation, pessimism in Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne's voice, as he addressed his last annual IAF Day press conference as Chief, today, in connection with MMRCA.Sample his following statements:

-- Almost everyday MoD is updated. MoD is fully aware. MMRCA is very important project for the IAF
-- No second option. This is the only option and it has to work.
-- If MMRCA is not signed in this year and is signed in 2014, then he first one will arrive in 2017, when the 12th Plan ends.
-- Cant delay this any further.
-- There's no timeline. A proper agreement has to be signed. Cant predict how many months it'll take.
-- HAL and Dassault Aviation are engaged in discussion.
-- Considering depleting force levels, MMRCA and two LCA squadrons have to be inducted by end of 12th Plan, else force levels will go down rapidly.
-- We've lost Joint Secretary AK Bal, which is a huge set-back, as he was the lynch-pin of the project.
-- The new JS will take time to settle down, maybe 3-4 months, so that much more delay, cant say if it'll be signed in this Govt's tenure or not, but we want the new JS to settle as early as possible. But he would take time to understand the process, the DPP etc.
-- Falling rupee will not impact MMRCA.
-- To keep force levels maintained in 12th & 13th Plan, we would give life-extension to one-two fleets.
-- There;s no back-up plan, if MMRCA fails, no second option, its the only option and it has to work.

http://chhindits.blogspot.in/2013/10/air-chief-says-mmrca-is-doable-no-major.html

 

[Ray]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

We can thank the Defence Minister and the Bureaucrats for the sorry state the military is in!

They seem to have seen their parents wedding, because they are riding te backs of those they are setting up for slaughter at the frontiers, being better men and nationalist than them!

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

Great job by the same politicians can not finish an indigenous plane after 20 years (lca)and cannot buy a plane
After 10 years (mrca).

 

[p2prada]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

2) It is highly ridiculous to say if engine is not ready no other development can take place for project AMCA. LCA Mk-II is under totally a different group itself as of now.

Without getting the basic engine design and tech ready, there is no point talking about the aircraft. LCA Mk2 saw a delay of two years because they didn't know if they had to design it with F-414 or EJ-200.

It is no different with AMCA. Earlier, they planned the design based on GTRE's discussion with Snecma since 2009 and even in 2011. Now, its a new tender. So, a wait and watch process.

 

[Twinblade]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

The first of few already in production, If not any links which say there are none ..

The airframes for SP-1 and SP-2 have been lying incomplete for two years. The final configuration LRUs have not been assembled yet, they will start arriving only once all the software/hardware/optimisation according to the IOC-2 standards have been finalised.

What was your point ?

My point is regarding people who keep whining the forces should order X number of equipment without keeping in mind demand projections, budget constraints and the whole engineering process that goes into manufacturing.

 

[dvdiyen]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

Without getting the basic engine design and tech ready, there is no point talking about the aircraft. LCA Mk2 saw a delay of two years because they didn't know if they had to design it with F-414 or EJ-200.

It is no different with AMCA. Earlier, they planned the design based on GTRE's discussion with Snecma since 2009 and even in 2011. Now, its a new tender. So, a wait and watch process.

You have spelt it out yourself. In the previous post you were taking about engine only. I was trying to say engine is not the only requirement. Other tech must be developed for AMCA which is in progress as of now.

 

[rvjpheonix]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

You have spelt it out yourself. In the previous post you were taking about engine only. I was trying to say engine is not the only requirement. Other tech must be developed for AMCA which is in progress as of now.

Do you work at Hal or ADA. Looks like you are sure because you have some firsthand info.

 

[dvdiyen]

Re: IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgrade

Do you work at Hal or ADA. Looks like you are sure because you have some firsthand info.

I am sure about the information. But I cannot divulge anything here. I do not work in any of the DRDO organizations.